Lannisters and Plumms

[Mithras]

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[Mithras]

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[Jô Maltese]

Lamprey and Apple Martini, thank you very much. I don't always agree with your theories on this forum, but this is the kind of thread I love reading and this is thanks to your incredibly deep knowledge of the world of ASOIAF.

[Mithras]

Tybolt Lannister was a competent fighter (a man in his early 20s) at the Tourney of Ashford in 209. Tytos Lannister died from a heart attack in 267 and Jaime said he was the third son of his father. He fathered Tywin at 244. So it is highly probable that Tybolt was the father of Tytos.

[Hippocras]

Is there a thread at all on the subject of Victarion and Dragon blood or dragon riding?

I think the theory Tyrion has some Plumm in him is a good one. But I am really not convinced of the Victarion parts of this thread. If Victarion rides any dragon at all it will

1. Mean he has some Targaryen blood. I am sorry but it seems obvious to me that while it is not necessary to be a member of House Targaryen to ride a dragon, it is necessary to have some dragon blood.

2. He will steal Drogon, leaving Dany without a dragon. That is likely the one who is a reincarnation of Drogo, king of a rape and slave culture, and probably the one that kills children. It is the one that fits. Rhaegal's rider will appear later in the story I suspect.

I think Victarion's part of the story will end in Meereen, and while his horn may bind dragons, it will not mean he can ride them once bound, merely imprison them.

[Mithras]

The OP was reworked and waiting TWOIAF to check the validity of the theory :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Eleana adored Daena. She dressed like her elder sister and acted like her elder sister. Even Daena dared not to become pregnant with a bastard during Baelor's reign. The Wiki says Baelor I died in 171 and Daemon was born in 170. I am not comfortable with this because it would be high treason. Do Targaryen princesses have the privilege of getting paramours and giving birth to bastards? Or was Daena a special case?

Daemon was 26 when he died in 196AC. Whether he was 25 turning 26, or 26 turning 27 that year, he would have been born in the reign of Baelor I. I wouldn't call it high treason though. Baelor had his marriage to Daena undone when he ascended the throne. And GRRM has specifically stated that Daena escaped the Maiden Vault several times, and that one such occasion left her pregnant. So while I highly doubt (and you probably with me) that Baelor would have willingly allowed Daena to have her adventures, her pregnancy would not necessarily count as high treason and adultery, since their marriage was undone.

During the Blackfyre Rebellion, Ser Quentyn Ball (Fireball) killed Lord Lefford at Lannisport and sent Lord Damon Lannister back to Casterly Rock when he came out to confront him. Daena loved her little sister well. I think Daemon (and his general Fireball) did not want to make his beloved aunt a widow again, so they spared Damon.

We have something like this:

1. Alyn “Oakenfist” Velaryon: Her greatest love affair. He was 35 years older than Eleana (even older than her father). He fathered two bastards from her, namely Jon and Jeyne Waters.

2. Ossifer Plumm: He was an old man without an heir, so he married Eleana at king’s behest. This was the first duty marriage of Eleana. He “fathered” Viserys Plumm from Eleana. Of course the real father of Viserys was either Alyn Velaryon or Aegon IV. I personally prefer the latter.

3. Damon “The Grey Lion” Lannister: This was the second duty marriage of Eleana. Damon Lannister was the Master of Coin but Eleana was the one performing the duties. That is very similar to how Tywin ruled the Realm as the Hand of Aerys but was ruled by Joanna at home. He fathered at least Tybolt and Gerold Lannister from her.

4. Unknown Husband: Eleana married with him for passion. She was old but even more beautiful in her later years. She gave birth to seven children, which means she made her remaining two children from her last husband. But that can change if she made other children with Damon.

If Damon Lannister was the second marriage out of duty, Elaena most likely would not have minded becoming a widow once more. She did not chose the marriage, and once unmarried, would be capable of doing how she pleased once more.

I think there is a reason why GRRM gives the Plumm history through Lannister siblings. I think a daughter of Viserys Plumm was married to Tytos Lannister. They were first cousins but their fathers were step brothers actually. Thinking about it, the Lannisters do have a good deal of Targaryen blood.

TWOIAF will tell us whether this theory is true or not within 6 months. According to Ran, a recent Surprising Lannister Ancestor will be revealed in TWOIAF.

We learn much history from people who are not related to the people they talk about, so the fact that we learn it from the Lannisters does not have to mean anything.

I am excited to learn who it finally is, this Lannister ancestor. Especially since the surprising ancestor has been stated to have been someone recent.

[Mithras]

Daemon was 26 when he died in 196AC. Whether he was 25 turning 26, or 26 turning 27 that year, he would have been born in the reign of Baelor I. I wouldn't call it high treason though. Baelor had his marriage to Daena undone when he ascended the throne. And GRRM has specifically stated that Daena escaped the Maiden Vault several times, and that one such occasion left her pregnant. So while I highly doubt (and you probably with me) that Baelor would have willingly allowed Daena to have her adventures, her pregnancy would not necessarily count as high treason and adultery, since their marriage was undone.

