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Mithras

Lannisters and Plumms

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What is GRRM building up with this?




"And Ossifer Plumm was much too dead, but that did not stop him fathering a child, did it?"




It is almost certain that Ossifer Plumm was married to Eleana Targaryen and after Ossifer's death, Eleana conceived a child from her secret lover. Eleana passed this child as the legitimate child of Ossifer, which made Ossifer fathering a child with his 6 ft. cock from his grave. This we learn from Cersei. She feared that the Tyrells might kill Tommen, make Margaery pregnant from whoever they like and pass the child as the heir to the IT. Her paranoia was not completely baseless.




“I see you wonder, what sort of name is that?” the man had cackled when Jaime went to question him. “It is an old name, ’tis true. I am not one to boast, but there is royal blood in my veins. I am descended from a princess. My father told me the tale when I was a tad of a lad.” Longwaters had not been a tad of a lad for many a year, to judge from his spotted head and the white hairs growing from his chin. “She was the fairest treasure of the Maidenvault. Lord Oakenfist the great admiral lost his heart to her, though he was married to another. She gave their son the bastard name of ‘Waters’ in honor of his father, and he grew to be a great knight, as did his own son, who put the ‘Long’ before the ‘Waters’ so men might know that he was not basely born himself. So I have a little dragon in me.”


“Yes, I almost mistook you for Aegon the Conqueror,” Jaime had answered.




This we learn from Jaime. The gaoler assumes to be a descendant of Longwaters. Jon Waters was the acknowledged bastard son of Eleana Targaryen and Alyn Velaryon. He grew up to be a famous knight. Because of the noble blood of his parents, he changed his surname as Longwaters.




“I know you as well, my lord,” said Tyrion. “You’re less purple and more brown than the Plumms at home, but unless your name’s a lie, you’re a westerman, by blood if not by birth. House Plumm is sworn to Casterly Rock, and as it happens I know a bit of its history. Your branch sprouted from a stone spit across the narrow sea, no doubt. A younger son of Viserys Plumm, I’d wager. The queen’s dragons were fond of you, were they not?”


That seemed to amuse the sellsword. “Who told you that?”


“No one. Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes … nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. Not only do I know that the queen’s dragons took to you, but I know why.”


“My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood.”


“Two drops. That, or a cock six feet long. You know that tale? I do."




Tyrion didn’t recite everything he knew but we can deduce a great deal from here. The last (and probably the only) child of Ossifer and Eleana was in fact fathered by a person with Targaryen blood, hence the two drops of dragon blood. I think Viserys Plumm is that child. He has an obvious Targaryen name. Probably he was named after Viserys II Targaryen, who saved Eleana from captivity in Maidensvault. Apple Martini made a conclusion why Viserys should be the son of Eleana like this:




Viserys Plumm was the Plumm lord during Aerys I's reign. We know Ossifer was at one time the lord and supposedly fathered a child after his death, the implication being that his wife passed off her lover's child as his to get control of the land. We know Ossifer married a Targaryen princess and lived during the reign of one of the Aegons. Aegon I is possible, but we don't know how many daughters he had or anything about which families they married into, or why he'd have any of them marry into the Plumms. Aegon II ruled for only a couple of years and there's zero mention of any Targ ladies marrying a Plumm in tPatQ, and the only Targaryen princesses there were during Aegon III's reign were his daughters. Daena was married to Baelor, Rhaena never married and Elaena married three times but was very young during her father's reign. Brown Ben Plumm says he got the story from his grandmother; the Plumm is described as "old," meaning, it's highly likely that Plumm's grandmother used the word old, making Aegon V probably too recent. That leaves Aegon IV, and again, the only available Targaryen princess at that time who could have been married to Ossifer is Elaena. Rhaena became a septa, Naerys was married to Aegon IV, Daenerys was born later in Aegon IV's reign and Daena raised Daemon Blackfyre alone, meaning, she stayed unmarried after Baelor died.



