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Cersei's Lies


Mithras

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GRRM is a different kind of writer. He wants the readers to solve the puzzles he created. He sometimes uses unreliable narrators. His characters can be ignorant, cheating or lying. GRRM does not explain everything plainly in words. He implies some of them heavily or mildly. So in order to get to the truth, we must be careful. That is far more important when dealing with great conspirators or known liars. We can understand GRRM’s style better with this quote:



Jaime handed him the ring of keys. “I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?”


The question was another knife, twisting in his guts. “Are you sure you want to know?” asked Tyrion. “Joffrey would have been a worse king than Aerys ever was. He stole his father’s dagger and gave it to a footpad to slit the throat of Brandon Stark, did you know that?”


“I . . . I thought he might have.”


“Well, a son takes after his father. Joff would have killed me as well, once he came into his power. For the crime of being short and ugly, of which I am so conspicuously guilty.”


“You have not answered my question.”


“You poor stupid blind crippled fool. Must I spell every little thing out for you? Very well. Cersei is a lying whore, she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son.”



Tyrion answers Jaime’s question in the end but that is a lie. He wants Jaime to use his head and warns him about Cersei the lying whore. Like Tyrion, GRRM does not spell every little thing out for us. He even gives us many lies as facts, most of them are not as obvious as the one Tyrion said above.



Cersei is a liar. Worse, she lies to herself when the ugly truth is unbearable for her. She whitewashes herself all the time. In her POVs, we don’t see any confession about how she killed Melara but it is heavily implied that she pushed her to the well she died.



In this thread, I want to explore the lies Cersei told to others or herself, which should enable us to understand more about the obvious or canon information related to her.



“He saw us,” the woman said shrilly.


“So he did,” the man said.


Bran’s fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said. “Before you fall.”


Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. “What are you doing?” the woman demanded.


The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?”


“Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man’s forearm. He let go sheepishly.


The man looked over at the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.



Before Jaime pushed Bran out of the window, he looked at Cersei. He loathed the act but still pushed Bran out of the window. Cersei is known to make her point without saying the words. There is another example of this.



“Yes,” he [Pycelle] wimpered, “yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it.”



Now let us see the first time Jaime and Cersei talking about Bran.



“I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . .”


“Did I tell you to throw him out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.”



Cersei not only lies, but also puts the blame on Jaime to make him ashamed of himself more. She definitely wanted Bran dead. She definitely said this to Jaime without saying the words. Jaime looked at her and understood it just like Pycelle understood that Jon Arryn must die. And Cersei denies them all.



Cersei admits that she lied to Jaime a thousand times.



“Dwarfs don’t lie, is that what you think?”


“Not to me. No more than you would.”


“You great golden fool. He’s lied to you a thousand times, and so have I.”



We know that Cersei is a liar and her promises worth shit.



“You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him.”


“Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather,” said Cersei.


“Why should I? Everyone knows it’s true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock.” The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. “A strong king acts boldly, he doesn’t just talk.”


“Father, I am sorry,” Cersei said, when the door was shut. “Joff has always been willful, I did warn you . . .”


“There is a long league’s worth of difference between willful and stupid. ‘A strong king acts boldly?’ Who told him that?


“Not me, I promise you,” said Cersei. “Most like it was something he heard Robert say . . .”


“The part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert.” Tyrion didn’t want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit.


“Yes, I recall now,” Cersei said, “Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold.”



She was obviously lying here. She was desperate enough to base her lie on to Tyrion’s trolling attempt.



I would like to see more of Cersei’s lies like these if you have any.


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He wants Jaime to use his head and warns him about Cersei the lying whore.

Classy.

“Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt’s gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he’d written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans . . .”

This one was good enough to fool several readers. Close thing my arse, she had Ned ever since he confessed he knew her secret.

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Jaime also reflects in Storm of Swords about how he came to be a member of the Kingsguard. It was almost completely predicated on Cersei's claim that he was going to be married to Lysa Tully, and would therefore be shipped away from her. She said she could put the plans in motion to get him into the Kingsguard, and he agreed. Her basis that he would be married to Lysa was that Tywin was going to be entertaining Hoster Tully at a feast soon thereafter. So while that match might have come to fruition, she definitely convinced him that it was a near sure thing, and just think about all the implications of that lie, and what would have been different had he not joined the KG.


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"


"Inside the room, a man and woman were wrestling. They were both naked. Bran could not tell who they were."




Here is when Cersei berates him for throwing Bran.



"She gave a shudder. He hand want to her bodice and yanked, tearing the silk so her breasts spilled free, and for a time the Stark boy had been forgotten."



Proof that the two scnes did not happen directly after each other.