Are you sure that Baelor’s marriage to Daena was undone? I think Baelor refused to consummate the marriage but he stayed married to her until he died. Though it is possible that after one of early adventures of Daena, Eleana might have done the same and unlike her elder sister, she might have got pregnant for Jon and Jeyne from Alyn, which makes them older than Daemon. She might get away with this but still, a queen “officially” married to the king should not easily give birth to a bastard.

If Damon Lannister was the second marriage out of duty, Elaena most likely would not have minded becoming a widow once more. She did not chose the marriage, and once unmarried, would be capable of doing how she pleased once more.

I don’t think so. First of all, she was probably not involved in the decision of sparing Damon. Cat and Ned married out of duty but we know how they eventually loved each other. Even if it did not happen like this for Damon-Eleana, I don’t think she would not mind to see the father of children be killed in battle (and lose her privilege in the Small Council as the practical Master of Coin). I think it makes more sense to make her two marriages out of duty and finally marrying out of passion at an old age.

We learn much history from people who are not related to the people they talk about, so the fact that we learn it from the Lannisters does not have to mean anything.

But whenever we read something of history, there is usually a dimension related to the person who gives us the tale. And only the three Lannisters talking about the Plumms (except BBP) looks suspicious enough for me.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Are you sure that Baelor’s marriage to Daena was undone? I think Baelor refused to consummate the marriage but he stayed married to her until he died. Though it is possible that after one of early adventures of Daena, Eleana might have done the same and unlike her elder sister, she might have got pregnant for Jon and Jeyne from Alyn, which makes them older than Daemon. She might get away with this but still, a queen “officially” married to the king should not easily give birth to a bastard.

Yes, GRRM said it in the SSM "Three Maidens in the Tower":

The eldest daughter of King Aegon III was sixteen when her brother Baelor ascended the Iron Throne, dissolved his marriage to her (which had been celebrated but never consummated), and confined her and her sisters to their own apartments in the Red Keep, soon known as the Maidenvault.

With the marriage disolved, it would explain why Daena wasn't punished for high treason :)

I agree with you that Elaena most likely got pregnant with Alyn after her release from the Maiden Vault. But most likely very quickly after, otherwise she would have been married off probably. A princess pregnant with another man´s child will most likely be made to wait before being able to wed again.

I don’t think so. First of all, she was probably not involved in the decision of sparing Damon. Cat and Ned married out of duty but we know how they eventually loved each other. Even if it did not happen like this for Damon-Eleana, I don’t think she would not mind to see the father of children be killed in battle (and lose her privilege in the Small Council as the practical Master of Coin). I think it makes more sense to make her two marriages out of duty and finally marrying out of passion at an old age.

I agree with the order of the marriages (the one out of passion as last, the two out of duty first), but I just think that if Elaena was forced to marry Damon, she wouldn't mind it very much if he died, since it was out of duty. The description of Elaena carrying out the duties of Master of Coin doesn't inspire thoughts of love in the marriage, though it might just be that if GRRM had described it differently, I could believe it.

Also, a problem that just occured to me, if Elaena was married to Daemon, she would have been 59 years old when he died (he died in 209AC). That would mean that she would have remarried while being at an age where she cannot conceive any children anymore. Though it was a marriage for love and passion, it does give the possibility, but marriages at ages like these (for the woman) are usually made so the lands can be inherited by the husband (like Lady Hornwood). And Elaena had no lands to give..

But whenever we read something of history, there is usually a dimension related to the person who gives us the tale. And only the three Lannisters talking about the Plumms (except BBP) looks suspicious enough for me.

Well, Jaime wasn't telling the tale, Elaena's descendant was telling the tale. So that leaves 2. And Cersei's tale can be said to have been about the dangers Tommen would be in, a sort of parallel. Tyrion is talking about dragons.

That all three POVs give information about Plumms, and further no one else, might be suspicious enough indeed. But I wouldn't say it's evidence. It might simply be a sign that we need to keep an eye on these Plumms.

[Veltigar]

I just don't get why people still think Eleane married a Lannister. There is no way the Lannisters have Targaryen blood without that getting a mention. Also, the Lannisters are a great house, they would never marry a woman who had some bastards (by a formidable and mighty men) and married into a minor house of the Westerlands before that.

[Mithras]

I agree with the order of the marriages (the one out of passion as last, the two out of duty first), but I just think that if Elaena was forced to marry Damon, she wouldn't mind it very much if he died, since it was out of duty. The description of Elaena carrying out the duties of Master of Coin doesn't inspire thoughts of love in the marriage, though it might just be that if GRRM had described it differently, I could believe it.

Also, a problem that just occured to me, if Elaena was married to Daemon, she would have been 59 years old when he died (he died in 209AC). That would mean that she would have remarried while being at an age where she cannot conceive any children anymore. Though it was a marriage for love and passion, it does give the possibility, but marriages at ages like these (for the woman) are usually made so the lands can be inherited by the husband (like Lady Hornwood). And Elaena had no lands to give..