So if Ossifer married Elaena during the reign of Aegon IV, and Viserys was the Plumm lord during the reign of Aerys I, it follows that Viserys Plumm must be her son, i.e. Elaena's son with whoever fathered him, perhaps Aegon IV himself.



It's not a "given," it's working backward and using various clues and hints and bits of the timeline to put it together.




The SSM about Eleana Targaryen is this:




ELAENA TARGARYEN



Princess Elaena was only eleven when locked away in the Maidenvault. At that age she was a skinny thing, the runt of the litter, but she had more than a little of her sister Daena's wilfullness even then, as she would prove when she grew older. She liked to dress in black as a girl, because her big sister Daena had done it. Her eyes were a soft lilac, her mouth thin-lipped and often angry. Her hair was a platinum white with a bright golden streak down the middle, an unusual color even for the Targaryens. She wore it long, pulled back, and braided, and was always being told it was her crowning beauty.



When Baelor the Blessed confined his sisters to the Maidenvault, he said it was because they were so beautiful that just seeing them would tempt the men of his court to sin. Elaena hated the imprisonment, so she cut her braid off and sent it to her brother, hoping that if she rid herself of her beauty her brother might let her out. (He didn't). For years after, however, Princess Elaena wore her hair short. Elaena's most cherished possession was a dragon's egg whose stony shell showed the same colors as her hair.



Elaena lived a much longer life than her sister Daena, and a much more tumultuous one than her sister Rhaena. The great love of her life was her cousin, Alyn Velaryon, the seafarer and admiral known as Oakenfist, to whom she bore a bastard son and daughter, Jon and Jeyne Waters. She married thrice in later years, twice at a king's behest and once for passion. She gave birth to seven children, then declared that if seven was sufficient for the gods it would do for her as well.



Never regarded as a great beauty like her sisters, Elaena proved to be one of those women whose features improve with age, and men said she was more beautiful at seventy than she had been at seventeen. She was shrewd and intelligent as well, especially with money. Though her second husband sat on the king's small council as master of coin, it was widely known that it was Elaena who actually performed all the duties of the office.



All that lies in her future, though. When sent to the Maidenvault, she was only a girl of eleven, awkward and angular, shy and charming by turns.




Eleana adored Daena. She dressed like her elder sister and acted like her elder sister. Even Daena dared not to become pregnant with a bastard during Baelor's reign. The Wiki says Baelor I died in 171 and Daemon was born in 170. I am not comfortable with this because it would be high treason. Do Targaryen princesses have the privilege of getting paramours and giving birth to bastards? Or was Daena a special case?



Where I wanted to get is that after Daena gave birth to a bastard, I can see Eleana desiring to do the same and giving birth to Jon and Jeyne. If that is the case, Daemon must be older than Jon and Jeyne, which means Alyn Velaryon was closer to his 60s when he fathered them. Was that the "cover" for marrying Eleana to Ossifer? Eleana showed that she was capable of having children from an old man like Alyn. If Ossifer was old and heirless, that would be a good match between him and Eleana with a proven fertility, which worked almost the same way for Jon Arryn and Lysa. After Ossifer's death, Eleana was married again on king's behest and her husband was the Master of Coin. Who could be the Master of Coin willingly marrying the widow Targaryen princess of a Lord from Westerlands with 2 bastards and 1 "legitimate" son? I think Damon Lannister is a good candidate and here is why I think like this:



During the Blackfyre Rebellion, Ser Quentyn Ball (Fireball) killed Lord Lefford at Lannisport and sent Lord Damon Lannister back to Casterly Rock when he came out to confront him. Daena loved her little sister well. I think Daemon (and his general Fireball) did not want to make his beloved aunt a widow again, so they spared Damon.



We have something like this:



1. Alyn “Oakenfist” Velaryon: Her greatest love affair. He was 35 years older than Eleana (even older than her father). He fathered two bastards from her, namely Jon and Jeyne Waters.



2. Ossifer Plumm: He was an old man without an heir, so he married Eleana at king’s behest. This was the first duty marriage of Eleana. He “fathered” Viserys Plumm from Eleana. Of course the real father of Viserys was either Alyn Velaryon or Aegon IV. I personally prefer the latter.



