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Small Questions v 10023


Stubby

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Reading Davos I from Dance with Dragons. There was a weird moment, and I thought they would come back to it and explain. Davos catches a glimpse of one of Lord Godric Borell's daughters or granddaughters and notices something on her hand. Lord Godric catches Davos staring at the hand and says something like, "She has the mark, as all Borells do for many generations."

What was this mark? What was the point of GRRM throwing that in there? What's it connected to?

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbaslypgyWk

There is a question in that interview about the mark of Borrell, I dont quite know what point...maybe the 8 minute mark or somewhere thereabouts

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Is Edmure's age given somewhere?

The only thing I can think of is Lysa being 2 years younger than Cat, but that's all that is given on Lysa's age as well.

I'm just gonna go through the books and make note of every time someones age (or how long ago certain major events happened) is mentioned. It'll take me a week or so. I've only just started and already encountered something curious.

“Ser Ilyn has not been feeling talkative these past fourteen years,” Lord Renly commented with a sly smile.

Ned married Catleyn fifteen years ago, the Sack of Kings Landing was fourteen years ago. Tywin's resignation as hand was shortly after Jamie's appointment to the Kingsguard about seventeen years ago. So Renly is off by a few years. I can't imagine Tywin's captain of the guard hanging around Kings Landing boasting how Tywin really ruled the realm after he had resigned.

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Ned married Catleyn fifteen years ago, the Sack of Kings Landing was fourteen years ago. Tywin's resignation as hand was shortly after Jamie's appointment to the Kingsguard about seventeen years ago. So Renly is off by a few years. I can't imagine Tywin's captain of the guard hanging around Kings Landing boasting how Tywin really ruled the realm after he had resigned.

Fourteen years ago was when Renly met Ser Ilyn and when Ilyn was appointed as the King's Justice. Maybe a round-about way of showing Renly's self-centered personality.

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Regarding Cat's age:





When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen.






How young they all had been-she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager.




We know Sansa is two years older than Arya, so that puts Cat 2-3 years older than Petyr, which makes her around 17-18 by the time of the duel.



We also know Ned was 18 at the tourney of Harrenhal, which is shortly after the duel:





It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal.






So Cat is roughly the same age as Ned, or slightly younger.


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Fourteen years ago was when Renly met Ser Ilyn and when Ilyn was appointed as the King's Justice. Maybe a round-about way of showing Renly's self-centered personality.

I do believe this is the case. The earliest Renly would have met ser Ilyn was 14 years prior, when Robert became king.

Cersei mentions to Jaime Ilyn lost his tongue when Jaime visits her after he has just been knighted, which is in 281 AC. So Ilyn lost his tongue before Jamie's visit.

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Regarding Cat's age:

We know Sansa is two years older than Arya, so that puts Cat 2-3 years older than Petyr, which makes her around 17-18 by the time of the duel.

We also know Ned was 18 at the tourney of Harrenhal, which is shortly after the duel:

So Cat is roughly the same age as Ned, or slightly younger.

Is the duel shortly before Harrenhal though? Brandon told Catelyn they would wed upon his return after he has fought the duel. But Harrenhal happened in 281 and Brandon died in 282 a few days before the wedding.

That would be a year in between... Which, now I think about it, is possible...

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Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun.

Since Brandon was still twenty when he died, it couldn't have been too long after the duel. The wiki timeline actually puts both Harrenhal and Brandon's death in 281.

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Since Brandon was still twenty when he died, it couldn't have been too long after the duel. The wiki timeline actually puts both Harrenhal and Brandon's death in 281.

The rebellion began in 282. Since Brandons death happened within a month before Jon Arryn called the banners (it was only a raven that needed to fly from KL to the Eyrie), Brandon died in 282.

The wiki timeline is wrong on many things unfortunately.

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Is the duel shortly before Harrenhal though? Brandon told Catelyn they would wed upon his return after he has fought the duel. But Harrenhal happened in 281 and Brandon died in 282 a few days before the wedding.

That would be a year in between... Which, now I think about it, is possible...

