Do you view Daenerys as a dishonorable character?

[Hajk]

So far Daenerys has (in my opinion) done some pretty dishonorable things during the series. She let's her husband pillage lands so, that they would get wealth for ships. She later steals an unsullied army, attacks Yunkai and Meereen and takes control of the latter without any rights.

So do you view her acts as dishonorable ones or is there something, that justifies them?

I think Dany's views are evolving and not static/constant. She is not a knight and has sworn no oaths so that kind of honor is not applicable. The question is what sort of honor is applicable to her situation?

There are two questions here.

1. Will the reader, assuming that these actions are happening in a real world see her as moral/sympathetic/honorable?

AND

2. Does the author intend to portray her as primarily moral/sympathetic/honorable?

In my opinion the answer to no. 2 is almost surely yes.

The answer to number 1 is more complex and views vary, depending on whether one finds relativistic evaluation relevant and/or her actions as evolving in terms of her maturity or simply inconsistent. I personally don't see the evidence that there is any awareness of any such thing as a social contract morality being consciously followed here and justice is more like vigilante cowboy style justice in many cases. I also find her inexperience and age as relevant factors to excuse some of her excesses.

[jons nissa]

So far Daenerys has (in my opinion) done some pretty dishonorable things during the series. She let's her husband pillage lands so, that they would get wealth for ships. She later steals an unsullied army, attacks Yunkai and Meereen and takes control of the latter without any rights.

she doesn't allow her husband to do anything. she had nothing to do with that. as for stealing the army, she tricks them. not the same thing. it is definitely not presented as a theft by the mood or tone.

Ned ? Stannis ?

stannis is hardly honorable but yes, ned is a perfect example of making difficult decisions when honor is at stake.

Dany only did one wrong action, buying the Unsullied and then killing the traders. Everything else is fine.

this is hardly a wrong action.

I think Dany's views are evolving and not static/constant. She is not a knight and has sworn no oaths so that kind of honor is not applicable. The question is what sort of honor is applicable to her situation?

There are two questions here.

1. Will the reader, assuming that these actions are happening in a real world see her as moral/sympathetic/honorable?

AND

2. Does the author intend to portray her as primarily moral/sympathetic/honorable?

In my opinion the answer to no. 2 is almost surely yes.

The answer to number 1 is more complex and views vary, depending on whether one finds relativistic evaluation relevant and/or her actions as evolving in terms of her maturity or simply inconsistent. I personally don't see the evidence that there is any awareness of any such thing as a social contract morality being consciously followed here and justice is more like vigilante cowboy style justice in many cases. I also find her inexperience and age as relevant factors to excuse some of her excesses.

well said!

[Winter's Knight]

Is she dishonorable? Maybe, but who isn't? It's just the world they live in and the definition of Honor they use. Cheating the Slave Masters, dishonorable? Maybe, but don't expect me to cry over men who cost millions of lives. Someone once broke down the "cost" of each unsullied, for 1 unsullied soldier something like 10 people die. I'm not shedding tears over ending that practice.

Is it my post you refer to?

People say that Dany has caused a lot of death and destruction and I'd disagree. Death-violent, painful death- has always been a part of Slaver's Bay. She just mad sure that the parties responsible for it feel it as well.

Take her death tolls in battle: let's assume she emptied out one whole city completely or 100,000 people. This is a very high estimate I might add but let's go with it.

Now, in comparision, we'll take the Unsullied.

We'll assume that they have one new batch every year. Dany's batch is 8,600.

We're told that only one third of the boys survive training. Ergo, 17,200 boys died from Dany's batch.

Which means that the total number of boys who survived being cut (minus the number who were fed to dogs because they couldn't strangle their puppies) was 25,800.

We're assuming a ridiculously high rate of recovery from being cut: 50%. So we have the number of boys who died at 43,000.

Add in the 8,600 babies killed for the Unsullied to finish their training: 51,600.

That's half of a high estimate of the deaths caused by Dany, for one batch of Unsullied in one city, and I'd like to point out that the usual survival rate from castration at a young age ranged from one in three (30%) to one in ten (10%).

[MoIaF]

"Honour" can lead to Ned resigning his office, rather than sanction the murder of a pregnant 14 year old; or to Ser Barristan standing aside as Aerys rips out a woman's private parts and burns her alive.

Agree.

Honour is a finicky think, as you mention there are many things that are quite horrendous that have been done or not done in the case of Barristan in the name of honour.