3. Damon “The Grey Lion” Lannister: This was the second duty marriage of Eleana. Damon Lannister was the Master of Coin but Eleana was the one performing the duties. That is very similar to how Tywin ruled the Realm as the Hand of Aerys but was ruled by Joanna at home. He fathered at least Tybolt and Gerold Lannister from her.



4. Unknown Husband: Eleana married with him for passion. She was old but even more beautiful in her later years. She gave birth to seven children, which means she made her remaining two children from her last husband. But that can change if she made other children with Damon.



I think there is a reason why GRRM gives the Plumm history through Lannister siblings. I think a daughter of Viserys Plumm was married to Tytos Lannister. They were first cousins but their fathers were step brothers actually. Thinking about it, the Lannisters do have a good deal of Targaryen blood.



Tybolt was 1/2 Targ.


Tytos was 1/4 Targ. He married the daughter of Viserys Plumm, which makes her a 1/2 Targ by blood.


Joanna was 1/8 Targ and Tywin was 3/8 Targ.


Therefore, the Lannister siblings are 1/4 Targs. By blood, they are equal to Robert but of course their "official" amount of Targ blood is less because Viserys Plumm is technically the son of Ossifer Plumm.



TWOIAF will tell us whether this theory is true or not within 6 months. According to Ran, a recent Surprising Lannister Ancestor will be revealed in TWOIAF.


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Can we say the following:

Jaime does not know jackshit about Ossifer Plumm that is why he shows the least amount of Targ symptoms.

Cersei knows a deal more than Jaime, so she shows more Targ symptoms than him (fascination with wildfire etc.)

Tyrion knows hell lot of things about those drops of dragonblood, so he shows the greatest amount of Targ symptoms among his siblings.

I dunno about this. But I like the theory in the OP. I like it a lot.

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Is it actually confirmed that Alyn of Hull and Elaena's Alyn are the same guy? Because Elaena wasn't born until 150 AL and Alyn of Hull was already a teenager in 129-ish AL. He'd have been already in his mid-30s before she was even born. And Oakenfist was an admiral in Daeron I's navy, after Aegon III was already dead and Daeron was a teenager. I'm thinking that Oakenfist is either the first Alyn's son or some other kin of his.

We know Elaena's mother was a Velaryon of some sort, it's just not clear how she was related to the ones we already know about.

The Wiki seems to think they're the same guy, but the conclusion seems based on, "His name was Alyn and so was his, must be the same guy."

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Is it actually confirmed that Alyn of Hull and Elaena's Alyn are the same guy? Because Elaena wasn't born until 150 AL and Alyn of H"ull was already a teenager in 129-ish AL. He'd have been already in his mid-30s before she was even born. And Oakenfist was an admiral in Daeron I's navy, after Aegon III was already dead and Daeron was a teenager. I'm thinking that Oakenfist is either the first Alyn's son or some other kin of his.

We know Elaena's mother was a Velaryon of some sort, it's just not clear how she was related to the ones we already know about.

The Wiki seems to think they're the same guy, but the conclusion seems based on, "His name was Alyn and so was his, must be the same guy."

I think ran said it was the same guy in the princess and the queen thread.

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Fair enough. That just makes it all that much squickier.

Funny thing is I don't think Alyn "Oakenfist" is the father of the Plumm child. I get the impression that Ossifer was Elaena's third marriage (two for duty, one for passion) and Viserys her last child. In order for BBP's history to work out correctly, Viserys would be his great grandfather. To estimate Viserys' birth year take BBP's birth year plus 60-65 years. If we place BBP in middle age (40-60), for argument's sake he would have a birth range between 240 and 260. In the middle of that range, his great gf could have been born c.185, or when Elaena was 35. Alyn "Oakenfist" has an approximate birth year of 115 ... while technically he could have pulled a Walder Frey and be fathering children in his dotage, I find it more likely that he had passed on by this time since Elaena's third marriage was evidently "for passion" Why would she marry for passion if the great love of her life was still alive? I think the most likely candidate for Viserys Plumm's father is Aegon IV, with outside odds on Daemon Blackfyre if you use the later end of the range (move Viserys' birth year up 5 years and Daemon is 20, Elaena 40. Def possible)

As for the OP, I like that as an explanation for Targ characteristics in Lannisters much better than A+J. Having an actual Targ as the father of VP (rather than a Velaryon) makes it a better fit too, imo. The only thing I'd add is that in my scenario Tybolt and Viserys would be contemporaries, so maybe more likely that Tybolt's son married a Plumm girl?

