Let's defend Cersei in this topic

[complexphoenix]

This was made politically necessary to thwart another Tyrell plot, with Tywin's support behind it. Until then there was no push for it. It was political expediency. This didn't make her unkind. It just made her pragmatic.

I think her own POV is pretty good evidence of her internal thoughts. Forcing it into this situation of her purposefully misremembering etc. seems fanciful. There is no real evidence for it beyond a desire to downplay anything that may look a hated character look better.

I notice that you are completely ignoring the Lady and Ser Ilyn parts.

Oh, I'm not denying that she is, in fact, thinking all of that stuff - I'm saying that her thoughts are factually incorrect because she's delusional. So much of what she claims is at odds with what other POV characters show us. Sansa's POV shows us very clearly that Cersei was, in fact, quite cruel to Sansa. Eddard's POV and secondhand information from other POVs shows us that Robert, although very flawed, was by no means a monster and had a huge capacity for forgiveness and generosity. Cersei is telling herself that she was nice to Sansa and Robert was a monster because she wants to believe it, not because it's true.

[Dany Girl]

I do not think we can hold that off screen interaction between parents and children is minimal. Despite what you say, all the Stark children love and are loved by their parents. And the influence of Ned and Cat is clear in all of them.

Hence my point that raising them in this manner is not an insult, nor does it mean they're not loved by their parents. Of course the parents have influence, but I think there are others that have more influence in the general nature of the children.

[Hajk]

She loves her children as extensions of herself, not as separate people. She doesn't really care about their feelings or wants, only about what she wants for them. In that, she's very like her father.

That is just wrong in my opinion. And given the natural tendency of human nature, I feel that in any case where someone alleges that a mother does not love her children, a very heavy burden of proof rests on the one making the accusation, not on the mother.

I notice that you are completely ignoring the Lady and Ser Ilyn parts.

I didn't think there was much to say here. She was spiteful in the Lady case. So what? I haven't argued that she is above being spiteful Her own POVs make that conclusion impossible. She's greyer than that. As for Ser Ilyn, what of it? Those were very difficult times and Cersei was not her best self (expecting death and disaster soon).

[Kasporio]

I always wondered.. about Ned behaeding... she pretended to be unable to avoid the execution since Ylin and Janos were to eager for.

Is that right ?

Or did she had another mental construct to deny her responsibilities?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Cersei in AGOT was a villain you could love to hate. A deeply flawed individual who was trying in her own strange way to better herself within an intensely patriarchal society (Asha has opportunities Cersei could only dream of). A product of terrible parenting who never understood what a healthy child-rearing environment looked like, and in turn screwed up her own kids. Someone who learnt all the wrong political lessons from her father. A victim of a domestic violence from a fat cheating pig.

Cersei in AFFC is a self parody - her villainy is cartoonish and her motivations all hinge on a half-arsed prophecy.

[Hajk]

Hence my point that raising them in this manner is not an insult, nor does it mean they're not loved by their parents. Of course the parents have influence, but I think there are others that have more influence in the general nature of the children.

In that case I'll say that the fact that Tommen and Myrcella are good kids has to do with Cersei's good influences as well. She has certainly been more of parent than either Robert or Jaime. as far as the children are concerned, she has been their only real parent.

[Hajk]

Cersei in AGOT was a villain you could love to hate. A deeply flawed individual who was trying in her own strange way to better herself within an intensely patriarchal society (Asha has opportunities Cersei could only dream of). A product of terrible parenting who never understood what a healthy child-rearing environment looked like, and in turn screwed up her own kids. Someone who learnt all the wrong political lessons from her father. A victim of a domestic violence from a fat cheating pig.

Cersei in AFFC is a self parody - her villainy is cartoonish and her motivations all hinge on a half-arsed prophecy.

Cersei in AFFC has lost both father and son and starts at a point where it now seems like the most terrifying parts of the prophecy have started to come true. Obviously she would be focused on it.

[complexphoenix]

That is just wrong in my opinion. And given the natural tendency of human nature, I feel that in any case where someone alleges that a mother does not love her children, a very heavy burden of proof rests on the one making the accusation, not on the mother.

I didn't think there was much to say here. She was spiteful in the Lady case. So what? I haven't argued that she is above being spiteful Her own POVs make that conclusion impossible. She's greyer than that. As for Ser Ilyn, what of it? Those were very difficult times and Cersei was not her best self (expecting death and disaster soon).

I'm not saying she doesn't love them, I'm saying she loves them in a messed-up way that prioritizes her own feelings and needs over theirs. She certainly has maternal instincts, but she doesn't treat them like a good mother should.

