Cersei's Lies

[Milady May]

Very interesting analysis! It may be one of the reasons of the paranoia, if she thinks lying like that is natural, how could she trust anybody?

[Mithras]

Good topic, and it's key to understanding Cersei. So many people take her word - and especially her thoughts - as gospel, and consequently base their opinions on those around her on Cersei's rather skewed perception of reality.

Thanks. People like to take the words of Varys as gospel too.

“A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father.” He had an uncomfortable thought. “Tyrion almost died because of this bloody dagger. If he knew the whole thing was Joffrey’s work, that might be why . . .”

“I don’t care why,” Cersei said. “He can take his reasons down to hell with him.”

Cersei refuses to think the motives of Tyrion. That means either she is enslaved by her paranoia due to the valonqar prophecy or she did a terrible thing but constructed an alternate reality to hide her guilt, hence tshe does not want to think anything that can shatter that wall she built.

We should really give it a chance to the notion that Cersei planned to murder Tyrion by poisoning his pie.

Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, “He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw.”

“He did not choke.” Cersei’s voice was sharp as Ser Ilyn’s sword. “My son was poisoned.” She looked to the white knights standing helplessly around her. “Kingsguard, do your duty.”

“My lady?” said Ser Loras Tyrell, uncertain.

“Arrest my brother,” she commanded him. “He did this, the dwarf. Him and his little wife. They killed my son. Your king. Take them! Take them both!”

Tyrells were definitely planning to poison Joffrey (Margaery was suppposed to be the poisoner). Lady Alerie's words are strange. I think she assumed Jofrey indeed was choked with the pie because they were the one who was going to poison him. But Cersei was quite sure that Joffrey was poisoned. Either she was plagued by the valonqar prophecy or she knew the pie Tyrion supposed to eat was poisoned.

The valonqar prophecy says Cersei will be strangled by the valonqar so it is thematically fitting for Cersei to try to kill Tyrion by the strangler.

I believe Cersei wanted to show a middle finger to Maggy by killing Tyrion with the strangler. And judging from the way things worked, Maggy owned Cersei by a supermassive bitch please.

[Angstasia]

In Storm of Swords Jaime IX: Cersei closed the window.“Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you. Even Robert thought that would have been for the best. ‘We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children’ he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink.” Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day.“Were you alone when Robert said this?” "You don't think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children.” Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls.“Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?” It was meant as mockery, but she’d cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once.“Not Myrcella. Joffrey.” Cersei frowned.“Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself .”

There are several points of interest here. Note the bolded parts. In Cersei's version, she includes the detail of Robert being drunk when he said Bran should be given a mercy death. This shows that Jaime who has guarded Robert for almost fifteen years would not believe Robert would normally say such a thing. Perhaps this is why Robert is drunk at all in Cersei's story to Jaime.

It seems the twins have forgotten the way they reacted when they heard of Bran's prospect of survival in Game of Thrones Tyrion I: The glance that passed between Jaime and Cersei lasted no more than a second, but he did not miss it. Then his sister dropped her gaze to the table. "That is no mercy. These northern gods are cruel to let the child linger in such pain." When Cersei says this, both Tommen and Myrcella were present at the breakfast. Thoughtless certainly. Given her nature, she would certainly have repeated this to Joffrey. What Cersei doesn't do, not once at the breakfast in Tyrion's first chapter, is mention Robert. Since the topic of discussion is the survival of the son of Lord Stark, surely Cersei would bring up the things Lord Eddard's best friend Robert Baratheon said about Bran?

We don't have Cersei's POV in either of the above instances. The catspaw assassin who tried to kill Bran said he was doing it because "it would be a mercy". And notice how she brings up Myrcella as a possible candidate for assassinating Bran. She is definitely lying to Jaime. Maybe Joffrey tried to assassinate Bran for his own reasons but heard Cersei's thoughts on the subject and used it as self-justification. Or maybe Cersei put him to it.

On a side note, Jaime also said at the same breakfast that it would be a mercy to kill Bran. He doesn't remember this in Storm of Swords and this has several fruitful implications for discussing and analyzing Jaime's character arc and relationships with respect to Joffrey and Cersei and Jaime's thoughts on fatherhood, on Robert etc.

