Lannisters and Plumms

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So who is Baelor's wife?

We don't know :)

[TGR]

We don't know :)

Oh okay, I was afraid that it was some new information that I did not knew about it!

Rhaenys_Targaryen, do you think Baelor's wife could also be one of Eleana's daughter? How about Maekar, Rhaegel and Daemon Blackfyre? Does the Lannister marriage in the OP seem true good enough?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Oh okay, I was afraid that it was some new information that I did not knew about it!

Rhaenys_Targaryen, do you think Baelor's wife could also be one of Eleana's daughter? How about Maekar, Rhaegel and Daemon Blackfyre? Does the Lannister marriage in the OP seem true good enough?

Personally, I don't think that the Lannisters have Targaryen blood through Elaena. But I do think that it's possible that one of her daughters (if she had any) married Maekar, or Baelor, or Rhaegel. Daemon's chances are smaller, but Jeyne Waters could be an option for him. He married young, though, and I suspect Daena had her hand in that.

I also wouldn't disregard the option that one of Elaena's granddaughters married Valarr, sort of like how Laenor Velaryon married Rhaenyra Targaryen. Both were great-grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Baelor in that case would have married someone else, perhaps for political reasons.

[Veltigar]

Personally, I don't think that the Lannisters have Targaryen blood through Elaena. But I do think that it's possible that one of her daughters (if she had any) married Maekar, or Baelor, or Rhaegel. Daemon's chances are smaller, but Jeyne Waters could be an option for him. He married young, though, and I suspect Daena had her hand in that.

I also wouldn't disregard the option that one of Elaena's granddaughters married Valarr, sort of like how Laenor Velaryon married Rhaenyra Targaryen. Both were great-grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Baelor in that case would have married someone else, perhaps for political reasons.

I agree about the Lannisters. I'm pretty sure they don't have any Targaryen blood.

I think Daemon and Maekar married daughters of Elaene. I think Rhaegal and Baelor married someone else. I think that given the Dornish marriage of Daeron II, he wanted to show that the Targaryens hadn't forgotten about the rest of the Realm. So, he probably married Baelor to an Andal house.

Rhaegal on the other hand, I think was married to a daughter of a relatively minor house (probably crownlands). The reason being that he's mad and they wouldn't want to risk a powerful house (or another branch of House Targaryen) using him as a puppet.

On top of that, I think there is more potential in keeping Elaene's bloodline alive in both Blackfyres, Targaryens and Brightflames. All sources indicate that she was a remarkable woman, and I think it would be great if she were to play a part in future D&E tales. Could you imagine D&E first adventure in the capitol with Elaene and Daemon II around? That would create so much awesome granny moments that we all would forget about the Queen of Thorns.

Another reason why I think it was Daemon who married Jeyne Waters (that's really the only possibilty amongst Elaenes children) is that it would be a good explanations for the Velaryons fall from grace. They suffered loses during tPatQ, but Alyn Oakenfist must have repaired a lot of the damage, otherwise he would not have been considered to be such a great man. Now, if his bastard half-sister married Daemon, the Lord Velaryon would probably have thrown his lot in with the Blackfyres. Especially if non of Daeron II children married a pure Velaryon.

The match also makes sense from Daeron II's PoV. He marries Daemon to a bastard, thereby diminishing his status and simultaniously giving him a good future (the Velaryons at that time must have been one of the richest houses in Westeros. Only the Lannisters with their gold and the Hightowers with Oldtown would probably have been richer). He also shows the Velaryons that he hasn't forgotten the close bond between the two Houses.

Maekar's marriage afterwards would have been arranged by Daeron II to reward Elaene for her loyalty and to keep a powerful woman friendly.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I agree about the Lannisters. I'm pretty sure they don't have any Targaryen blood.

I think Daemon and Maekar married daughters of Elaene. I think Rhaegal and Baelor married someone else. I think that given the Dornish marriage of Daeron II, he wanted to show that the Targaryens hadn't forgotten about the rest of the Realm. So, he probably married Baelor to an Andal house.

Rhaegal on the other hand, I think was married to a daughter of a relatively minor house (probably crownlands). The reason being that he's mad and they wouldn't want to risk a powerful house (or another branch of House Targaryen) using him as a puppet.

On top of that, I think there is more potential in keeping Elaene's bloodline alive in both Blackfyres, Targaryens and Brightflames. All sources indicate that she was a remarkable woman, and I think it would be great if she were to play a part in future D&E tales. Could you imagine D&E first adventure in the capitol with Elaene and Daemon II around? That would create so much awesome granny moments that we all would forget about the Queen of Thorns.

