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Small Questions v 10023


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Meakar's reign was about a 11-13 years (220/222ac - 233ac) so Bloodraven spent more like a dozen years in the Black Cells (the two sources for this are Mormont's conversation w/ Jon about Aemon Targaryen in AGoT, and Aemon's recollection of coming north when he and sam are traveling to Bravos by ship in AFoC). Aemon speaks of his honor guard providing the greatest pomp of any new recruit since the Dornish Kings were sent in golden fetters. It was specifically Bloodraven's presence that Aemon singles out, from this (and egg's seemingly good relationship w/ BR) I think it's possible that BR went to the wall w/ Dark Sister in hand. A former Hand of the King wielding a Valyrian Steel blade like Dark Sister would probably count as the greatest pomp since Nymeria Martell sent the dornish kings in golden fetters.

The pomp he refers to is related to the ship, and the personal guard of Ser Duncan the Tall, not the prisoners.

"He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

- (Samwell II, AFFC)

Egg's regard to an honor guard seems more a joke than a praise. Excluding Bloodraven, these were all dangerous criminals, one can assume, hardly a worthy escort. We don't really know if Bloodraven went willingly or forced, but assuming that he was exiled there, Egg would hardly give away one of the Targaryen treasures to rot at the Wall.

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This many not be a small question, but I cannot find a thread dealing with it so I will start here. I am doing a reread/listen of ASoS and just finished a Davos chapter after they find out Robb is dead. Milisandre states that there are more false kings...



"They will not." Melisandre's voice was soft. " I am sorry, Your Grace. This is not an end. More false kings will soon rise to take up the crowns of those who've died."



"More?" Stannis looked as though he would gladly have throttled her. "More usurpers? more traitors?"



"I have seen it in the flames."



Who are these "false kings" she sees? She is notoriously bad at interpreting what she sees in the fires, so I wonder if the people she sees are really those with a potentially legitimate claim. Perhaps Jon or Aegon?


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Are topics in this forum closed if there are over 20 pages?

I think the limit is supposed to be 400 posts, but yeah.

You can then open up another one if you want the discussion to carry on. That's what's up with Heresy 40, RLJ 37, etc.

ETA: ninja'd.

As per the new King in the North, Rickon would be who I'd put my money on.

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This many not be a small question, but I cannot find a thread dealing with it so I will start here. I am doing a reread/listen of ASoS and just finished a Davos chapter after they find out Robb is dead. Milisandre states that there are more false kings...

"They will not." Melisandre's voice was soft. " I am sorry, Your Grace. This is not an end. More false kings will soon rise to take up the crowns of those who've died."

"More?" Stannis looked as though he would gladly have throttled her. "More usurpers? more traitors?"

"I have seen it in the flames."

Who are these "false kings" she sees? She is notoriously bad at interpreting what she sees in the fires, so I wonder if the people she sees are really those with a potentially legitimate claim. Perhaps Jon or Aegon?

You seem to have forgotten to.ask a question :p But I'll pick up the trailing thread of your thought. Melisandre as we know, is a terrible fraud. However, she does sometimes have actual visions in her fire, so its possible she could have seen Euron and (f)Aegon taking the place of Balon and Robb, and Tommen taking the place of Joffers. Of course, she could have "seen" new false kings by simple guesswork; Balon had brothers known to be fiercely Ironborn, Joffery had a brother who was bound to.claim the throne. That satisfies "false kings". And whats more, in times of.unrest and rebellion, every Lord and his cousin has the potential to rise up as a "King" especially if they see theor monarch as weak
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The pomp he refers to is related to the ship, and the personal guard of Ser Duncan the Tall, not the prisoners.

"He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

- (Samwell II, AFFC)

Egg's regard to an honor guard seems more a joke than a praise. Excluding Bloodraven, these were all dangerous criminals, one can assume, hardly a worthy escort. We don't really know if Bloodraven went willingly or forced, but assuming that he was exiled there, Egg would hardly give away one of the Targaryen treasures to rot at the Wall.

Not the Egg we know, anyway. However, the Egg we know wouldn't risk destroying the last Targaryen dragon eggs either, yet he does..... :)

This many not be a small question, but I cannot find a thread dealing with it so I will start here. I am doing a reread/listen of ASoS and just finished a Davos chapter after they find out Robb is dead. Milisandre states that there are more false kings...

"They will not." Melisandre's voice was soft. " I am sorry, Your Grace. This is not an end. More false kings will soon rise to take up the crowns of those who've died."

"More?" Stannis looked as though he would gladly have throttled her. "More usurpers? more traitors?"

"I have seen it in the flames."