I agree that she might not have got children from her last marriage. She did have something of value though; the dragon egg we discussed in the other thread. Maybe she gave her to the king and the king granted her lands. Or her dowry was only her egg and surname. After all, she is a legitimate Targaryen princess, not some simple highborn.

I just don't get why people still think Eleane married a Lannister. There is no way the Lannisters have Targaryen blood without that getting a mention. Also, the Lannisters are a great house, they would never marry a woman who had some bastards (by a formidable and mighty men) and married into a minor house of the Westerlands before that.

I think a fertile Targaryen princess is very desirable even if she has bastards or legitimate children. Also this:

Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.”

“You had the better claim, Your Grace.”

I find this sentence very suspicious. It looks like somehow both the Starks and Arryns have some distant claim to the IT. Of course there is no mention of the Lannisters but they joined the rebellion too late and Tywin was clever enough not to press their own possible claim because that would mean the end of the Lannisters as he did not have the strength to hold against 4 kingdoms. Dead men have no claim.

[Moondancer]

Rhaenyra's mother was from the Arryns, and her sons continued the line of the dynasty.

I think Stark claim is further back in history, or in the times of Aegon V.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

This is all so confusing!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I just don't get why people still think Eleane married a Lannister. There is no way the Lannisters have Targaryen blood without that getting a mention. Also, the Lannisters are a great house, they would never marry a woman who had some bastards (by a formidable and mighty men) and married into a minor house of the Westerlands before that.

:agree: If Cersei had dragonsblood, she would have mentioned it while thinking about her potential marriage with Rhaegar, and her sons claims to the throne.

I agree that she might not have got children from her last marriage. She did have something of value though; the dragon egg we discussed in the other thread. Maybe she gave her to the king and the king granted her lands. Or her dowry was only her egg and surname. After all, she is a legitimate Targaryen princess, not some simple highborn.

I think a fertile Targaryen princess is very desirable even if she has bastards or legitimate children. Also this:

Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.”

“You had the better claim, Your Grace.”

I find this sentence very suspicious. It looks like somehow both the Starks and Arryns have some distant claim to the IT. Of course there is no mention of the Lannisters but they joined the rebellion too late and Tywin was clever enough not to press their own possible claim because that would mean the end of the Lannisters as he did not have the strength to hold against 4 kingdoms. Dead men have no claim.

There was always the claim of Conquest. Ned was the first to arrive at KL, at the throne. He could have claimed the throne. And Jon Arryn started the Rebellion. In that way, he could use the claim of Conquest as well.

Rhaenyra's mother was from the Arryns, and her sons continued the line of the dynasty.

I think Stark claim is further back in history, or in the times of Aegon V.

And Rhaenyra's mother had some Targaryen blood. But we don't know how the Arryn line continued. For all we know, the Arryn line with the Targaryen blood ended with Rhaenyra's mother, and continued through some other Arryn line. It would not be the first time something like this happened. It happened to the Arryns before.

[Mithras]

There was always the claim of Conquest. Ned was the first to arrive at KL, at the throne. He could have claimed the throne. And Jon Arryn started the Rebellion. In that way, he could use the claim of Conquest as well.

I think Robert didnot claim the IT by the Right of Conquest. Is there a SSM about this?

[Veltigar]

There was always the claim of Conquest. Ned was the first to arrive at KL, at the throne. He could have claimed the throne. And Jon Arryn started the Rebellion. In that way, he could use the claim of Conquest as well.

And Ned had a bigger emotional claim. After all, he was the one who lost a brother, a sister and a father. And as far as we know, the North was the only region that was undivided, so that could contribute as well.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think Robert didnot claim the IT by the Right of Conquest. Is there a SSM about this?

I think there was something in the books about this. I'll search for it. But it's also important to remember that Robert by law lost his right to the throne when he killed Rhaegar, as being a kinslayer who inherits before you makes you loose the right to inherit.

And Ned had a bigger emotional claim. After all, he was the one who lost a brother, a sister and a father. And as far as we know, the North was the only region that was undivided, so that could contribute as well.

When was Robert officially named King? Before the Siege at Storm's End ended, or after?

[Veltigar]

I think there was something in the books about this. I'll search for it. But it's also important to remember that Robert by law lost his right to the throne when he killed Rhaegar, as being a kinslayer who inherits before you makes you loose the right to inherit.

When was Robert officially named King? Before the Siege at Storm's End ended, or after?

Didn't they decide to back him completely right before (or after) the battle at the Trident?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Found it! From Clash:

Renly shrugged. "Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?" He did not wait for an answer. "Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer."

Right of Conquest.. Robert's bloodties were only used as cover. By law, he would no longer have a right to the throne due to killing Rhaegar, the heir to the throne, on purpose.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Didn't they decide to back him completely right before (or after) the battle at the Trident?

It says so on the wiki, but I haven't been able to find it in an SSM or in the books..