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Analyzing the Starks : Stupidity vs Nobility

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I know many love the Starks or think that they are bland. So let's give score to each of their action.


Nobility factor : honorable, smart, kindness, bravery, wise action


Stupidity factor : foolish, ill-considered, recklesness, not thinking ahead


Max total point of both are 100, i'll start



Ned Taking Hand Position


Nobility/Stupidity : 80/20


Why : He was really motivated because he wanted to solve Jon Arryn's alleged murder so that's good for him.Downside is he's going blind not knowing just rough KL politic world is. It also doesn't look like to me that he wanted to adapt



Catelyn Arrested Tyrion


Nobility/Stupidity : 30/70


Why : Yes she has valid reason to arrest him but she lacks of strong proof. Moreover she didn't give heads up to Riverrun and other Riverland house so destruction is unavoidable. And does she really have clear goals with this action?



Catelyn Took Tyrion to Vale


Nobility/Stupidity : 60/40


Why : Smart move, eyrie is difficult to impregnated. But see above, she forgot the heads up



Ned told Cersei that he knows


Nobility/Stupidity : 0/100


Why : Hey watch out i'm gonna stab you so keep still !! Really ned? This is one dumbass move. It's good that he wants to protect the kids, but HE KNOWS how ruthless the Lannister is but still he push that aside. HE KNOWS than Jon Arryn died because of this and he didn't learn anything from it



Cat Gave Tyrion A Trial


Nobility/Stupidity : 50/50


Why : This is not only her but on Lysa too. Tyrion played them and he won



Robb Declared King of the North and Riverland


Nobility/Stupidity : 80/20


Why : I feel like this is exactly what i would do if i were him, grab my own crown when war errupted in every side. Plus the Tyrell were fighting the lannister too so future looks good. Downside, it would be more dutiful to join Stannis



Cat Negotiate with Walder Frey


Nobility/Stupidity : 40/60


Why : Its his stronghold so negotiation couldn't be avoided but i blame Cat's shitty negotiation skill. He simply asked for too much and she granted it



Robb Married Jeyne


Nobility/Stupidity : 0/100


Why : He would dishonor himself either way but in the end he chose his pants. No nobility factor for him



Cat released Jaime


Nobility/Stupidity : 20/80


Why : She was severely depressed and desperate so i might spare her a little. From my pov this action is based purely on emotion without much logical calculation. There's absolutely 0% assurance that Jaime will keep his word. I wouldn't trust a Lannister if i were Cat



Total : 360/540



What's your take ?


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This is interesting. I don't think you are offbase but I'm going to copy the situations and cut your ratings then let it sit for awhile so I forget what you had. Then I'll see how closely we align.

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Ned Taking Hand Position


Nobility/Stupidity : 100/00


Why : He took the job for the right reasons and tried to get back to what the King and Hand should do-spread justice. It also increases his family standing among the Kingdoms and strengthens his and Roberts position



Catelyn Arrested Tyrion


Nobility/Stupidity : 30/70


Why : Agreed



Catelyn Took Tyrion to Vale


Nobility/Stupidity : 70/30


Why : Smart move, eyrie should support her in her effort (Lysas just too crazy). Should have alerted more though and kept better control of Tyrion



Ned told Cersei that he knows


Nobility/Stupidity : 80/20


Why : Ya it's stupid but the children (Tommen and Myrcella) are completely innocent. One of Neds defining characterisitcs is his protection of innocent people, especially children. It's about as noble as you get. Not very clever though as he could have done things differently-get his kids out, take Cersei prisoner and protect Tom and Myr etc



Cat Gave Tyrion A Trial


Nobility/Stupidity : 50/50


Why : Agreed with OP



Robb Declared King of the North and Riverland


Nobility/Stupidity : 80/20


Why : I agree with the OP but for different reasons. Robb was proclaimed King, so it's very hard to say no without losing support and lowering the morale of your army (not great during a war to the death). Stannis hadn't put himself out there as an alternative so he isn't a factor and Robb couldn't bow to Joff. He negotiated with Renly as King. Slightly stupid as it reduces his power to form alliances



Cat Negotiate with Walder Frey


Nobility/Stupidity : 70/30


Why : True Walder got a lot but Robb killed 11000 soldiers by this deal and gained the Riverlands



Robb Married Jeyne


Nobility/Stupidity : 30/70


Why: Terribly dumb thing to do but Robb was in love and didn't want to father a bastard. He deflowered a girl and stuck by her-pretty noble.