Who are these "false kings" she sees? She is notoriously bad at interpreting what she sees in the fires, so I wonder if the people she sees are really those with a potentially legitimate claim. Perhaps Jon or Aegon?

Well, there's at least Tommen, Euron and fAegon.

These, or it could be that the vision she sees isn't about actual kings, but just people sitting on the Iron Throne(Cers, Kevan, Tywin, etc etc) Her visions are not very clear at times.

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That does get me wondering...if Tommen replaces Joff, and Euron replaces Balon, then who is the false king rising up to take Robb's crown?

“Truth be told,” she [Lady Dustin] said, “Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North?"

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"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.

"You are a young man, Tyrion," Mormont said. "How many winters have you seen?"

He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember."

"And all of them short." ... "When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that." ... The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face." Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. "You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams." ... "Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready."

Does Jeor know about TPTWP? Did he learn it from Aemon?

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The pomp he refers to is related to the ship, and the personal guard of Ser Duncan the Tall, not the prisoners.

"He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

- (Samwell II, AFFC)

Egg's regard to an honor guard seems more a joke than a praise. Excluding Bloodraven, these were all dangerous criminals, one can assume, hardly a worthy escort. [1] We don't really know if Bloodraven went willingly or forced, but assuming that he was exiled there, Egg would hardly give away one of the Targaryen treasures to rot at the Wall. [2]

1. Nevertheless, Aemon sees fit to refer to them in such a manner. He clearly singles out Bloodraven (one of the prisoners) as man of significant stature in the context of speaking about the pomp and circumstance of his arrival to the Wall, "no less a man than Brynden Rivers." Even if the use of the phrase "honor guard" was a tongue-in-cheek reference it was still part of the pomp of his arrival. Aemon was sent to the Wall escorted by Egg's "friend" Dunk (who isn't said to be Lord Commander or even a member of the Kingsgaurd at the time) and "no less a man than" Bloodraven (clearly an imposing figure still remembered despite the passage of time and his fall from grace), plus whoever else happened to be in the dungeons at the time (a time, it's worth noting, of significant unrest seeing as Maekar had just been killed by a rebellious lord in what, may, or may not, have been another Blackfyre rebellion). And we don't know who was in the dungeon at the time, they may not have been dangerous criminals (e.g. Rorge and Bitter) so much as political adversaries (e.g. Ned and Tyrion). If it's the latter than they may indeed have added prestige to Aemon's honor guard. Aemon is making a very grand comparison, one that sounds more fitting IMO if Bloodraven were to be wielding DS, and if other high born prisoners were also part of the honor guard.

2. We don't know the context of Bloodraven's imprisonment for that matter. He could have willingly gone to the Black Cells and willingly accepted exile at the Wall. All we do know is that Bloodraven is the last person known to wield Dark Sister, and it's never said to have been in Maekar's possession, nor Egg's, nor any of his son's, nor any of his knights of the kingsguard.

All of that said until more is revealed RT is correct we sadly don't know the whereabouts of Dark Sister.

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Why do they keep refering Rhaenyra's kids as bastards I thought she married both the fathers of her kids?

To elaborate a tad on LM's answer:

It seems Rhaenyra and Daemon have a bit of a bad rep when it comes to relationships, altough whether this is pure black propaganda or is actually based on facts we don't know (at least in Rhaenyra's case)

Additionally, Laenor Velaryon - who is supposed to be Rhaenyra's first three kids' father, might very well have been homosexual (or even a paedophile) as hinted at by Criston Cole's "even the boys would not be safe - we all know what Laenor was" (i don't have the exact quote on my right now, sorry).

Again, no proof whatsoever, altough we do know Cole tends to be a bit of a butthurt jerk. Some think Lord Velaryon's hasty decision to legitimize Adam and Alyn might have to do with clearing Laenor's name (if, say, there were his bastards) - only speculation at this point.

So, all in all, there is no proof that they're indeed Strong bastards. If you ask me, it's a lot like the Daeron the Good propaganda: the Blackfyre supporters had no way in hell of *knowing* he was Aemon the Dragonknight's bastard, but it seemed likely as Aemon's love for his sister/queen was widely known.

Rhaenyra was probably close to the Strong knight accused of fathering her children, she might very well have had an affair with him, but I doubt the Blacks have ANY proof.

To add even more :) :

The correct quote about Laenor is this one:

"Seven save this realm if we seat a bastard on the Iron Throne.” He spoke of Rhaenyra’s wanton ways and the infamy of her husband. “They will turn the Red Keep into a brothel. No man’s daughter will be safe, nor any man’s wife. Even the boys… we know what Laenor was.”

