LGBTQI Thread - An Ode to Lesbians

[Sophelia]

If you're suggesting using genderqueer as an umbrella in the way that trans* is currently used, it strikes me that it's significantly less descriptive of Robin. The modern 'queer' refers to sexuality, gender, or expression that is by nature or by intent outside the normal conceptions of such. That doesn't mean different from cis/het; it means different from the binary concepts of straight/gay/man/woman. Robin is emphatically and explicitly within that binary.

If you're suggesting using genderqueer as an umbrella because, by its definition, it specifically avoids including Robin (who doesn't want to be included), that's better but the effect of that basically backs into a kind of reverse HBS separatism that pretends there's something hugely, categorically different between me and Robin when it is more likely just that my 'felt' gender identity is less intense. Which is exactly my problem with a lot of the stuff Robin says.

Personally I'm not entirely happy with sharing an umbrella with Wurst either. (For those of us joining late, I identify as transfeminine genderqueer.) I don't see any "solutions" though; I think it's just the nature of the beast that when you get enough different people under one roof, some of them won't be entirely happy with others. As far as politics and shared experiences, I recognize that I do have a lot in common with drag and genderfuck, especially politically; the fact that I personally find them off-putting and (in the case of drag) slightly insulting doesn't erase that.

This is very interesting and thought-provoking. Yes, Robin doesn't seem to fit the label of 'genderqueer' (hello Robin!): she is more woman than I am! Indeed much of the reason I am so interested in transgender people and try to keep up with these threads is that identifying strongly with one gender or the other is so alien to me, that I really feel I need to try and understand more how it feels. I am learning a lot and changing my views post by post, thanks to the posters here and in other threads over the years.

Conchita Wurst would only fall under genderqueer if he/she actually feels not-male in real-life, which we don't know for certain. The act is portraying someone genderqueer, though, and an appearance which is a male/female combo seems to be accepted, at least on stage, and the person behind it is taken seriously and generates affection (as a singer and as a person), which is hopefully good for genderqueer people (I wouldn't call it exactly 'drag' though I suppose it's not that much different physically from men playing the ugly sisters in the cinderella story, where their manly characteristics are used deliberately to represent an ugly woman).

[Robin Of House Hill]

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion, that between umbrella terms and the penchant of people to redesign words because it is convenient for them to do so, I am left with trying to to come up with a single word that describes a binary identified post-surgical MtF transsexual lesbian woman.

Thanks. (And I'll keep an eye on sex and gender - I used to be quite clear on the distinction but not so much now!)

Yeah, there's a lot of that going around, these days. :)

[protar]

Well yes, all these acts have made a conscious effort to dress up and present themselves in certain ways, and I doubt any of them go out to the shops dressed like that. The act of putting in mascara is not less deliberate than the decision whether to shave or not: the only difference here is that Conchita Wurst has chosen not to deliberately accentuate either male or female characteristics, but to deliberately a mixture of both (though mainly female, to balance being biologically male).

:lol: A beard is about as organic as you can get!

I know that obviously they are making a conscious decision when it comes to every aspect of there appearance. I simply meant that sporting the beard is a lot more overt and noticeable than just being completely feminine in appearance. And there isn't anything wrong with that, I'm just hoping that that is simply how she likes to be rather than a calculated moved to garner more attention. Because you know...it's eurovision. Maybe I'm just being cynical. If she wants a beard I've got nothing against that I'd just like to clarify.

[protar]

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion, that between umbrella terms and the penchant of people to redesign words because it is convenient for them to do so, I am left with trying to to come up with a single word that describes a binary identified post-surgical MtF transsexual lesbian woman.

But again, why does there need to be one word for your specific identity, or for anyone's specific identity? What is so bad about using a broader term and then simply explaining further for those who are interested? The only negative I can see is that someone might confuse one variety of Trans* with another. But honestly, if someone mistakes you for something else because of an umbrella term all you need do is clarify for them. If they are reasonable they'll understand and if not, well they aren't worth the time.

[emberling]

Well, the HBSers came up with a descriptor for a binary identified post-surgical MtF transsexual straight woman, so there's precedent.

Whether it is desirable to follow the precedent of HBSers is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Robin Of House Hill]

But again, why does there need to be one word for your specific identity, or for anyone's specific identity? What is so bad about using a broader term and then simply explaining further for those who are interested? The only negative I can see is that someone might confuse one variety of Trans* with another. But honestly, if someone mistakes you for something else because of an umbrella term all you need do is clarify for them. If they are reasonable they'll understand and if not, well they aren't worth the time.

So if someone falsely assumes something about me on the basis of that umbrella term, says nothing to let me know, yet interacts with me on the basis of that false asumption, how does that benefit anyone?

Well, the HBSers came up with a descriptor for a binary identified post-surgical MtF transsexual straight woman, so there's precedent.