Overall: 510/290



I guess this reflects my overall feelings on the Starks. Is Ned as clever as Tywin? Not at all. But how long did Ned last in KL? And how long did Tywin last? Fairly similar. The Starks are full of good intentions and this generation are a noble and honorable bunch mostly, even if the cost of this nobility sometimes leads to stupid actions. Then again I would prefer to be noble and less clever, then clever and a bad person


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Robb Married Jeyne

Nobility/Stupidity : 0/100

Why : He would dishonor himself either way but in the end he chose his pants. No nobility factor for him

I feel like the lone voice crying in the wilderness here, but Robb did not choose 'his pants'. He married for love, and to do right by the girl he slept with.

Anyone still remember that expression 'do right by her'? 'Do the right thing by her and marry her'? Anyone? Anyone at all? (That's called 'being honourable' by the way).

And there was also the matter of falling in love, young and innocent and falling for someone you sleep with. A natural and instinctive thing. Is everybody, even teenagers, nowadays so experienced sexually, they can't relate to this at all? Everybody has disconnected sex from their emotions completely? Everybody??

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I feel like the lone voice crying in the wilderness here, but Robb did not choose 'his pants'. He married for love, and to do right by the girl he slept with.

Your not alone any more buddy :cheers:

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Not to spoil fun, but nobility = intelligence, and nobility is not opposite of stupidity... So, these scales, IMO, needs a bit adjustment. You can't say something is done nobly when you argue it is done intelligently.


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Well there really isn't a seperation between their "stupid" acts and "noble' acts. Pretty much all of their actions are stupid precisely because they are being too noble .



Edit: I should add that of course not ALL of their actions are stupid, I meant the ones that are questionable.


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With such a title, I was hoping for a more comprehensive thread. :dunno:




There are many factors involved in the decision making process. As Mladen says, Nobility is not mutually exclusive with stupidity, but on the many occasions when they conflict I wouldn't say that choosing nobility necessarily means stupidity. Robb knew full well the consequences of his actions when he married Jeyne, but he did the noble thing anyway. That doesn't make it stupid to potentially throw away the support of the Freys, it makes it, in his eyes, the lesser of two evils to marry Jeyne.



Similar things could be said of other decisions. The Starks are not stupid, they are unfortunately bound to a strict moral code which enables them to be outmanoeuvred by those who are not (most people).

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Well there really isn't a seperation between their "stupid" acts and "noble' acts. Pretty much all of their actions are stupid precisely because they are being too noble .

:agree:

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You should add Cat releasing Jaime, btw. Just my opinion.

If we follow the OP rules, that wasn't honorable nor was it smart. So it doesn't count.

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there is a reason the saying Death before Dishonor is so popular. Ya the Starks may have acted "stupidly" in hindsight, but hindsight is always 20/20. They did everything they did because it was the right thing to do. They paid the ultimate price, sure. But do you think if they could do it over again, they would do anything differently?



The only thing that Robb did that was completely stupid and without any bearing was leaving the North. He should of declared himself king and made Tywin go up and get him, especially after he captured Jaime. He could of sat in the North with his base of power (Winterfell) intact and held out at the Neck. This would of gave him more bargaining power as Tywin would have known going up to the North would be suicide.


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Ned Taking Hand Position

Nobility/Stupidity : 90/10

Why : His best friend, basically a brother, who happens to be King is asking him to take the 2nd highest position in the Kingdom. In theory it betters his family’s position long term. The stupid part is only here because he knew something was fishy before leaving, but it’s not like he could have changed his mind.`

Catelyn Arrested Tyrion

Nobility/Stupidity : 10/90

Why : She wasn’t acting out of nobility she was acting out of rage and anger. (I would have done the same if not more).

Catelyn Took Tyrion to Vale

Nobility/Stupidity : 50/50

Why : Made sense because she thought her sister would back her, but it also drew her into danger.

Ned told Cersei that he knows

Nobility/Stupidity : 95/5

Why : It was done so the children would not die, that is the meaning of being noble to me. Stupid because she is treacherous and he had very few people to truly trust at KL

Cat Gave Tyrion A Trial

Nobility/Stupidity : INVALID

Why : Cat did not give the trial. He demanded it and Lysa agreed

Robb Declared King of the North and Riverland

Nobility/Stupidity : Again, INVALID

Why : Robb didn’t say, HEY crown me King! His men decided they wanted him for king.

Cat Negotiate with Walder Frey

Nobility/Stupidity : 80/20

Why : Noble, well, she did what was needed. Stupid, not in my opinion. They had no choice. Maybe she could have married off Bran or Rickon but Walder wouldn’t have accepted that. He would have said no, and not let them pass. Then sided with Lannisters and Starks are doubly screwed.

Robb Married Jeyne

Nobility/Stupidity : 50/50

Why : Marrying her was noble, having relations in the first place was where he went wrong. Pretty stupid move.

Total : 375/225

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If we follow the OP rules, that wasn't honorable nor was it smart. So it doesn't count.

Wouldn't that be 0/100? The OP is just listing actions and assessing. What rule are you thinking of?

