What did Ned really want for Jon's future?

[Khal Shaggydog]

While i agree that this thread got a bit sidetracked into some unproductinve Cat hating (not wholly unwarrented as it does play into Ned's "plan" for Jon's upbringing), Florina Bolton's next point about knighting? Thats rather silly. Beyond Bran the Dreamer and Rodrick Cassell and Jorah the Andal, who is really going in for knighting as a future plan in the North? Its not a Northern thing. And then to suggest he send Jon to Greywater Watch to squire for someone? Thats even funnier - they are by far the least knightly house in a region that does really do the whole knighting thing.

I do think Greywater Watch is a decent idea - but the suggestion of knighting is just not reasonable. Unless we're talking squiring for the KOLT...but that could get complicated for obvious/unobvious reasons.

[Djinn]

Is there a reason why the Manderly's aren't considered for squiring Jon or Bran? Or the Tullys? And it's not like there's lack of available land in the North to grant to the younger Stark children, Seadragon Point is almost deserted, no noticeable Holdfasts in Stony Shore, and why not a Knight of Moat Caillin?

Also, Arya and Sansa matches are long in the making, i mean, available heirs/lords within their age range and without unsavory habits aren't a dime a dozen.

[Khal Shaggydog]

I think the Manderlys would be a good place to squire the Stark kids, they seem to be fairly honorable and respected despite their lack of self-control at the dinner table.

The Tully's also would have made sense - especially with Edmure being of a perfect age to be watching over them. The Vale would also be acceptable - even without Jon Arryn physically there for those years, the Blackfish was, and the rest of the Lords of the Vale would have felt an affinity to the Starks because of Eddard.

This also indirecly raises the question of Benjen joining the NW, and Eddards seeming lack of any significant planning for the future of his House. I think they were just so secure in the peace of Robert's reign that he thought they were all set with three sons, a bastard and two daughters.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Sitting at a lower table isn't bad of itself, but if you usually sit at the high table it's certainly different. Jon was feeling rejection, it was an emotional response he couldn't help but feeling and not one he wallowed in because he tried to tell himself he was better off than Robb because he was allowed to drink. When he got to the Wall, then he was an entitled jerk but he changed his behaviour when it was pointed out to him.

I do agree with you on that. It must have been different, at least, for Jon to have to seat separated from his family. But my point isn't really that Jon's wrong to feel rejection, as it's the normal reaction to that situation (Though he understands that it's a formal event and It would be offensive to the Royal Family to have a bastard among them), but that his life was miserable, he had close to none options and that he was condemned to be unhappy. When you think about it, the whole point of Jon being entitled in the Wall, in my opinion, was to show that Jon had no clue to what is the true situation of normal, ordinary people, that surpasses the whole "bastard" stigma. He had the bastard stigma, but he still led a very comfortable life in Winterfell, the best education money could buy in his society, and that's reflected in his initial treatment of others in the NW.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I do agree with you on that. It must have been different, at least, for Jon to have to seat separated from his family. But my point isn't really that Jon's wrong to feel rejection, as it's the normal reaction to that situation (Though he understands that it's a formal event and It would be offensive to the Royal Family to have a bastard among them), but that his life was miserable, he had close to none options and that he was condemned to be unhappy. When you think about it, the whole point of Jon being entitled in the Wall, in my opinion, was to show that Jon had no clue to what is the true situation of normal, ordinary people, that surpasses the whole "bastard" stigma. He had the bastard stigma, but he still led a very comfortable life in Winterfell, the best education money could buy in his society, and that's reflected in his initial treatment of others in the NW.

Jon can only react to his surroundings and upbringing. All this stuff everyone keeps saying about how Jon is raised and treated better than other bastards around Westeros, well how could Jon know any of that? how could he know how all Roberts bastards are faring all over the riverlands? he has no idea about any of that, all he can do is react to his surroundings and how he was raised. So for him to be upset about being kicked out of the head table, that is justified, I would have been equally upset about it. Ned should realize what he was doing. I do not know the answer to everything, but I do believe there was a better way to deal with Jon and his parentage and his upbringing than Ned did. and he absolutely should not have left for KL, which at the least would be a trip of several months, without having a big long talk with Jon about everything.