[Angstasia]

Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day.

But Ned says: Ser Barristan’s look was troubled. “They say night’s beauties fade at dawn, and the children of wine are oft disowned in the morning light.” “They say so,” Ned agreed, “but not of Robert.” Other men might reconsider words spoken in drunken bravado, but Robert Baratheon would remember and, remembering, would never back down. Now it might be that Robert does not always remember what he says but it may well be that Cersei blames Robert for saying many things she says herself as her standard excuse.

She probably encouraged Jof to have Bran killed. She had the biggest motive.

I'm not yet sure what to make of the bolded parts. There seem to be several interesting implications. Anyone has any ideas? And yes Cersei blames Robert for saying many things she says herself as her standard excuse.

“You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him.”

“Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather,” said Cersei.

“Why should I? Everyone knows it’s true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock.” The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. “A strong king acts boldly, he doesn’t just talk.”

“Father, I am sorry,” Cersei said, when the door was shut. “Joff has always been willful, I did warn you . . .”

“There is a long league’s worth of difference between willful and stupid. ‘A strong king acts boldly?’ Who told him that?”

“Not me, I promise you,” said Cersei. “Most like it was something he heard Robert say . . .”

“The part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert.” Tyrion didn’t want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit.

“Yes, I recall now,” Cersei said, “Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold.”

She was obviously lying here. She was desperate enough to base her lie on to Tyrion’s trolling attempt.

The queen regarded him coolly. "I had not thought you so niggardly. The king I'd thought to wed would have laid a wolfskin across my bed before the sun went down." Game of Thrones Eddard III.

Cersei's face was a study in contempt. "What a jape the gods have made of us two," she said. "By all rights, you ought to be in skirts and me in mail." GOT Eddard X.

"Must?" She put her hand on his good leg, just above the knee. "A true man does what he will, not what he must." Eddard XIII.

“Father will never consent,” Jaime objected. “The king won’t ask him. And once it’s done, Father can’t object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne’s tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven

Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand’s guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won’t stop this, either.” “But,” Jaime said,“there’s Casterly Rock...” “Is it a rock you want? Or me?” He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest. A moon’s turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. - Storm of Swords Jaime II.

Cersei rather wished they were not black, though. Black cats brought ill luck, as Rhaegar’s little girl had discovered in this very castle. She would have been my daughter, if the Mad King had not played his cruel jape on Father. It had to have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin’s daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest. - A Feast for Crows Cersei V

Another instance of Cersei unconsciously rewriting her past.

[Addam_Marbrand]

Oh jesus.

I always took it as a given that Joff wanted Bran dead because of Robert.

Now that I look at it, I find it more likely that Cersei did put Joff up to killing Bran.

[Mithras]

/snip

I agree that something does not feel right about the canon dagger story. Joffrey is an idiot. I dont believe he can be trusted to do more complex things in such a dangerous plan other than stealing the dagger from Robert. Finding an assassin and assigning him to the task? Not likely. On the other hand, Cersei is known to use her power and charms to make scums (or the fools like Jaime) do her dirty work. We must also consider the possibility of LF playing a part in this.

[Addam_Marbrand]

I argued something about this the other day. The marriage to Lancel or a brother of his is just Cersei trying to justify her awful treatment of Sansa.

She basically took enjoyment because Sansa would be married to Tyrion(whom she admits is a terrible marriage) and because Sansa would be raped.

[GallantGambler]

Good topic, and it's key to understanding Cersei. So many people take her word - and especially her thoughts - as gospel, and consequently base their opinions on those around her on Cersei's rather skewed perception of reality.

This. So much. It always kind of disheartening to hear people refer to Robert as an evil rapist because Cersei claimed that he raped her.

I'm not excusing Robert's general douchebaggery as far as his marriage was concerned, but given Cersei's penchant for rewriting history and blinding hatred of Bobby B, I'm willing to bet that she's come to consider it rape everytime they ever consummated their marriage.