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Most likely not. If you look at Alyn Oakenfists age he must have been Elaene's first lover and they had two children together. Oakenfist during that time was a real power, seeing that he commanded Daeron I navy in Dorne.



So, a relationship between the two would have been frowned upon but they would probably have given it a pass. After his death she was married of to the Plumm House (who were overjoyed of getting a Targ bride since they don't appear to be absolute top tier Lannister bannermen).



When he passed Elaene lost her claim to the Plumm lands. We know she was quite the cunning woman, so she probably got some other Targaryen (hint, hint Aegon IV) to knock her up. Then she used the child to claim the Plumm lands and rule them in his name.



The beauty of this is that if there were any discontent Plumm cousins they would never get their inheritance since their appeal would wind up with the father of the child. Aegon IV never acknowledged or legitimized his bastard because that would leave Viserys no claim to the Plumm estate.



I think with the added bonus of controlling the Plumms land Elaene married upwards to a Lord a bit higher on the ladder who would later become the Master of Coin (a very controllable guy it seems). After he passed away she had only one marriage left and that's the one out of passion.


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If Ossifer was an old man without an heir like Jon Arryn, that one can be a duty marriage. I think Eleana get the bastards Jon and Jeyne first because Alyn was even older than her father. After the bastards grew up a little, the king (I am not sure which one but maybe UnWorthy) made her marry Ossifer who was an old man without an heir if I am right. That way Aegon wanted to make his own bastard and pass him as a Plumm to claim the Plumm lands. I dont know if he was the father of Viserys (whom I think as the "son" of Ossifer) but the funny thing is Aegon himself was deceived exactly the same. I believe Daeron II was the son of Aemon.



ETA: I think Viserys Plumm must be named after Viserys II and possibly he was born during his reign which ended in 172.


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Correct me if I'm wrong but which Targaryen father is less important than whether his granddaughter married the Lord of Casterly Rock, no?

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ETA: I think Viserys Plumm must be named after Viserys II and possibly he was born during his reign which ended in 172.

I think he was named for Viserys as well, although it could easily have been a posthumous homage. My theory is that Elaena was grateful to her uncle for "freeing" her from the Maidenvault ... if the Plumm child was born prior to 172, then Viserys II could have been the father, no?

Correct me if I'm wrong but which Targaryen father is less important than whether his granddaughter married the Lord of Casterly Rock, no?

Probably not to this theory. I think it being a Targ and not a Velaryon (which isn't the same thing necessarily: Alyn was a couple generations removed from that if we've guessed his parentage correctly) might be the key.

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Where is it given that Viserys Plumm was Elaena's son?



I thought Maynard Plumm could be related to Elaena, maybe he is her son. (Maynard Plumm has very Targ like features) - And his presence at Whitewalls did not raise suspicion.


And I also think Aegon IV is the father of Elaena's Plumm son.


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Where is it given that Viserys Plumm was Elaena's son?

I thought Maynard Plumm could be related to Elaena, maybe he is her son. (Maynard Plumm has very Targ like features) - And his presence at Whitewalls did not raise suspicion.

And I also think Aegon IV is the father of Elaena's Plumm son.

Maynard Plumm is Bloodraven. His presence at Whitewalls did not raise suspicion because Maynard Plumm is Bloodraven. It's a persona/glamor/disguise of Bloodraven.