He might have even been killed had Cat not begged Brandon beforehand to spare Petyr's life. Still, Petyr is sent away from Riverrun while Brandon departs to join his father's wedding party, coming down from the north. But when Brandon hears of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna on his way back, he abandons Cat, racing to KL. There he is arrested for calling on Rhaegar to face him in single combat.

Something else that caught my eye in that article is this:

In return for Tully aid, Eddard agrees to marry Cat in his brother's stead, while Lord Jon promises to wed Cat's younger sister Lysa.
I always assumed that Ned's honor was his reason for marrying Cat.
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Even so, it doesn't really matter if it was 281 or 282. We know Brandon was 20 both at the duel and when he died and Ned was 18 at Harrenhal, which was either in between, or some time before the duel (I'm not sure about that). That still puts Cat about the same age as Ned or a bit younger, like I said. Nothing is exact here, but at least we have a general idea about her age.


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Something else that caught my eye in that article is this:

I always assumed that Ned's honor was his reason for marrying Cat.

Yeah, and there's this from the first book:

Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed...

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Even so, it doesn't really matter if it was 281 or 282. We know Brandon was 20 both at the duel and when he died and Ned was 18 at Harrenhal, which was either in between, or some time before the duel (I'm not sure about that). That still puts Cat about the same age as Ned or a bit younger, like I said. Nothing is exact here, but at least we have a general idea about her age.

The duel probably happened in 281 after the Tournament, however you're probably correct that Cat is slightly younger the Ned (I bet the wiki editors used the same passages and line of reasoning to place her birthdate at 264).

on a related side note:

Cat I AGoT: 298 – 15 = 283 (rebellion had already begun)

And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully.

Cat IV AGoT

Catelyn was past delicacy. "He was my father's ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were . . . more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." She lifted her face to the spray, as if the brisk wind could blow the memories away. "He wrote to me at Riverrun after Brandon was killed, but I burned the letter unread. By then I knew that Ned would marry me in his brother's place."

later in the same chapter:

"I've angered you, my lady. That was never my intent." He looked contrite. The look brought back vivid memories for Catelyn. He had been a sly child, but after his mischiefs he always looked contrite; it was a gift he had. The years had not changed him much. Petyr had been a small boy, and he had grown into a small man, an inch or two shorter than Catelyn, slender and quick, with the sharp features she remembered and the same laughing grey-green eyes. He had a little pointed chin beard now, and threads of silver in his dark hair, though he was still shy of thirty. They went well with the silver mockingbird that fastened his cloak. Even as a child, he had always loved his silver.

If Littlefinger was scarcely 15 years old when he dueled Brandon i don't see how he could be under 30 years old 298. 298 - 29 = 269. 269 + 15 = 284. Even if we assume LF hasn't celebrated his nameday for 298 and was born in 268 and we add 15 years we still get 283 as the date of the duel, at least according to Cat's PoVs. I think, like Sansa, Cat might be math challenged. She would presumably know Littlefinger's age when they grew up together and being present for his birthdays so i don't think she would be wrong about his age at the time of the duel. For LF to be shy of 30 in 298, the dual would have had to have taken place in 283 which I don't think is possible given what we know about the overall timeline of events.

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The duel probably happened in 281 after the Tournament, however you're probably correct that Cat is slightly younger the Ned (I bet the wiki editors used the same passages and line of reasoning to place her birthdate at 264).

on a related side note:

Cat I AGoT: 298 15 = 283 (rebellion had already begun)

Cat IV AGoT

later in the same chapter:

If Littlefinger was scarcely 15 years old when he dueled Brandon i don't see how he could be under 30 years old 298. 298 - 29 = 269. 269 + 15 = 284. Even if we assume LF hasn't celebrated his nameday for 298 and was born in 268 and we add 15 years we still get 283 as the date of the duel, at least according to Cat's PoVs. I think, like Sansa, Cat might be math challenged. She would presumably know Littlefinger's age when they grew up together and being present for his birthdays so i don't think she would be wrong about his age at the time of the duel. For LF to be shy of 30 in 298, the dual would have had to have taken place in 283 which I don't think is possible given what we know about the overall timeline of events.

I'd say the duel most likely took place at the end of 281, with Brandon dying in middle 282

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