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Catelyn Arrested Tyrion

Nobility/Stupidity : 30/70

Why : Yes she has valid reason to arrest him but she lacks of strong proof. Moreover she didn't give heads up to Riverrun and other Riverland house so destruction is unavoidable. And does she really have clear goals with this action?

Catelyn Took Tyrion to Vale

Nobility/Stupidity : 60/40

Why : Smart move, eyrie is difficult to impregnated. But see above, she forgot the heads up

Considering that the news spread all the way to Casterly Rock, it's virtually guaranteed that they spread through whole Riverlands, as well, including Riverrun. Do you assume only one witness from the inn raced with this piece of incredibly juicy news straight to Tywin, but everyone else for some unfathomable reasons kept their mouths firmly shut?

Cat Gave Tyrion A Trial

Nobility/Stupidity : 50/50

Why : This is not only her but on Lysa too. Tyrion played them and he won

Not "Lysa too", but "wholly Lysa". Sorry, the decision was simply out of Cat's hands, so I don't get how can you judge Cat here.

Robb Declared King of the North and Riverland

Nobility/Stupidity : 80/20

Why : I feel like this is exactly what i would do if i were him, grab my own crown when war errupted in every side. Plus the Tyrell were fighting the lannister too so future looks good. Downside, it would be more dutiful to join Stannis

One, Robb didn't declare himself king, the northmen and the riverlords did. Two, why on Earth would it be "dutiful" for him to join Stannis, if he had no idea about the twincest?

Cat Negotiate with Walder Frey

Nobility/Stupidity : 40/60

Why : Its his stronghold so negotiation couldn't be avoided but i blame Cat's shitty negotiation skill. He simply asked for too much and she granted it

OK, how do you know what terms Walder would agree on? And is a marriage alliance really that big a price to ask for joining an open rebellion against the Iron Throne, with two Lannister armies already ravaging the Riverlands? Hell, Hoster Tully in a similar situation demanded - and got - two marriage alliances with two Great Houses.

Robb Married Jeyne

Nobility/Stupidity : 0/100

Why : He would dishonor himself either way but in the end he chose his pants. No nobility factor for him

Agreed on this one, at least.

I feel like the lone voice crying in the wilderness here, but Robb did not choose 'his pants'. He married for love, and to do right by the girl he slept with.

Anyone still remember that expression 'do right by her'? 'Do the right thing by her and marry her'? Anyone? Anyone at all? (That's called 'being honourable' by the way).

And there was also the matter of falling in love, young and innocent and falling for someone you sleep with. A natural and instinctive thing. Is everybody, even teenagers, nowadays so experienced sexually, they can't relate to this at all? Everybody has disconnected sex from their emotions completely? Everybody??

Awww, that's so darn cute. And yet I simply don't give a fuck about any of that. Robb was a king, goddammit, and he should act like one. He gave his word. The Freys fought for him, some of them died for him - how about doing right by them?

As for your rhetorical question - believe it or not, not everybody is a king leading his country in war. If Robb didn't fancy marrying for political reasons, he should've rejected Walder's terms and stayed on the wrong side of the Trident. A deal is a deal.

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You should add Cat releasing Jaime, btw. Just my opinion.

Good one, just added

Not to spoil fun, but nobility = intelligence, and nobility is not opposite of stupidity... So, these scales, IMO, needs a bit adjustment. You can't say something is done nobly when you argue it is done intelligently.

I guess what i'm trying to do here is to score their action,which side they're dominantly leaning forward to

Nobility here could also mean wise action = inteligence, if there's any noble action but not executed in wise way that would be 50/50. Noble and wise at highest would be 100/0

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As regards Robb, we don't know enough about the economy of the North, the taxation between it and KL or any of the other things that go along with it. Since I do not once here any Northerner complaining about taxation without representation or whatever I am going to say this King of the North thing was one of the dumbest things in the series.



No thought was given to lining up trade agreements, or allies or anything else before such a decision was made, which was certainly not going to be viewed favourably by whoever got the crown. Really, really, really dumb.


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I guess what i'm trying to do here is to score their action,which side they're dominantly leaning forward to

Nobility here could also mean wise action = inteligence, if there's any noble action but not executed in wise way that would be 50/50. Noble and wise at highest would be 100/0

Well, I could never guess that nobility could be interpreted as intelligence. Since English is not my first language, I am sorry for my mistake.

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Well, I could never guess that nobility could be interpreted as intelligence. Since English is not my first language, I am sorry for my mistake.

Nobility =/= intelligence at all, your English is fine.

Nobility noun

  1. 1.

    the quality of being noble in character, mind, birth, or rank.

    synonyms:

    virtue, goodness, honor, decency, integrity; More

  2. 2.

    the group of people belonging to the noble class in a country, esp. those with a hereditary or honorary title.

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