[MegaAIP]

Ned has this huge task to keep the secret of who jon really is a secret and does so out of honor. He never asked for this task though. So when Jon states he wants to join the watch it's Ned's out. Sure he will have a tough life at the wall but he will be out of sight and just another forgotten brother there.

[Ghost's Shadow]

And did Ned ever ask Jon why he wanted to go?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

And did Ned ever ask Jon why he wanted to go?

No, int he book they barely discussed it, seemed very hasty to me.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Yeah, and after everything, that's kind of sad.

[Fae Boleyn]

Can someone point out which bastards in Westeros get a better treatment/upbringing that Jon?

Better, probably not, though like Jon Gerion Lannister's bastard daughter Joy Hill grew up in the family home - Tywin mentions her to Tyrion in an offhand way like she's familiar, Jaime knows her well enough to think she deserves better than Sybell Spicer's son and to notice she's lonely.

The difference with Joy is her father was an unmarried youngest brother of the Lord, not the Lord himself. I believe that's what makes Jon so unusual - Ronnet Connington's bastard son also lives in the family home, but Ned is the only one who seems to have brought a bastard home when he was already married.

The Sand Snakes and possibly Daemon Sand may have grown up better than Jon, depending on your perspective, but we know Dornish

[Fae Boleyn]

Can someone point out which bastards in Westeros get a better treatment/upbringing that Jon?

Better, probably not, though like Jon Gerion Lannister's bastard daughter Joy Hill grew up in the family home - Tywin mentions her to Tyrion in an offhand way like she's familiar, Jaime knows her well enough to think she deserves better than Sybell Spicer's son and to notice she's lonely. She's a "bride of the Rock", implying that she grew up there. Then again, between Cersei and Kevan's toddler daughter Janei Joy was the only girl born - even a bastard might be of use for marriage alliances.

The difference with Joy is her father was an unmarried youngest brother of the Lord, not the Lord himself. I believe that's what makes Jon so unusual - Ronnet Connington's bastard son also lives in the family home, but Ned is the only one who seems to have brought a bastard home when he was already married.

The Sand Snakes and possibly Daemon Sand may have grown up better than Jon, depending on your perspective, but we know Dornish attitudes tend to be more chill.

[Fae Boleyn]

Damn it, sorry about the double post, mobile is annoying.

[Carter209]

Is there a reason why the Manderly's aren't considered for squiring Jon or Bran? Or the Tullys? And it's not like there's lack of available land in the North to grant to the younger Stark children, Seadragon Point is almost deserted, no noticeable Holdfasts in Stony Shore, and why not a Knight of Moat Caillin?

Also, Arya and Sansa matches are long in the making, i mean, available heirs/lords within their age range and without unsavory habits aren't a dime a dozen.

To piggyback off this, it's not outlandish to think that Jon could wind up marrying Wynafryd Manderly and taking the Manderly name. Jon would be a Lord of a High Lordship in the North, and the marriage would firm up ties between the Starks and one of, if not the, most powerful bannerman they have. Plus, if you're looking to have Jon marry a northern girl while also giving him reason to stay in the potential inner circle of future Lord Robb, White Harbor would be the first choice.

It's difficult, though, to try and figure out what Ned would have wanted for Jon. He has no plans for his legitimate children which has been pointed out in this thread already, and Jon would come after them. Frankly, I think the text supports Ned raising Robb and Jon to be brothers, since if the Crown did find out about Jon he'd need his "siblings" to help protect him, not the least of which is Robb. He could, as I already mentioned, take the name of northern girl and join her family, like the Manderlys. He could also, as thought of in the quote, become the Knight of Moat Cailin and marry Meera Reed, further cementing the crannogmen's dominance on the North's southern border. He could even marry someone like Jeyne Poole and be given Lordship over the Gift, as Ned and Benjen had discussed doing before the shit hit the fan.