Another reason why I think it was Daemon who married Jeyne Waters (that's really the only possibilty amongst Elaenes children) is that it would be a good explanations for the Velaryons fall from grace. They suffered loses during tPatQ, but Alyn Oakenfist must have repaired a lot of the damage, otherwise he would not have been considered to be such a great man. Now, if his bastard half-sister married Daemon, the Lord Velaryon would probably have thrown his lot in with the Blackfyres. Especially if non of Daeron II children married a pure Velaryon.

The match also makes sense from Daeron II's PoV. He marries Daemon to a bastard, thereby diminishing his status and simultaniously giving him a good future (the Velaryons at that time must have been one of the richest houses in Westeros. Only the Lannisters with their gold and the Hightowers with Oldtown would probably have been richer). He also shows the Velaryons that he hasn't forgotten the close bond between the two Houses.

Maekar's marriage afterwards would have been arranged by Daeron II to reward Elaene for her loyalty and to keep a powerful woman friendly.

For Baelor, that makes a lot of sense.

For Rhaegel, it would be even less possible to use him.as a puppet if his wife came from within the family. That way, the chance of insulting other houses would also be eliminated.

If Daemon married a daughter of Elaena, Jeyne indeed is the only option. There is no way he would have been allowed to marry a trueborn daughter. Though she would be extremely young at the births of Aegon and Aemon, it might not be entirely impossible.

But it would not be a bastard half-sister of Alyn, but of Alyns son. Alyn was already an old men at the birth of his bastards, and big chance that he was no longer alive during the Blackfyre Rebellion. In such a case, you might be right, and this is how the Velaryon power ended.

And yes, :D it would totally be awesome if we meet Elaena in future Dunk and Egg novels, though it seems we'll have to wait at least three more novellas, most likely more, before something like that can even happen.

[Veltigar]

For Baelor, that makes a lot of sense.

For Rhaegel, it would be even less possible to use him.as a puppet if his wife came from within the family. That way, the chance of insulting other houses would also be eliminated.

Ah, but Elaene isn't really from within the family now is she ;) She's a Targaryen alright, but she's a child of Aegon III. Surely, Daeron II was aware of the danger Daemon's heritage through his mother entailed and he wouldn't want to create a second situation where another decendant of Aegon III got close to the IT as a power in their own right. And if Rhaegal had somehow risen to the IT that would surely be the case. His feeble mind would have made him ideal puppet material (Elaene managed to do it with a man who wasn't even a lackwit) and his queen would have pulled the strings. Much safer to reward her by wedding her daughter to Maekar, who was a powerful man and wouldn't be made into a puppet.

If Daemon married a daughter of Elaena, Jeyne indeed is the only option. There is no way he would have been allowed to marry a trueborn daughter. Though she would be extremely young at the births of Aegon and Aemon, it might not be entirely impossible.

I think agewise she to is the only option. Her bastard children were Elaene's oldest and any child born after that would be to young to be the mother of Aegon and Aemon.

But it would not be a bastard half-sister of Alyn, but of Alyns son. Alyn was already an old men at the birth of his bastards, and big chance that he was no longer alive during the Blackfyre Rebellion. In such a case, you might be right, and this is how the Velaryon power ended.

My phrasing was a bit ambiguous but this was what I meant ;) Alyn's son was the Lord Velaryon I was talking about :) (I'm pretty sure Oakenfist is dead by the time of the Blackfyre Rebellion. Why else would Elaene marry Viserys and the other guy if he was still alive and very powerful).

And yes, :D it would totally be awesome if we meet Elaena in future Dunk and Egg novels, though it seems we'll have to wait at least three more novellas, most likely more, before something like that can even happen.

Depends on whether or not we'll get a timejump. I don't think that besides She-wolves there is a clear outline of known to us about how the D&E tales will turn out. Luckily, TWOIAF will answer a lot of our questions before that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Depends on whether or not we'll get a timejump. I don't think that besides She-wolves there is a clear outline of known to us about how the D&E tales will turn out. Luckily, TWOIAF will answer a lot of our questions before that.

The fifth D&E will take place in the Riverlands, according to GRRM on not a blog, so unlikely to feature Elaena I think. From six onwards, for now, everything is still possible :D.

[Hippocras]

If Elaena was first married off to someone old who lacked an heir, is it not possible that she was then made to do the same thing a second time?

Maybe she never married Targaryens at all.

[TGR]

If Elaena was first married off to someone old who lacked an heir, is it not possible that she was then made to do the same thing a second time?

Maybe she never married Targaryens at all.

I guess everybody were talking about her daughters marrying Targs. Apart from Aemon (who became an Kingguard), no other Targaryen would be in age to marry her. Unless Aegon IV would manage to kill / substitute Naerys.

But her daughters could be the wifes of Baelor, Maekar, Rhaegel and even Daemon Blackfyre. What you think?

[Mithras]

If Daemon Blackfyre married Jeyne Waters and Eleana married Damon Lannister, then it would make sense how Fireball killed Lord Lefford and defeated the Lannister host but sent Damon Lannister back to CR. He might have thought that it would not be good to make the queen’s mother a widow again.