Putting the sack of Astapor aside, what Dany did to the Great Masters might not have been honorable but, releasing the Unsullied from slavery was. Not everything is so clear cut.

[Dany Girl]

Is it my post you refer to?

Yep, it was your post, couldn't remember the exact numbers or who the original poster was, so just guessed and left it blank. The numbers are quite staggering, and considering how many batches have been made, add in all the other slaves that die, either being captured, transported, or during their type of "training," I have a hard time mustering up any sympathy for the people killed in Astapor, especially the Good Masters.

[MoIaF]

Is it my post you refer to?

People say that Dany has caused a lot of death and destruction and I'd disagree. Death-violent, painful death- has always been a part of Slaver's Bay. She just mad sure that the parties responsible for it feel it as well.

Take her death tolls in battle: let's assume she emptied out one whole city completely or 100,000 people. This is a very high estimate I might add but let's go with it.

Now, in comparision, we'll take the Unsullied.

We'll assume that they have one new batch every year. Dany's batch is 8,600.

We're told that only one third of the boys survive training. Ergo, 17,200 boys died from Dany's batch.

Which means that the total number of boys who survived being cut (minus the number who were fed to dogs because they couldn't strangle their puppies) was 25,800.

We're assuming a ridiculously high rate of recovery from being cut: 50%. So we have the number of boys who died at 43,000.

Add in the 8,600 babies killed for the Unsullied to finish their training: 51,600.

That's half of a high estimate of the deaths caused by Dany, for one batch of Unsullied in one city, and I'd like to point out that the usual survival rate from castration at a young age ranged from one in three (30%) to one in ten (10%).

That is an astronomical amount of death in order to create the Unsullied. It's alms incomprehensible which is why I believe Dany acted the way she did.

[Nictarion]

Ned ? Stannis ?

Stannis used black magic to kill his brother, and he cheated on his wife to do so. I don't think he belongs in the same conversation as Ned regarding honor.

As to the OP, no I don't see Dany as dishonorable. People that have a problem with her cheating the Good Masters crack me up. They were scum, the worst people we've seen in the story, who cares that Dany "cheated" them.

She also could have went the easy route, and did a Red Wedding like Daario suggested, but she didn't. So she has limits, even when it comes to people she despises.

[Nictarion]

An antihero, IMHO.

I think she displays too many traditional heroic qualities to be labeled an antihero.

I see someone like Sandor as a antihero.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It depends. Anybody surprised that I don't immediately bash Dany? :cool4:

There is just one instance which I would call outright dishonorable. And that's the wineseller's daughters. On the other hand, Dany championing the downtrodden is something very honorable.

But: her dealings with the Great Masters, her threatening and outright attacking envoys, her endless breaking of treaties, that all is perceived as dishonorable in the reality of the books. As the means to an end, I can accept it. My problem with Dany acting like this is that she doesn't think about the consequences and doesn't compare the long-term negative consequences to the short-term benefit at all, leading to a great, steaming pile straight on her way, to be cleaned only with a great deal of bloodshed. Mostly from those she champions.

[Hajk]

It depends. Anybody surprised that I don't immediately bash Dany? :cool4:

There is just one instance which I would call outright dishonorable. And that's the wineseller's daughters. On the other hand, Dany championing the downtrodden is something very honorable.

But: her dealings with the Great Masters, her threatening and outright attacking envoys, her endless breaking of treaties, that all is perceived as dishonorable in the reality of the books. As the means to an end, I can accept it. My problem with Dany acting like this is that she doesn't think about the consequences and doesn't compare the long-term negative consequences to the short-term benefit at all, leading to a great, steaming pile straight on her way, to be cleaned only with a great deal of bloodshed. Mostly from those she champions.

There isn't an endless breaking of treaties. How many treaties has she negotiated, signed, and broken?

And we must remember that her opponents are quite possibly the vilest characters in the books, even with the standards of that world. Astapor seems to be far worse than the worst forms of mass slavery in our world. That makes it easier to see her moral outrage and her motivations. I don't think GRRM intended to portray her as anything but good hearted in these endeavors.

[Winter's Knight]

I mean, I do wish her opponents were more...defendable. But they're not even Disney Villain-likeable.

[Dany Girl]

I mean, I do wish her opponents were more...defendable. But they're not even Disney Villain-likeable.

