Frey Pie Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Balons chances of taking land are equal in both the West and the North-he has the men and the element of surprise as well as complete dominance at sea. His chances of keeping this land vary on the outcome of the war: 1) If Robb wins he has a chance of keeping some lands in the Wesr, but any land taken in the North will be taken back2) If Tywin, Stannis or Renly wins he will not be allowed to keep land in either the West or the North Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Nope, just common sense. Yeah. Okay then. So those were Robbs words. Knowing what's there and writing it... or even suggesting it are two different things. All things point to those being Robbs words. Not Theon's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Yeah. Okay then. So those were Robbs words. Knowing what's there and writing it... or even suggesting it are two different things. All things point to those being Robbs words. Not Theon's. See you have absolutely nothing to suggest that Robb is the sole author. You ask for quotes but supply none yourself. I offer a reasonable statement and all you can say is no it was Robb. Robb isn't a full blown idiot. He used Theon to try and swing this alliance. He used Theons information, relations and knowledge in coming up with this offer. Theon has shown that he has forgotten more than he thought about life on the island. The overall responsibility for the letter is on Robb, but it makes great sense for Theon to have had a hand in the writing Just saying no holds no water, as you have as little evidence as I do, and no better reasoning to believe to the contrary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toffeejay Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Not a fan of Balon, he was a bitter old fool. But I'm going to defend his (utterly stupid) reasons for attacking the north. We see how mad Theon's mother goes after the death of her sons and the taking of Theon.I'm going to suggest maybe he doesn't hate Theon for being rasied as a Northman, he hates himself for letting it happen? He's shamed by it and the misguided anger to the Starks over the likes of Stannis or Mallister was in seeing who took his son. Ned played only a small part in his downfall but was the one who stuck the knife in when he took Theon.He should be grateful it was Ned and not someone like Tywin (who would have had more cause) or Stannis. But to me it just seems like seeing his son return brings back all the memories of his own failure. As for the timing of his decison I don't think its clear. The ships were beached and Asha and Dagmer already away raising the bannermen so he cleary aimed to take advantage of the warring factions. But at the end (just be fore the "I liked you better when you were Esgred") he is discussing tactics with Victarion and states he has made his plans. I'd suggest Theon's return may have determined his target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 See you have absolutely nothing to suggest that Robb is the sole author. You ask for quotes but supply none yourself. I offer a reasonable statement and all you can say is no it was Robb. Robb isn't a full blown idiot. He used Theon to try and swing this alliance. He used Theons information, relations and knowledge in coming up with this offer. Theon has shown that he has forgotten more than he thought about life on the island. The overall responsibility for the letter is on Robb, but it makes great sense for Theon to have had a hand in the writing Just saying no holds no water, as you have as little evidence as I do, and no better reasoning to believe to the contrary I will not grudge him that. If I'm King in the North, let him be King of the Iron Islands, if that's his desire. I'll give him a crown gladly, so long as he helps us bring down the Lannisters. This is what he says to Catelyn when Theon is nowhere near him. If we were talking about the show where Theon tries to get Balon to swear fealty to Robb, then you'd have an arguement. But we're not. There is not one point where he talks about or thinks about Robb giving Balon a crown. He talks about taking Casterly Rock and IIRC taking the crown. I'll have to read up on it though. Robb's 'not a total idiot' and yet you think Theon is. Moreover... by all accounts he saw himself as Robb's equal. Theon telling him to write that that he'll give Balon a crown suggest inferiority. It was a mistake. Accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I will not grudge him that. If I'm King in the North, let him be King of the Iron Islands, if that's his desire. I'll give him a crown gladly, so long as he helps us bring down the Lannisters. This is what he says to Catelyn when Theon is nowhere near him. If we were talking about the show where Theon tries to get Balon to swear fealty to Robb, then you'd have an arguement. But we're not. There is not one point where he talks about or thinks about Robb giving Balon a crown. He talks about taking Casterly Rock and IIRC taking the crown. I'll have to read up on it though. Robb's 'not a total idiot' and yet you think Theon is. Moreover... by all accounts he saw himself as Robb's equal. Theon telling him to write that that he'll give Balon a crown suggest inferiority. It was a mistake. Accept it. I accept that it is a mistake but of both Robb and Theon in my opinion. I never said Theon is an idiot-his taking of WF was brilliant. Robb did write the letter so your quote just reinforces that yes, that is indeed what is in the letter. Either way we don't know. You assume Theon doesn't know what the letter says and had no hand in the wording, I assume differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Herman Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 "The old way served the isles well when we were one small kingdom amongst many, but Aegon's Conquest put an end to that. Balon Refused to see what was plain before him. The old way died with Black Harren and his son's."-Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHOSTSTARK Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 agreed just seemed like an idiot. for the first time thinking he could revolt and he lost badly then when Theon came back he hated to see him because it reminded him of his terrible loss. then like u said waits until robert and eddard are dead to make another move. dudes a bum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HannibalStark Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Yeah, he was a bitter old bastard, almost indistinguishable from Lord Walder Frey in personality, but with fewer good points to compensate. Imagine that; someone worse than Lord Frey. agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Do you have a quote because other wise I'm just going to have to assume it was Robb's mistake given that he was saying the same thing when Theon was far away? Lord Balon- "Yet the Stark pup sends you to me like a well trained raven, clutching his little message" Theon-"There is nothing small about the letter I bear and the offer he makes is one that I suggested to him" Later Balon goes onto say how Robb will give him a crown. Theon doesn't say anything about wording but lays out the plan he has come up with along with Robb. Only when Balon repeats the give him a crown part does Theon say it was bad wording. Note he does not say bad wording on Robbs part either. He was quite involved with the contents of the letter, as well as the idea behind it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Totally right OP. Balon could have accepted Robb's offer and agreed the North was off limits and gotten an agreement that brought back Theon, his crown, and kept the Starks from interfering in IB business as long as they stayed out of Robb's. He missed a golden opportunity to get almost EVERYTHING he's ever wanted. He's the biggest fool of the story, he could have practically set his own terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskandros Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think the IB are annoying and uninteresting. Balon seemed like a real fool to me. If he had allied with Robb, they could have attacked Tywin on 2 sides. Everyone would be winning. Except the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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