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Tywin certainly was looking to marry Jaime to Lysa Tully. Further Tywin and Hoster had been planning such a betrothal for sometime. In AFoC Jaime recalls the first time he met Blackfish. He was sent to deliver a message, which was just a pretext to allow him and Lysa to become acquainted. This was prior to his participation in the suppression of the Kingswood Brotherhood and his subsequent knighting. So the plans had been in place for some time and Cersei was correct to assume a betrothal was immanent.


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Cersei lies to herself about the confessions she obtains about Margery as well. (They were obviously obtained under torture, but she seems sure she was correct)



Cersei also lies about what type of person Joffrey was after he was dead when she compares Tommen to him after Tywin's death.



Cersei wants to lie about Aurane Waters looking like Rhaegar, but then she backs out of it.



Cersei also lies about the advice she gives about Bronn to Lolly's mother. (IIRC)



She must likely lied to her father about Tyrion's role in the defense of KL.



Lied to Sansa about Jeyne Poole's fate. (She pretty much became a whore)


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Also


“There was a dagger. The scars on Lady Catelyn’s hands were real enough, she showed them to me. Did you …?”


“Oh, don’t be absurd.” Cersei closed the window. “Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you. Even Robert thought that would have been for the best. ‘We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children,’ he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink.”Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. “Were you alone when Robert said this?”


“You don’t think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children.” Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. “Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?”It was meant as mockery, but she’d cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. “Not Myrcella. Joffrey.”Cersei frowned. “Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself.”“A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father.” He had an uncomfortable thought. “Tyrion almost died because of this bloody dagger. If he knew the whole thing was Joffrey’s work, that might be why …”



But Ned says



Ser Barristan’s look was troubled. “They say night’s beauties fade at dawn, and the children of wine are oft disowned in the morning light.”


“They say so,” Ned agreed, “but not of Robert.” Other men might reconsider words spoken in drunken bravado, but Robert Baratheon would remember and, remembering, would never back down.



Now it might be that Robert does not always remember what he says but it may well be that Cersei blames Robert for saying many things she says herself as her standard excuse.


She probably encouraged Jof to have Bran killed. She had the biggest motive.


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Tywin certainly was looking to marry Jaime to Lysa Tully. Further Tywin and Hoster had been planning such a betrothal for sometime. In AFoC Jaime recalls the first time he met Blackfish. He was sent to deliver a message, which was just a pretext to allow him and Lysa to become acquainted. This was prior to his participation in the suppression of the Kingswood Brotherhood and his subsequent knighting. So the plans had been in place for some time and Cersei was correct to assume a betrothal was immanent.

Oh, interesting, good catch. I shouldn't have referenced it as a lie, for sure- but he definitely remembers it as a manipulation on her part. Plus the manipulation of actually getting him chosen for the Kingsguard against her father's wishes.

Of course, Lysa and Jaime would have been a damn disaster, so that would've caused it's own avalanche of problems, likely.

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This leads further evidence that Cersei was responsible for the poison Joff ingested. There has been a long running theory that she meant to poison Tyrion through the pie that Joff ate. Not the Tyrells or Sansa with the wine. Although that plan may still have been in effect anyways. The main argument people have with it is that we have Cersei has POV chapters where this doesn't come up. But if she lies even to herself then It wouldn't come up. She would have fallen for her own lie that Tyrion is responsible just like Jamie was responsible to Bran. If she did accidentally poison her first born it would also explain why she moved into a more psychotic frame of mind rather than depressed.


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Then there's this classic moment at Cersei's first meeting of the smallest council when Sansa's name comes up...



I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son.



The scary thing is she actually believes it.


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It came to her suddenly that she had stood in this very spot before, on the day Lord Eddard Stark had lost his head. That was not supposed to happen. Joff was supposed to spare his life and send him to the Wall. Stark’s eldest son would have followed him as Lord of Winterfell, but Sansa would have stayed at court, a hostage. Varys and Littlefinger had worked out the terms, and Ned Stark had swallowed his precious honor and confessed his treason to save his daughter’s empty little head. I would have made Sansa a good marriage. A Lannister marriage. Not Joff, of course, but Lancel might have suited, or one of his younger brothers. Petyr Baelish had offered to wed the girl himself, she recalled, but of course that was impossible; he was much too lowborn. If Joff had only done as he was told, Winterfell would never have gone to war, and Father would have dealt with Robert’s brothers.

This is Cersei reminiscing about past failures during her walk of shame. I bolded a particularly interesting part on her thoughts of Sansa. From a discussion in A Clash of Kings.

Varys understood the quickest. “You think to wed King Joffrey to Margaery Tyrell.”

“I do.”