I agree. It's one of the things that baffles me when people try to call her evil for taking them out. Like, what? Are you really defending these completely irredeemable evil characters?

It's also why I'm excited to see her get to Westeros or at least meet up with Tyrion/Vic... it'll be interesting to see her square off against other characters that we know and sometimes love.

[Winter's Knight]

I agree. It's one of the things that baffles me when people try to call her evil for taking them out. Like, what? Are you really defending these completely irredeemable evil characters?

It's also why I'm excited to see her get to Westeros or at least meet up with Tyrion/Vic... it'll be interesting to see her square off against other characters that we know and sometimes love.

Right? I mean, they're almost offensibly bad. They're "Perils of Pauline" bad.

[Dany Girl]

Right? I mean, they're almost offensibly bad. They're "Perils of Pauline" bad.

Ya, I completely agree. I've yet to see any redeemable qualities of the Slavers Bay societies. Like, if at least they produced beautiful art or rugs or something, but no. They only produce slaves, and kill countless people doing so. I say kill them all (the slavers that is, just so people don't confuse me with thinking every person in the region should die).

[Gneisenau]

There isn't an endless breaking of treaties. How many treaties has she negotiated, signed, and broken?

And we must remember that her opponents are quite possibly the vilest characters in the books, even with the standards of that world. Astapor seems to be far worse than the worst forms of mass slavery in our world. That makes it easier to see her moral outrage and her motivations. I don't think GRRM intended to portray her as anything but good hearted in these endeavors.

I'm not quite sure why her opponents being the vilest makes it any better for Dany to what she does ? Is she a self appointed judge jury and executioner ?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

There isn't an endless breaking of treaties. How many treaties has she negotiated, signed, and broken?

Three out of four. And that's basically the reason why every single power she may consider an opponent marshals an army against her, with negotiations useless: They have experienced that they can't trust her at all.

[Kurogane]

What Dany did at Astapor at Astapor was break a pact. That's objectively dishonorable. The respective morality of Dany and the Good Masters is a different issue.

BTW, is anybody else annoyed that the Ghiscari are so degenerate? I don't like them at all, but I feel like GRRM should have made them have at least some attractive features as a culture. Everything about them is vile, which makes them less interesting.

[Winter's Knight]

What Dany did at Astapor at Astapor was break a pact. That's objectively dishonorable. The respective morality of Dany and the Good Masters is a different issue.

BTW, is anybody else annoyed that the Ghiscari are so degenerate? I don't like them at all, but I feel like GRRM should have made them have at least some attractive features as a culture. Everything about them is vile, which makes them less interesting.

:P

I mean, I do wish her opponents were more...defendable. But they're not even Disney Villain-likeable.

I agree. It's one of the things that baffles me when people try to call her evil for taking them out. Like, what? Are you really defending these completely irredeemable evil characters?

It's also why I'm excited to see her get to Westeros or at least meet up with Tyrion/Vic... it'll be interesting to see her square off against other characters that we know and sometimes love.

Right? I mean, they're almost offensibly bad. They're "Perils of Pauline" bad.

Ya, I completely agree. I've yet to see any redeemable qualities of the Slavers Bay societies. Like, if at least they produced beautiful art or rugs or something, but no. They only produce slaves, and kill countless people doing so. I say kill them all (the slavers that is, just so people don't confuse me with thinking every person in the region should die).

Oh.

I'm not quite sure why her opponents being the vilest makes it any better for Dany to what she does ? Is she a self appointed judge jury and executioner ?

Is there an alternative though? Would it be better if she'd left everything as it was?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

BTW, is anybody else annoyed that the Ghiscari are so degenerate? I don't like them at all, but I feel like GRRM should have made them have at least some attractive features as a culture. Everything about them is vile, which makes them less interesting.

That's difficult to estimate - we see them only through Westerosi PoVs, with all their (negative) biases. A Ghiscari PoV would probably do wonders for them. Objectively, they are not far from the Romans, and those are lauded throughout Western history.

But, and I'm speculating here, GRRM may intend that impression, to make it easy to sympathize with Dany. And to shock us readers, when she deals with the Westerosi as with the Ghiscari.

[Gneisenau]

Is there an alternative though? Would it be better if she'd left everything as it was?

There wouldn't be war, and since people sell themselves into slavery it is clear that Dany did not create the proper economic conditions that would make slavery unattractive, so as a whole I would say it would be around the same.