Take a closer look, I came to a different conclusion regarding Laenor. At first, Criston refers to Rhaenyra and Daemon and their ways with their supposed lovers. I do believe that "even the boys" refers to Laenor's three sons with Rhaenyra (Jace, Luce and Joff). In that case, the Greens have two arguments: either Jace, Luce and Joff are bastards of Rhaenyra, and no trueborn children, and thus not fit for the throne, OR they actually are Laenor's, and Laenor had an equal reputation to Rhaenyra and Daemon, making it most likely that his three sons would be just as dangerous towards women and girls, just as Rhaenyra and Daemon are.

In addition to Laenor's sexuality:

There is a big chance that Addam and Alyn were actually Laenor's bastards, and not Corlys'. One thing pointing into this direction is that Addam claims a dragon. The people in Westeros obviously believe that only Targaryens or people with Targaryen blood can ride dragons, yet Corlys has no known Targaryen ancestor. Laenor, however, does have Targaryen blood, and very recently, through his mother, Rhaenys Targaryen.

Another thing pointing into that direction (or at least explaining why Corlys could want to believe it so desperately), is that Addam controls the same dragon as Laenor did.

In addition, Addam and Alyn being Laenor's sons would make Alyn (in some way) a cousin to Elaena Targaryen (and it is fact that they were cousins). It has also been hinted that Aegon III does not marry a Velaryon bride anymore, so Alyn would need to have some way of being related to Elaena. Being Corlys' bastard would not make Alyn family of Elaena, and any daughter Alyn could have had, would not yet have reached a child-bearing age before the time of conception of Aegon's first son. But Alyn being the bastard (or believed to be the bastard) of Laenor, would make him family of Elaena, and her cousin (in the same stretched way that Bloodraven is a cousin of Egg).

Meakar's reign was about a 11-13 years (220/222ac - 233ac) so Bloodraven spent more like a dozen years in the Black Cells (the two sources for this are Mormont's conversation w/ Jon about Aemon Targaryen in AGoT ACoK, and Aemon's recollection of coming north when he and sam are traveling to Bravos by ship in AFoC). Aemon speaks of his honor guard providing the greatest pomp of any new recruit since the Dornish Kings were sent in golden fetters. It was specifically Bloodraven's presence that Aemon singles out, from this (and egg's seemingly good relationship w/ BR) I think it's possible that BR went to the wall w/ Dark Sister in hand. A former Hand of the King wielding a Valyrian Steel blade like Dark Sister would probably count as the greatest pomp since Nymeria Martell sent the dornish kings in golden fetters.

Maekar's reign lasted from 221 AC until 233 AC (so 12 years). That means that Bloodraven indeed spend 12 years in the Black Cells, since he was only released after Egg gained the throne (Aemon was born in 198 AC and he was 35 when he came to the Wall with Bloodraven, which indeed confirms that Bloodraven was released the same year that Egg was crowned, in 233 AC).

It's possible that Aemon would have mentioned Dark Sister, would have Brynden had been allowed to keep her. But perhaps he wouldn't have. Logically, Maekar would have taken the sword from Bloodraven upon Bloodravens arrest, but it might be that Egg restored it to him. We just don't know unfortunately. :(

"Fool," the raven agreed. Tyrion glanced up. The bird peered down at him with those beady black eyes, ruffling its wings. "Fool," it called again. Doubtless old Mormont would take it amiss if he throttled the creature. A pity. --Tyrion III, Game

Any idea what was going on there?

Could be foreshadowing of him becoming essentially a court jester in Essos.

ETA: Which, incidentally, occurred involving him throttling a certain someone.

This could indeed be it. Tyrion did become a jester in the pit in Meereen, however shortly.

The pomp he refers to is related to the ship, and the personal guard of Ser Duncan the Tall, not the prisoners.

"He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

- (Samwell II, AFFC)

Egg's regard to an honor guard seems more a joke than a praise. Excluding Bloodraven, these were all dangerous criminals, one can assume, hardly a worthy escort. We don't really know if Bloodraven went willingly or forced, but assuming that he was exiled there, Egg would hardly give away one of the Targaryen treasures to rot at the Wall.

Egg couldn't restore Bloodraven to his former status, even if he had wanted to. Bloodraven had been despised by many, but putting a man who had spend 12 years in the darkest cells in a leading position, from where he could influence the realm yet again, that would create an uprising, and since Maekar died in battle, Egg's reign most likely started off a bit troubled. Bloodraven being allowed to go to the Wall was the kindest fate he could have received most likely.

Like I said, Maekar most likely took the sword from Bloodraven when Bloodraven was imprisoned. It would be strange for Egg to return it to a man who is going to spend the rest of his life on the Wall. But we'll hopefully know when the World Book comes out :)

This many not be a small question, but I cannot find a thread dealing with it so I will start here. I am doing a reread/listen of ASoS and just finished a Davos chapter after they find out Robb is dead. Milisandre states that there are more false kings...