[GallantGambler]

Sorry for the double post.

[Addam_Marbrand]

This. So much. It always kind of disheartening to hear people refer to Robert as an evil rapist because Cersei claimed that he raped her.

I'm not excusing Robert's general douchebaggery as far as his marriage was concerned, but given Cersei's penchant for rewriting history and blinding hatred of Bobby B, I'm willing to bet that she's come to consider it rape everytime they ever consummated their marriage.

This subject is very controversial on this board.

Topics have been locked. Posters have been banned for discussing this.

Let's not talk about it. Mods are going to nuke this topic if you do.

[GallantGambler]

My bad.

[jet199]

This. So much. It always kind of disheartening to hear people refer to Robert as an evil rapist because Cersei claimed that he raped her.

I'm not excusing Robert's general douchebaggery as far as his marriage was concerned, but given Cersei's penchant for rewriting history and blinding hatred of Bobby B, I'm willing to bet that she's come to consider it rape everytime they ever consummated their marriage.

Cersei never claims Robert raped her. Most people assume he raped her because of how it is described in the AFFC but Cersei does not think that he raped her. She thinks Robert groped and assaulted her so she can't be accused of lying about rape.

To Ned in AGOT

"I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber. Whatever we do, the king is usually so drunk that he’s forgotten it all by the next morning.”

In AFFC

The rule was hers; Cersei did not mean to give it up until Tommen came of age. I waited, so can he. I waited half my life. She had played the dutiful daughter, the blushing bride, the pliant wife. She had suffered Robert’s drunken groping, Jaime’s jealousy, Renly’s mockery, Varys with his titters, Stannis endlessly grinding his teeth.

The main evidence

She wondered what it would feel like to suckle on those breasts, to lay the Myrish woman on her back and push her legs apart and use her as a man would use her, the way Robert would use her when the drink was in him, and she was unable to bring him off with hand or mouth.

Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually, he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them. The only time he’d ever made her wet was on their wedding night.

Robert had been handsome enough when they first married, tall and strong and powerful, but his hair was black and heavy, thick on his chest and coarse around his sex. The wrong man came back from the Trident, the queen would sometimes think as he was plowing her. In the first few years, when he mounted her more often, she would close her eyes and pretend that he was Rhaegar. She could not pretend that he was Jaime; he was too different, too unfamiliar. Even the smell of him was wrong.

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.” To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth. Years later at a feast, she heard him telling a serving wench how he’d cracked the tooth in a mêlée. Well, our marriage was a mêlée, she reflected, so he did not lie.

The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down, Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year, he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.

I think the main way Cersei is unreliable in regards to this is that she thinks Robert was sleeping with her because he wanted her (she also thinks Lollys got raped because she incited the crowds). I think it is more likely that he got completely drunk because he didn't want to have sex with her. Then because he was so drunk he hurt her.

From the walk of shame

I am beautiful, she reminded himself. How many times had Jaime told her that? Even Robert had given her that much, when he came to her bed in his cups to pay her drunken homage with his cock.

She believed Robert couldn't control himself because he secretly desired her but he probably assaulted her because he hated her. He was probably pretending she was Lyanna just like she was pretending he was Rhaegar, it's quite sad really.

[Mithras]

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.” To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth. Years later at a feast, she heard him telling a serving wench how he’d cracked the tooth in a mêlée. Well, our marriage was a mêlée, she reflected, so he did not lie.

The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down, Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year, he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.

Thanks, I was looking for this passage. Now I am certain that Cersei was the one who gave the notion of "mercy to Bran" to Joffrey. I think Robert would never say such a thing to Ned's kid.

[Mithras]

I [Tyrion] should be with them … but no, I had to have a whore. Kinslaying was not enough, I needed cunt and wine to seal my ruin, and here I am on the wrong side of the world, wearing a slave collar with little golden bells to announce my coming. If I dance just right, maybe I can ring “The Rains of Castamere.”

“Did I tell you to throw him [bran] out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.”

“You poor stupid blind crippled fool. Must I spell every little thing out for you? Very well. Cersei is a lying whore.”