“Joffrey is betrothed to Sansa Stark,” Cersei objected.

“Marriage contracts can be broken. What advantage is there in wedding the king to the daughter of a dead traitor?”

Littlefinger spoke up. “You might point out to His Grace that the Tyrells are much wealthier than the Starks, and that Margaery is said to be lovely . . . and beddable besides.”

“Yes,” said Tyrion, “Joff ought to like that well enough.... Doubtless you know your son better than I do, ” he made himself tell Cersei, “but regardless, there’s still much to be said for a Tyrell marriage. It may be the only way that Joffrey lives long enough to reach his wedding night.”

Littlefinger agreed. “The Stark girl brings Joffrey nothing but her body, sweet as that may be. Margaery Tyrell brings fifty thousand swords and all the strength of Highgarden.”

“Indeed. ” Varys laid a soft hand on the queen’s sleeve. “You have a mother’s heart, and I know His Grace loves his little sweetling. Yet kings must learn to put the needs of the realm before their own desires. I say this offer must be made.”

The queen pulled free of the eunuch’s touch. “You would not speak so if you were women. Say what you will, my lords, but Joffrey is too proud to settle for Renly’s leavings. He will never consent.”

Tyrion shrugged. “When the king comes of age in three years, he may give or withhold his consent as he pleases. Until then, you are his regent and I am his Hand, and he will marry whomever we tell him to marry. Leavings or no.”

Cersei’s quiver was empty. “Make your offer then, but gods save you all if Joff does not like this girl.”

Here we Cersei arguing vigorously to oppose a different marriage for Joffrey, and keeping the bethrothal to Sansa in place.

It fits Cersei's pattern of saying if only things had worked out differently, then she would have been able to be this perfect ruler. But, no, she had to be born a woman, and Jon Arryn made her marry Robbert Baratheon, and Jaime was never serious meaning she had to do the heavy lifting, yada yada. However, she appears to be rewriting history in her head.

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This is Sansa reminiscing about past failures during her walk of shame. I bolded a particularly interesting part on her thoughts of Sansa. From a discussion in A Clash of Kings.

Here we Cersei arguing vigorously to oppose a different marriage for Joffrey, and keeping the bethrothal to Sansa in place.

It fits Cersei's pattern of saying if only things had worked out differently, then she would have been able to be this perfect ruler. But, no, she had to be born a woman, and Jon Arryn made her marry Robbert Baratheon, and Jaime was never serious meaning she had to do the heavy lifting, yada yada. However, she appears to be rewriting history in her head.

You mean Cersei, right?

But yeah, I totally agree. Cersei has a major case of hindsight bias. She lies to herself to make herself seem better than she really is, my guess is to justify her lust for power.

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Good topic, and it's key to understanding Cersei. So many people take her word - and especially her thoughts - as gospel, and consequently base their opinions on those around her on Cersei's rather skewed perception of reality.



I don't think I have any to add, as all those I could think of off the top of my head has already been covered - but then it's quite a list already!


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You mean Cersei, right?

But yeah, I totally agree. Cersei has a major case of hindsight bias. She lies to herself to make herself seem better than she really is, my guess is to justify her lust for power.

This is a woman who has never been known to accept responsibility or fault for anything, even if it is almost entirely her fault.

Cersei says Sansa revealed to her all Ned's plans, when it was Ned who told Cersei his plans while Sansa just told her that Ned was sending her back to WF. Cersei misremembers this to boost her credibility as a player.

and for an instant looked so much like Lord Tywin that she stumbled . . . She saw Ned Stark and beside him little Sansa . . . Every child squirming through the crowd become her brother Tyrion, jeering at her as he had jeered when Joffrey died.

Tyrion never jeered at her, but tried to comfort her.

Cersei has a clear habit of rewriting reality to fit the story/view she prefers.

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Now it might be that Robert does not always remember what he says but it may well be that Cersei blames Robert for saying many things she says herself as her standard excuse.

She probably encouraged Jof to have Bran killed. She had the biggest motive.

Very clever, haven't thought about that. But I think this is something that we're never gonna find out for sure.

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I wouldn't be surprised if after all the years of lying, it comes back to bite her in the ass. She lied to condemn Margaery and it backfired, resulting in the Walk of Shame. And even more of her lies are gonna haunt her, especially when Myrcella and Tommen die, and people abandon her because they knows she is a compulsive liar. And the final straw in her coffin is that she thinks the Iron Throne is rightfully hers, when it never was in the first place, and when Jon comes to claim what was stolen from him, she will go even more bat-shit crazy and burn down the Red Keep to send him a big fat F*** U. Jaime, having realizing every one of Cersei's follies will strangle her in the aftermath.

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