"So what"!? They were pointless acts of hideous cruelty that were utterly without justification and you're just writing them off? Seriously? I happen to think that they are character-revealing moments, not aberrations. A good person would not have done either of those things, only a bad person would.

[The Marquis de Leech]

And attacking Cersei's sex life strikes me as more than a tad sexist. Cersei has slept with four men (Jaime, Robert, Lancel, and Kettleblack), and one woman (Lady Merryweather). If you consider sleeping around morally negative (I don't), she's done far less than the likes of Tyrion, let alone Robert.

[Dany Girl]

In that case I'll say that the fact that Tommen and Myrcella are good kids has to do with Cersei's good influences as well. She has certainly been more of parent than either Robert or Jaime. as far as the children are concerned, she has been their only real parent.

I do agree she's been their only parental figure, and she does seem to treat them well, as long as they listen to her completely. The minute Tommen exerts some self agency she forces him to whip his whipping boy. So while she does love them, her love is limited by her own psychological conditions. She's a narcissist, and a lot of her love is conditional, this applies to everyone, not just her kids. She loves Jaime as long as he behaves and looks the way she wants him to. She loves her children, but their own agency clouds that.

[complexphoenix]

Cersei in AGOT was a villain you could love to hate. A deeply flawed individual who was trying in her own strange way to better herself within an intensely patriarchal society (Asha has opportunities Cersei could only dream of). A product of terrible parenting who never understood what a healthy child-rearing environment looked like, and in turn screwed up her own kids. Someone who learnt all the wrong political lessons from her father. A victim of a domestic violence from a fat cheating pig.

Cersei in AFFC is a self parody - her villainy is cartoonish and her motivations all hinge on a half-arsed prophecy.

The way I see it, Cersei's sanity slowly deteriorates over the course of ACOK as she suffers from constant fear that she's going to be killed along with everyone she cares about, and then in ASOS, Joffrey and her father are murdered just when she thinks she's safe and it sends her over the edge. It doesn't excuse any of her bad behavior, but it does explain why she becomes so bloody paranoid and stupid.

[SerBarristantheOld]

I do agree she's been their only parental figure, and she does seem to treat them well, as long as they listen to her completely. The minute Tommen exerts some self agency she forces him to whip his whipping boy. So while she does love them, her love is limited by her own psychological conditions. She's a narcissist, and a lot of her love is conditional, this applies to everyone, not just her kids. She loves Jaime as long as he behaves and looks the way she wants him to. She loves her children, but their own agency clouds that.

I think Cersei is confused by what she wants Tommen to be. She thinks that Tommen's meekness bothers her at one point, but also gets angry when he becomes defiant. I think its maternal. She wants Tommen to be strong, but Cersei believes she knows best and is thus trying to protect him and doesn't want him to grow too strong.

She was mostly proud of Joffrey, and he was very defiant. Cersei even acknowledges it.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Cersei in AFFC has lost both father and son and starts at a point where it now seems like the most terrifying parts of the prophecy have started to come true. Obviously she would be focused on it.

Losing father and son makes for interesting character development. But the prophecy trivialises it. Cersei has all sorts of interesting reasons for disliking Tyrion, in comparison to which the prophecy simply makes all her actions one-dimensional.

Martin has wrecked Cersei as a believable character. He turned her into a parody, and then encouraged the reader to laugh at/hate her.

[Hajk]

I'm not saying she doesn't love them, I'm saying she loves them in a messed-up way that prioritizes her own feelings and needs over theirs. She certainly has maternal instincts, but she doesn't treat them like a good mother should.

She seems to treat Joffrey (who is most relevant to the earlier story) as a loving mother would, perhaps not a good mother, but I'm pretty sure that the good mother archetype in current society has also come about recently, and mothers doing all sorts of screwed up stuff in their mothering have been pretty common in history. Mostly they are even able to raise decent children.

"So what"!? They were pointless acts of hideous cruelty that were utterly without justification and you're just writing them off? Seriously? I happen to think that they are character-revealing moments, not aberrations. A good person would not have done either of those things, only a bad person would.

I don't think we should paint people as cartoonish good or bad people. There are shades of grey. I am willing to accept that Cersei is somewhat grey. She is not like the Masters of Astapor. But she has done some nasty things. That does not define her.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

Why do people think Cersei is this utterly evil character without redeeming qualities? She's no Ramsay Bolton or Gregor Clegane.