Whether it is desirable to follow the precedent of HBSers is left as an exercise for the reader.

I'm not at war with Harry Benjamin.

[protar]

So if someone falsely assumes something about me on the basis of that umbrella term, says nothing to let me know, yet interacts with me on the basis of that false asumption, how does that benefit anyone?

True enough I suppose. Though I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't be using more specific terms if you so choose, but there's nothing wrong with umbrella terms either imo.

[brook]

There is no single word that describes any of us. And people make assumptions all the time.

When I say I'm a woman, when I say I'm cis, if I say I'm bisexual, Australian, a feminist, a mother, a student...

Each of those words carries assumptions, some which I'm comfortable with, some I'm not.

Surely it's up to me to clarify further when it's relevant rather than claim that everyone not exactly like me is not covered by any of those terms?

[Robin Of House Hill]

Brook,

You are, of course, right. There is no single word that covers it all. I'd just like to have one that has a bit of clarity.

Back in the 70s and 80s, it was much simpler. News articles about transsexuals that reached the public's attention, such as those about Renee Richards, invariably contained the following information. We were under a considerable amount of medical supervision, our goals were simply to live our lives without attracting attention and there was always a reference to surgery. The result was that the public perceived us as a rare occurrence, subject to stringent protocols, medically supervised and willing to undergo huge medical costs, the pain and risk of surgery to become rather ordinary members of society. They never even got to consider that we needed to spend a minimum of a year, pre-op, or if they did, regarded it as a temporary situation. And above all, we didn't wave our existence in their face every chance we got.

The changes that have occurred in the past 36 years that I wasn't even aware of until last year, are to me, the most frightening I can imagine. That is why I want to avoid as much ambiguity as possible. If I am ever put in the situation where I have no choice but to reveal my background, in real life, I don't want any misunderstanding.

[karaddin]

I would have thought that even in the past with the supposed greater clarity of the term, it still would have had inaccuracies as there were assumptions made about those transitioning wishing to be straight women.

For me the whole Wurst thing hinges on information I don't have - whether it's a genuine expression of part of their identity or just a performance. If it's the latter I find the beard problematic and exploitative. The general population absolutely conflates trans and drag and the drag community feels entitled to use anti transsexual slurs because of this conflation, so I feel inauthentic performance so blatantly blurring the lines has the potential to harm us.

I actually think that at the point we are, articles/portrayals etc that appear to be positive while endorsing negative practices are more harmful than outright hate pieces. Someone sympathetic but ignorant can take this sort of thing on board where they would recognise and reject bigotry. There was a perfect example of this in an Australian paper last week I'll try dig up, but the concern I had around Dallas Buyers Club fell into the same category.

[Robin Of House Hill]

To be honest, there were problems back then. The medical establishment thought we'd all be straight women. But, we all knew that some weren't. Even my own endocrinologist, who I was still seeing, post-op, was surprised when I mentioned I was becoming more convinced that I was a lesbian. His response was, "Robin, you went through all that, to be with a woman"? I had to explain to him that what I was and what I preferred, were unrelated.

Back then, things were clearer, though, because no one spoke of non-binary, gender-fluid or even transgender. That term wasn't used, so no one thought there might be people who wouldn't have SRS. I honestly do not know what happened to people back then who experienced gender dysphoria, but did not want surgery.

It may sound facetious, but I worry that someone isn't going to start saying, "we aren't defined by our facial hair". If that happens, I'll become a hermit.

[emberling]

For me the whole Wurst thing hinges on information I don't have - whether it's a genuine expression of part of their identity or just a performance. If it's the latter I find the beard problematic and exploitative. The general population absolutely conflates trans and drag and the drag community feels entitled to use anti transsexual slurs because of this conflation, so I feel inauthentic performance so blatantly blurring the lines has the potential to harm us.

I agree with the bolded - it has that potential. But I'm not sure that's enough reason to protest it. I'd rather draw the line here: if it's a performance motivated by profit, shock value, notoriety then it's problematic; if it's a performance based in feminism that's meant to help challenge the gender binary, then I see it as legitimate, at least in category. Though binary transfolk aren't the ones who'd benefit, and might receive some collateral damage.

From the little I know about Wurst and Eurovision, I'd guess that Wurst's motivation isn't feminism. But Wurst isn't the only person performing genderfuck out there, and I don't want to condemn broadly.

It may sound facetious, but I worry that someone isn't going to start saying, "we aren't defined by our facial hair".

Hey, if I could make laser work faster I would. Shit's gotta grow out first.

:(

[brook]

Robin I guess it's strange how we can look at the same things and see something so different.

In the 70's, 80's, 90's hell even now there is one transsexual woman that the majority of Australians would be able to name (and I believe MOST would consider her an accurate representation of all trans women) and that is Carlotta. The character of Bernadette in Priscilla is based on Carlotta and the biggest change there is they made Bernadette less over the top and more 'ordinary'.