Viserys Plumm was the Plumm lord during Aerys I's reign. We know Ossifer was at one time the lord and supposedly fathered a child after his death, the implication being that his wife passed off her lover's child as his to get control of the land. We know Ossifer married a Targaryen princess and lived during the reign of one of the Aegons. Aegon I is possible, but we don't know how many daughters he had or anything about which families they married into, or why he'd have any of them marry into the Plumms. Aegon II ruled for only a couple of years and there's zero mention of any Targ ladies marrying a Plumm in tPatQ, and the only Targaryen princesses there were during Aegon III's reign were his daughters. Daena was married to Baelor, Rhaena never married and Elaena married three times but was very young during her father's reign. Brown Ben Plumm says he got the story from his grandmother; the Plumm is described as "old," meaning, it's highly likely that Plumm's grandmother used the word old, making Aegon V probably too recent. That leaves Aegon IV, and again, the only available Targaryen princess at that time who could have been married to Ossifer is Elaena. Rhaena became a septa, Naerys was married to Aegon IV, Daenerys was born later in Aegon IV's reign and Daena raised Daemon Blackfyre alone, meaning, she stayed unmarried after Baelor died.

So if Ossifer married Elaena during the reign of Aegon IV, and Viserys was the Plumm lord during the reign of Aerys I, it follows that Viserys Plumm must be her son, i.e. Elaena's son with whoever fathered him, perhaps Aegon IV himself.

It's not a "given," it's working backward and using various clues and hints and bits of the timeline to put it together.

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Maynard Plumm is Bloodraven. His presence at Whitewalls did not raise suspicion because Maynard Plumm is Bloodraven. It's a persona/glamor/disguise of Bloodraven.

Viserys Plumm was the Plumm lord during Aerys I's reign. We know Ossifer was at one time the lord and supposedly fathered a child after his death, the implication being that his wife passed off her lover's child as his to get control of the land. We know Ossifer married a Targaryen princess and lived during the reign of one of the Aegons. Aegon I is possible, but we don't know how many daughters he had or anything about which families they married into, or why he'd have any of them marry into the Plumms. Aegon II ruled for only a couple of years and there's zero mention of any Targ ladies marrying a Plumm in tPatQ, and the only Targaryen princesses there were during Aegon III's reign were his daughters. Daena was married to Baelor, Rhaena never married and Elaena married three times but was very young during her father's reign. By the time Aegon V became king, the family had largely been wiped out due to the Spring Sickness, and Aegon's two sisters were likely already married. We know his daughter married Steffon Baratheon. That leaves Aegon IV, and again, the only available Targaryen princess at that time who could have been married to Ossifer is Elaena. Rhaena became a septa, Naerys was married to Aegon IV, Daenerys was born later in Aegon IV's reign and Daena raised Daemon Blackfyre alone, meaning, she stayed unmarried after Baelor died.

So if Ossifer married Elaena during the reign of Aegon IV, and Viserys was the Plumm lord during the reign of Aerys I, it follows that Viserys Plumm must be her son, i.e. Elaena's son with whover fathered him, perhaps Aegon IV himself.

It's not a "given," it's working backward and using various clues and hints and bits of the timeline to put it together.

I know that Bloodraven was glamoring himself as Maynard Plumm. Which makes me believe there was a REAL Maynard Plumm, Bloodraven had captured. By glamoring himself as Maynard Plumm, Bloodraven could enter Whitewalls without raising suspicion.

I think those who were invited to the Tourney were Blackfyre supporters. A random Plumm walking in would definitely cause some suspicion.

I don't think Elaena would ever name her son Viserys - after the Uncle who is rumored to have poisoned her brother. I think the branch of Plumms related to Viserys PLumm were pro Targaryen, and they always suspected Elaena's son was not truly a Plumm.

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I know that Bloodraven was glamoring himself as Maynard Plumm. Which makes me believe there was a REAL Maynard Plumm, Bloodraven had captured. By glamoring himself as Maynard Plumm, Bloodraven could enter Whitewalls without raising suspicion.

I think those who were invited to the Tourney were Blackfyre supporters. A random Plumm walking in would definitely cause some suspicion.