[Veltigar]

If Daemon Blackfyre married Jeyne Waters and Eleana married Damon Lannister, then it would make sense how Fireball killed Lord Lefford and defeated the Lannister host but sent Damon Lannister back to CR. He might have thought that it would not be good to make the queen’s mother a widow again.

That's a weird way of reading Damon Lannisters part. I interpreted the passage as "Fireball kicked Damon's ass and the later abandend the fight and fled back to CR". Not that Fireball allowed him to escape, that would be odd since real routes are so rare.

[Mithras]

Fireball was chivalrous enough to spare the youngest Penrose. Damon was not a craven because we see that he always joined the lists in tourneys and challenged better knights than him such as Leo Longthorn at Ashford although he was old at that time. I think Fireball easily defeated him but not chose to kill him.

[Mithras]

Many people ask why we never heard in the books about the Targaryen ancestry of the Lannisters if such a thing existed.

The answer is simple: We did not need that information so far.

Take the Targaryen ancestry of the Baratheons.

IIRC, it was first explained in the Feast by Aemon. Rhaegar also told “our cousin” to Robert in that same book. The reason for giving this information there was to point why Aemon once had a thought that Stannis might possibly be TPtwP because of his Targ blood.

I think the time to reveal the Targaryen ancestry of the Lannisters might be in TWoW. That is because Tyrion will probably ride Viserion and GRRM currently keeps the theory that only those with the blood of the dragon can ride dragons.

[three-eyed monkey]

Nice OP. Good work Paper and Apple. What's your feeling on how it will play out with current characters and storyline?

[Lady of Dragonstone]

I think the time to reveal the Targaryen ancestry of the Lannisters might be in TWoW. That is because Tyrion will probably ride Viserion and GRRM currently keeps the theory that only those with the blood of the dragon can ride dragons.

Paper Waver, I'm on board with you. The Lannister ancestor is most likely a Targaryen in my opinion as well. Amazing work on this thread with putting all of the information together.

Many fans have thought for years that at least one of the current Lannister siblings has Targ genes. I'm particularly excited about all of this because I think Cersei and Tyrion really remind me of the Targaryens in a big way. (Cersei's parallels to Aerys and Tyrion's love for dragons)

I can't wait for TWOIAF.

[Mithras]

Now that TWOIAF is out, it is time to revisit this thread.

We are now certain that the Targaryen Princess of Ossifer Plumm was Elaena Targaryen. So, kudos to Apple Martini and all the others who proposed that Elaena was the one.

The surprising Lannister ancestor turned out to be Lady Rohanne Webber from The Sworn Shield. She married Gerold Lannister and became the grandmother of Tywin.

We learn that Eleana first sired two bastards (Jon and Jeyne Longwaters) from Alyn Velaryon as we suspected. So, Alyn was not her marriage for love, nor she was ever married to him.

We learn that Elaena and Ossifer were married in 176 and the conception of Viserys should not take long after that. When Ossifer died, Elaena must have ruled the Plumms as the regent of baby Viserys.

We learn that during the reign of Daeron II (which started in 184), she was wed to Lord Ronnel Penrose, the Master of Coin, and sired four children from him. The marriage need not happen in 184 but it should not take long either. Probably, Elaena brought Viserys to the court after the Penrose marriage. It is also possible that Lord Penrose took Viserys as his ward until he grew into a man.

However, there is a serious problem associated with this Penrose marriage. In 196, we know that Ser Quentyn Ball slew all the sons of Lady Penrose but the youngest. I have not seen a satisfying explanation for this.

I also wonder what was so special about Ronnel Penrose that Daeron II gave the office of the Master of Coin and the hand of Elaena to him, although he was said to be bad with numbers and sums. Was loyalty the only criteria?

We learn that Lord Ronnel Penrose died during the reign of Daeron II and Elaena married Ser Michael Manwoody with Daeron’s blessing. That puts the upper limit 209 as Daeron II died in this year due to the Spring Sickness. Manwoody was her marriage for love.

It is also certain that Elaena lived at least to the age of seventy, which means that she died in 220 or after.

As for the speculations;

Damon Lannister was not Elaena’s second husband. Nor Tytos married a daughter of Viserys Plumm. Such a shame.

I guess George wanted to avoid giving Targaryen blood to the Lannisters so openly because he wants the majority of the readers (along with some characters in the book) to be convinced with the idea that Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys after he rides Viserion in TWoW. I think that will be a major red herring along with the idea that Targaryen blood is necessary to ride a dragon or three dragonriders are the three heads of the dragon.

There is still the possibility that the Lannisters might be descendants of Plumms in the female line. A daughter of Viserys Plumm is old enough to give birth to Jeyne Marbrand (the mother of Tywin) or even Marla Prester (the mother of Joanna).