So the public perception, here, of most trans women has been of performers, heavily associated with drag, straight women and generally highly sexual etc

What we see now, as more trans women become open is a slow change to acceptance that the vast majority of trans women are simply just trying to live their lives in all the variety of ways that cis women do.

I cannot see that as other than progress.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Emberling,

Laser? You got it so easy. :P

BTW, if it is a performance that is genuine and intended to challenge the gender binary, I still see it as a threat. If it is a threat, I'm obligated to condemn it.

Brook,

Maybe my perceptions are based on the fact that all of the trans women I knew back then, hated drag. If was something we probably didn't even want to think about. But, I suspect most of the general public didn't, either.

[emberling]

Laser? You got it so easy. :P

It may be cheaper and less time in the torture chair, but I've still got to wait months before I can appear in public without some marker or another of someone else's gender clinging to my face. That's still no fun. :P

Especially since the boob fairy came three months ahead of schedule. I'm afraid I might end up forced into a Conchita kind of situation. :uhoh:

BTW, if it is a performance that is genuine and intended to challenge the gender binary, I still see it as a threat. If it is a threat, I'm obligated to condemn it.

Of you, I expect no less. :)

Maybe my perceptions are based on the fact that all of the trans women I knew back then, hated drag. If was something we probably didn't even want to think about. But, I suspect most of the general public didn't, either.

Did I mention recently that I also hate drag? Just making sure that's out there. It's true, we can agree on something!

Though I see my hatred of drag as a character flaw, so maybe not... :P

[karaddin]

Laser is awesome, I can handle the pain from it where I think I'd really struggle with electrolysis. Just wish it would all go and stay gone, my upper lip starts coming back after about 3 months (not much mind you, but enough to need another zap to get rid of it again). Legs are a different story though, virtually no hair left there after only 6 rounds!

[brook]

Brook,

Maybe my perceptions are based on the fact that all of the trans women I knew back then, hated drag. If was something we probably didn't even want to think about. But, I suspect most of the general public didn't, either.

My point wasn't that this is a desirable representation but simply that, up until very recently, that HAD been the dominate view the general public have of trans people.

Em, my best friend is at roughly the same stage in her transition as you are and, being half-Italian laser has been slow going for her.

Last time I saw her though things seem to have finally reached a tipping point that things are looking much better on that front so hopefully it works the same for you!

ETA - found the link I was reading last night. This is the basis for my saying that, no matter what the motivations of the performance Wurst is not trans.

http://wiwibloggs.com/2014/04/06/conchita-wurst-transgender/45930/#

[Robin Of House Hill]

It may be cheaper and less time in the torture chair, but I've still got to wait months before I can appear in public without some marker or another of someone else's gender clinging to my face. That's still no fun. :P

Especially since the boob fairy came three months ahead of schedule. I'm afraid I might end up forced into a Conchita kind of situation. :uhoh:

Of you, I expect no less. :)

Did I mention recently that I also hate drag? Just making sure that's out there. It's true, we can agree on something!

Though I see my hatred of drag as a character flaw, so maybe not... :P

Probably, we do agree, shocking as that may be. My view of drag is similar to a TERF's view of trans. I also view drag as the ultimate expression of male privilege.

Laser is awesome, I can handle the pain from it where I think I'd really struggle with electrolysis. Just wish it would all go and stay gone, my upper lip starts coming back after about 3 months (not much mind you, but enough to need another zap to get rid of it again). Legs are a different story though, virtually no hair left there after only 6 rounds!

Trust me. You don't want to even think of electrolysis. It really hurt. Back then, laser was just getting started and wasn't as effective.

My point wasn't that this is a desirable representation but simply that, up until very recently, that HAD been the dominate view the general public have of trans people.

Em, my best friend is at roughly the same stage in her transition as you are and, being half-Italian laser has been slow going for her.

Last time I saw her though things seem to have finally reached a tipping point that things are looking much better on that front so hopefully it works the same for you!

ETA - found the link I was reading last night. This is the basis for my saying that, no matter what the motivations of the performance Wurst is not trans.

http://wiwibloggs.com/2014/04/06/conchita-wurst-transgender/45930/#

And my point was that I wondered if the fact that I only hung out with people who hated drag, might have altered my view of public perception.

I'm surprised today's conversation seems to have avoided bloodshed. If I'd extolled the virtue of 1978 protocols on Twitter or Facebook, there are people there that would have ripped my head off and played soccer with it. Sad, but I've learned to deal with cis people a hell of a lot better than I do with trans people.

[protar]

Having just seen an LGBT based thread in another forum devolve into flaming and bigotry within three posts, I was just reminded of what a great thread this is and what a great community this forum is in general that it can have a continually running LGBT thread that remains completely cordial at all times. So thanks everyone, I do wish I could contribute more. :)