I don't think Elaena would ever name her son Viserys - after the Uncle who is rumored to have poisoned her brother. I think the branch of Plumms related to Viserys PLumm were pro Targaryen, and they always suspected Elaena's son was not truly a Plumm.

Or there is no Maynard Plumm and Bloodraven is using a recognizable but ultimately minor surname, passing himself off as some nobody cousin. We also don't know for how long Bloodraven has been using the Maynard Plumm disguise; it might be decades. In which case, even if there was really never a Maynard Plumm, Bloodraven's guise has been around long enough that nobody really thinks about it anymore.

Why would Elaena hold anything against the guy who ultimately got her out of the Maidenvault? She had no cause to support Baelor. She might also know that Viserys II was ultimately a good guy and a good Hand and the poisoning rumor is bullshit slander; she's not stupid.

Do you have some explanation of this inter-Plumm rivalry/suspicion, or evidence for it? You asked where the conclusion came from that Viserys was Elaena's son, and I explained it. There were only five Aegons, three of which can be immediately dismissed as possibilities. We know very little about Aegon I's daughters and who they married, which leaves Aegon IV as the best possibility. The only princess available to marry Ossifer Plumm at that time was Elaena.

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"A noble vow. I am Ser Kyle, the Cat of Misty Moor. Under yonder chestnut sits Ser Glendon, ah, Ball. And here you have the good Ser Maynard Plumm."
Egg's ears pricked up at that name. "Plumm ... are you kin to Lord Viserys Plumm, ser?"
"Distantly," confessed Ser Maynard, a tall, thin, stoop—shouldered man with long straight flaxen hair, "though I doubt that His Lordship would admit to it. One might say that he is of the sweet Plumms, whilst I am of the sour." Plumm's cloak was as purple as name, though frayed about the edges and badly dyed. A moonstone brooch big as a hen's egg fastened it at the shoulder. Elsewise he wore dun—colored roughspun and stained brown leather.

I get the impression that there was no real Maynard Plumm. Probably Egg knew Viserys Plumm and his relatives very well, given his distant kinship. Egg sounded like he never heard such a Plumm and BR had to come up with a story. Given the location and the attendants of the wedding, a knight from Westerlands could go easily unnoticed. BR would not expect a person who could confirm there was no Maynard Plumm (like Egg) to be present in the wedding.

By the way, anyone has an idea about these sweet Plumms and the sour? If Aegon IV was the father of Viserys Plumm, that makes him another Great Bastard as well.

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"A noble vow. I am Ser Kyle, the Cat of Misty Moor. Under yonder chestnut sits Ser Glendon, ah, Ball. And here you have the good Ser Maynard Plumm."

Egg's ears pricked up at that name. "Plumm ... are you kin to Lord Viserys Plumm, ser?"

"Distantly," confessed Ser Maynard, a tall, thin, stoop—shouldered man with long straight flaxen hair, "though I doubt that His Lordship would admit to it. One might say that he is of the sweet Plumms, whilst I am of the sour." Plumm's cloak was as purple as name, though frayed about the edges and badly dyed. A moonstone brooch big as a hen's egg fastened it at the shoulder. Elsewise he wore dun—colored roughspun and stained brown leather.

I get the impression that there was no real Maynard Plumm. Probably Egg knew Viserys Plumm and his relatives very well, given his distant kinship. Egg sounded like he never heard such a Plumm and BR had to come up with a story. Given the location and the attendants of the wedding, a knight from Westerlands could go easily unnoticed. BR would not expect a person who could confirm there was no Maynard Plumm (like Egg) to be present in the wedding.

By the way, anyone has an idea about these sweet Plumms and the sour? If Aegon IV was the father of Viserys Plumm, that makes him another Great Bastard as well.

Another interesting point in red. He doubts Viserys would admit to it, because Viserys's genuine reaction would be, "Who the hell is Maynard Plumm?"

He's not lying though; he is distantly related to Viserys. :D

ETA: And Egg could have pricked his ears at hearing the name "Plumm," because he would of course know that Viserys Plumm is his cousin.

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