The similarity between the first two bolded sentences is striking. I take this as a textual evidence for Cersei the whore was lying about Bran.

[Kungsmurfen]

I ike it. It's interesting to read about and have alot of it collected in the same place :cheers:

but..

Cersei never lied. It's just bad propaganda from her enemies on this board! :commie: ;)

[SerBarristantheOld]

I [Tyrion] should be with them … but no, I had to have a whore. Kinslaying was not enough, I needed cunt and wine to seal my ruin, and here I am on the wrong side of the world, wearing a slave collar with little golden bells to announce my coming. If I dance just right, maybe I can ring “The Rains of Castamere.”

“Did I tell you to throw him [bran] out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.”

“You poor stupid blind crippled fool. Must I spell every little thing out for you? Very well. Cersei is a lying whore.”

The similarity between the first two bolded sentences is striking. I take this as a textual evidence for Cersei the whore was lying about Bran.

The similarities are striking. Chances are it is true

[illrede]

“Father will never consent,” Jaime objected. “The king won’t ask him. And once it’s done, Father can’t object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne’s tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven

Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand’s guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won’t stop this, either.” “But,” Jaime said,“there’s Casterly Rock...” “Is it a rock you want? Or me?” He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest. A moon’s turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. - Storm of Swords Jaime II.

Cersei rather wished they were not black, though. Black cats brought ill luck, as Rhaegar’s little girl had discovered in this very castle. She would have been my daughter, if the Mad King had not played his cruel jape on Father. It had to have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin’s daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest. - A Feast for Crows Cersei V

Another instance of Cersei unconsciously rewriting her past.

I had missed that one.

Here is the thing about having Cersei as a POV in this series. As an unreliable narrator she is blithely contradictory to events. We are given specific instances where we can compare two "copies" and see how she has thoroughly lied in situations where no reader would be suspicious of this being the case unprompted.

And then, if the reader happens to suppose what about every single instance where there isn't a "clean" copy to compare Cersei's internal narrative to...

You've got a mess.

Well, what you've got is a mountain of Junk Data. Use it and you risk turning your analysis to garbage.

EDIT: My favorite one of these is Robert giving Stannis Dragonstone instead of Storms End. Cersei asserted that Robert meant it as a slight. Everyone believed it, and it was taken as authoritive confirmation about how the Baratheon family worked. Then later we get Word of Author that hey, Stannis and Renly were due nothing, those fiefs probably ought to have been reserved for Joffrey and Tommen, Robert loved his brothers even when he didn't like them and it was him being inconsiderately generous, which was a characteristic he had. There isn't any explicit book information to indicate that, and there probably never will be, and the author comment could easily have never have been made.

[Mithras]

“I suppose not.” The king ran his fingers across the table. “Joffrey . . . I remember once, this kitchen cat . . . the cooks were wont to feed her scraps and fish heads. One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he’d killed him.”

“Yes, I recall now,” Cersei said, “Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold.”

“And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father.”

“Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I’d allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I’d kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things . . .”

Some mischief with a cat she says :tantrum:

[Lyse Stark]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica

Do Cersei fits all these criteria outlined in this wiki? I think so.

[TheSpottedCat]

I never believed Bran's assassination was Joffrey's idea, or even his own doing, but, I guess we'll never know. I think it's entirely possible Cersei put him up to it or made suggestive comments. But Cersei trying to assassinate Tyrion at Joffrey's wedding an ending up killing her own son? I just don't buy it. First of all, not even Cersei is as incompetent as that. Secondly, why try to to poison Tyrion at the wedding? We know she has a long-standing hatred for him, but why choose that particular moment of all possible times. Why choose such a public event? Wouldn't it be easier for her to bribe Tyrion's cook to poison his food while Tyrion is dining in private? Or arrange for an accident to befall him. The only other time she tried to have him killed before the wedding was at the battle of the Blackwater, which imo was a good and competent attempt. Many men die in a battle, so it would look like a random event, plus in the confusion of the battle probably no one would notice that it was Mandon Moore that killed him, and not one of the enemy. Tyrion was really lucky that Podrick happened to be around.