[Hippocras]

Very interesting, thanks.

It is confusing that you rule out Lannisters having Targ blood, but also say it is possible that female line Lannisters are descendants of Plumms - ie. Elaena Targaryen. Are you counting only the male line?

As for Manwoody, that part is really interesting because it opens up new speculations on the Daynes, who may easily have married Manwoodys, as well as fAegon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Now that TWOIAF is out, it is time to revisit this thread.

We are now certain that the Targaryen Princess of Ossifer Plumm was Elaena Targaryen. So, kudos to Apple Martini and all the others who proposed that Elaena was the one.

The surprising Lannister ancestor turned out to be Lady Rohanne Webber from The Sworn Shield. She married Gerold Lannister and became the grandmother of Tywin.

We learn that Eleana first sired two bastards (Jon and Jeyne Longwaters) from Alyn Velaryon as we suspected. So, Alyn was not her marriage for love, nor she was ever married to him.

We learn that Elaena and Ossifer were married in 176 and the conception of Viserys should not take long after that. When Ossifer died, Elaena must have ruled the Plumms as the regent of baby Viserys.

We learn that during the reign of Daeron II (which started in 184), she was wed to Lord Ronnel Penrose, the Master of Coin, and sired four children from him. The marriage need not happen in 184 but it should not take long either. Probably, Elaena brought Viserys to the court after the Penrose marriage. It is also possible that Lord Penrose took Viserys as his ward until he grew into a man.

However, there is a serious problem associated with this Penrose marriage. In 196, we know that Ser Quentyn Ball slew all the sons of Lady Penrose but the youngest. I have not seen a satisfying explanation for this.

I also wonder what was so special about Ronnel Penrose that Daeron II gave the office of the Master of Coin and the hand of Elaena to him, although he was said to be bad with numbers and sums. Was loyalty the only criteria?

We learn that Lord Ronnel Penrose died during the reign of Daeron II and Elaena married Ser Michael Manwoody with Daeron’s blessing. That puts the upper limit 209 as Daeron II died in this year due to the Spring Sickness. Manwoody was her marriage for love.

It is also certain that Elaena lived at least to the age of seventy, which means that she died in 220 or after.

As for the speculations;

Damon Lannister was not Elaena’s second husband. Nor Tytos married a daughter of Viserys Plumm. Such a shame.

I guess George wanted to avoid giving Targaryen blood to the Lannisters so openly because he wants the majority of the readers (along with some characters in the book) to be convinced with the idea that Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys after he rides Viserion in TWoW. I think that will be a major red herring along with the idea that Targaryen blood is necessary to ride a dragon or three dragonriders are the three heads of the dragon.

There is still the possibility that the Lannisters might be descendants of Plumms in the female line. A daughter of Viserys Plumm is old enough to give birth to Jeyne Marbrand (the mother of Tywin) or even Marla Prester (the mother of Joanna).

I figured that Ronnel Penrose was installed as Master of Coin and then wed to Elaena, so Elaena would be able to be the Master of Coin in truth, allowing her, through her husband, a place on the Small Council (I suppose the high lords would have been against having a woman on the small council).

As to Targaryen blood through a female line into House Lannister.. By the time you reach Tyrion, though, the blood is more diluted than Quentyn Martells, and his already wasn't enough. I doubt that, even if any Targaryen blooded offspring married into House Lannister, the relations are too distant, and it won't matter.

Very interesting, thanks.

It is confusing that you rule out Lannisters having Targ blood, but also say it is possible that female line Lannisters are descendants of Plumms - ie. Elaena Targaryen. Are you counting only the male line?

As for Manwoody, that part is really interesting because it opens up new speculations on the Daynes, who may easily have married Manwoodys, as well as fAegon.

Elaena's marriage to Manwoody did not result in offspring. She was born in 150AC, so it's likely that by the time she wed for love, she was too old to have children.

[Hippocras]

Ah. Thanks.

I don't think Quentyn's problem was dilution.

I think his problem was partly method: He didn't maintain the eye contact. But it is also not so simplistic as that - not everyone even among brothers and sisters in the direct Targ line is a "dragon". Witness Viserys versus Daenerys.

Quentyn's failure therefore basically says nothing about his own sister's potential, let alone a Lannister's.

[Mithras]

I agree that dilution was not Quentyn's problem. He was scared shitless and that is a major error as we know from Dany. Also one wild dragon at a time, please!

The descriptions of Elaena's dragon egg and Viserion's egg were almost the same. Dany's eggs were probably Targaryen eggs stolen by Varys (which might explain Dany's connection to them).

If Tyrion is a descendant of Elaena, that can explain the affinity of Viserion to both BBP and Tyrion in the future. Although I think Targaryen blood is not a necessity, the dragons might form a bond with the people attending to them even inside their eggs and they might remember their descendants.