"They will not." Melisandre's voice was soft. " I am sorry, Your Grace. This is not an end. More false kings will soon rise to take up the crowns of those who've died."

"More?" Stannis looked as though he would gladly have throttled her. "More usurpers? more traitors?"

"I have seen it in the flames."

Who are these "false kings" she sees? She is notoriously bad at interpreting what she sees in the fires, so I wonder if the people she sees are really those with a potentially legitimate claim. Perhaps Jon or Aegon?

Well, there's at least Tommen, Euron and fAegon. The first two should most definitely be counted as false.

Wouldn't she have at least recognized Jon if she'd seen him as King? I expect she'd freak out a bit.

I don't think she's seen Jon as a fake King. I think she saw several people claiming being the King (like Tommen, Euron and Aegon), but not necessarily saw them on the throne.

Are topics in this forum closed if there are over 20 pages?

When a thread crosses the 400 posts, it should be reported (though I don't know where) so it can be locked. After that, you are allowed to open a next version of the thread, where the discussion can continue.

Though I'd say it would be a major improvement if you, upon making a new version (say, Small Questions version 10024 that will arrive in the nearby future :) ) you can choose to send a message to all those who participated in the previous version (so Small Questions version 10023 in this example) so they'll actually be able to find the next version of the thread. Most threads get the same name, with a version # behind it, but at times, people choose different names (like the "I never noticed that before" threads) for the next versions, which makes it harder to find them, should you use the search option.

Just a thought :)

You seem to have forgotten to.ask a question :P But I'll pick up the trailing thread of your thought. Melisandre as we know, is a terrible fraud. However, she does sometimes have actual visions in her fire, so its possible she could have seen Euron and (f)Aegon taking the place of Balon and Robb, and Tommen taking the place of Joffers. Of course, she could have "seen" new false kings by simple guesswork; Balon had brothers known to be fiercely Ironborn, Joffery had a brother who was bound to.claim the throne. That satisfies "false kings". And whats more, in times of.unrest and rebellion, every Lord and his cousin has the potential to rise up as a "King" especially if they see theor monarch as weak

True, Melissandre sees things in her fires, but seems to misinterpretend it often.

But I also like the guessing part. She could have made the "prediction" by using simple logic.

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.

"You are a young man, Tyrion," Mormont said. "How many winters have you seen?"

He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember."

"And all of them short." ... "When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that." ... The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face." Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. "You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."

Does Jeor know about TPTWP? Did he learn it from Aemon?

I think this might be pointing more towards the Long Night come again, and thus the return of the Others, than to tPtwP.

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All of that said until more is revealed RT is correct we sadly don't know the whereabouts of Dark Sister.

Yes. I hope it will be in the World Book. Perhaps not the way how it ended up in people´s hands, but at least if Bloodraven was allowed to take it, or who got it next.

If it´s not in there, I guess it will be either in WoW or aDoS... :)

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Does Ygritte call Jon Snows testicles "stones" in the books?



If yes that could be linked to the line "waking the dragons from stone".... Jon has 2 dragon eggs and only need to cook them for them to hatch.


Of course that would leave him infertile but that exactly what happend to Danny when she hached her eggs.




Maybe in WOW they will think him for dead and burn his body only to witness 2 ice dragons named Eddard and Rhaegar hatching from his testicles.

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Does Ygritte call Jon Snows testicles "stones" in the books?

If yes that could be linked to the line "waking the dragons from stone".... Jon has 2 dragon eggs and only need to cook them for them to hatch.

Of course that would leave him infertile but that exactly what happend to Danny when she hached her eggs.

Maybe in WOW they will think him for dead and burn his body only to witness 2 ice dragons named Eddard and Rhaegar hatching from his testicles.

No.

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Thanks for the responses. Sorry Brandon Weirtree...I buried my question down in the post so it is not immediately obvious. I need to work on my post writing!



I guess her "false kings" comment struck me this time around because I now see the leech burning as more of a dog and pony show. I think she saw that these kings were going to die and tried to play it that burning the leeches with the king's blood made it happen when really it would have happened regardless. I thought maybe the false king bit plays into that. It does not take much imagination to think that others will step in to fill the breech of fallen kings whether she sees it in the fires or not. I just wonder if she is riffing, saw something vague, or if she saw something concrete.



Thanks again, hope this brain fart makes sense!

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I think this might be pointing more towards the Long Night come again, and thus the return of the Others, than to tPtwP.

Absolutely, but one of the reasons Jeor is anticipating another Long Night is the ending of a long summer, which is part of TPTWP prophecy, no?
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