Cersei is easily the most tragic villain in the series. She wasn't a evil girl growing up. She may have been cold and prideful, but that can be blamed entirely on her father. It wasn't until her marriage to Robert where he raped her constantly that she became evil.

In short, I would say Cersei really isn't evil at all. If she were raised by a decent man, and wasn't sold off to an abusive husband, she'd be more like a Catelyn Tully type figure.

As we've seen in AFFC, Cersei is NOT intentionally evil. All of her cruel acts are done to protect her and her children. Yes, she goes off the extreme in some cases, but who wouldn't be?

Tyrion the Valonqar. Jaime the betrayer. Tywin dead. Joffrey dead. Enemies everywhere.

That's my argument.

SerBarristantheOld

I've heard it whispered that there exists within these forums a small group of members who might be able to lend aid to your cause. They may appear in certain threads when certain conditions occur...conditions very similar to this one, I believe. I've heard they believe in a central tenant: No Character is Meaningless. That they aim to seek out the reasons and messages of certain story lines, never accepting character villainy as villainy for it's own sake. I've heard they are but a small band. And that they speak sometimes infrequently, sometimes too forcefully - as their cause is one often subject to intense pressures and misunderstanding. But they are there. (They may even totally wish they could call themselves The League of MetaCerseistans. But this last part is almost certainly just a tale told to scare wee babes in winter.)

[Hajk]

Losing father and son makes for interesting character development. But the prophecy trivialises it. Cersei has all sorts of interesting reasons for disliking Tyrion, in comparison to which the prophecy simply makes all her actions one-dimensional.

Martin has wrecked Cersei as a believable character. He turned her into a parody, and then encouraged the reader to laugh at/hate her.

The prophecy actually makes some of her fears more comprehensible.

[complexphoenix]

And attacking Cersei's sex life strikes me as more than a tad sexist. Cersei has slept with four men (Jaime, Robert, Lancel, and Kettleblack), and one woman (Lady Merryweather). If you consider sleeping around morally negative (I don't), she's done far less than the likes of Tyrion, let alone Robert.

I don't consider sleeping around a bad thing in itself, but Cersei is the Queen of Westeros. She has a legal, institutional and ethical obligation to be faithful to her royal husband and bear him trueborn heirs, because that is what a queen is for. She wants to enjoy the privileges of being Queen without the responsibilities. Not to mention, it's treason of the highest order to pass off her lover's bastards as her husband's heirs, and it leads to a war that destroys thousands of lives.

She also uses her sexuality to manipulate Lancel and Jaime in ways that they don't deserve. It's not that she has sex that's the problem, but the way she does it, her reasons for doing so, and the enormous negative consequences that she should have seen coming but didn't care about, because she's too selfish to put the law and the good of the realm ahead of her own pleasure.

[Hajk]

I do agree she's been their only parental figure, and she does seem to treat them well, as long as they listen to her completely. The minute Tommen exerts some self agency she forces him to whip his whipping boy. So while she does love them, her love is limited by her own psychological conditions. She's a narcissist, and a lot of her love is conditional, this applies to everyone, not just her kids. She loves Jaime as long as he behaves and looks the way she wants him to. She loves her children, but their own agency clouds that.

I think one thing is consistently ignored here. Tommen is not exerting agency, he is turning into a Tyrell puppet. Cersei has very legitimate fears in this direction (they did kill off her first son, even if she doesn't fully know that).

[Dany Girl]

Losing father and son makes for interesting character development. But the prophecy trivialises it. Cersei has all sorts of interesting reasons for disliking Tyrion, in comparison to which the prophecy simply makes all her actions one-dimensional.

Martin has wrecked Cersei as a believable character. He turned her into a parody, and then encouraged the reader to laugh at/hate her.

I completely agree. I hate the prophesy, especially since it comes out of left field. For example when Tyrion first arrived in KL Myrcella and Tommen run to him and greet him, clearly they love him. If Cersei has always had this prophesy do you think she'd allow her children to get close to the man she believes will kill her and possibly them? I don't think so. She also tolerates Tyrion enough to allow him to travel north with her family. I don't think these are the actions of a person afraid of someone. I think the introduction of the prophesy as some long standing thing just feels a bit sloppy to me. I feel like she should have received the prophesy later, maybe shortly before the PW or even shorty after. At least then it would make sense.

[Kasporio]

The prophecy actually makes some of her fears more comprehensible.

Cersei has her own way about the prophecy. Melara told her if nobody else heard about the prophecy it wont happen.

Well Mel finished in a well.

When she was able to frame Tyrion and have him executed she didnt relentid. Then tried with Margaery.