BaseBornBastard Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 So as of ADWD, the Umber army has been split with one half fighting for the Lannisters (under Whoresbane) and the other half fighting with Stannis (under Crowfood). Here's what I don't understand, how could something like this even happen? I mean with the Greatjon "incapacitated" someone needs to act as head of House Umber until such time as he is either released or killed or sent to the Wall. Crowfood, as the older of the Greatjon's two uncles, would be his heir and therefore the acting Lord in his absence. So how is it that Whoresbane manages to hijack half of the Umber soldiers and join them to the Lannister/Frey/Bolton side? I find it weird that he can influence half an army of Northmen to join those who killed their King, when he isn't even the Greatjon's heir. Why doesn't everyone just tell him to fuck off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebeber Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Whoresbane went with Lann/Frey/Bolton's because they are holding the Greatjon hostage.Crowfood went with Stannis and got his agreement that he wouldn't have to fight against Whoresbane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 With the Greatjon held as a captive they have to show loyalty to the Boltons, hence Whoresbane taking men to join them. But they hate the Boltons/ Lannisters so quite possibly Whoresbane and Crowfood agreed how many men would stay back in rebellion. If it was an agreed strategy then it would be classic foot-in-both-camps-so-the-House-won't-get-labelled-as-traitors. The Umbers are in the same position as most of the major houses of the north, they can't openly fight the Boltons until somebody frees their family members in the south. Only the Mormonts seemed to escape that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blutraven Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Whoresbane is only with the Boltons because they hold the Greatjon so siding with them will keep him alive, Crowfood wants to kill Boltons and Freys so he's siding with Stannis. You only need to look at the men under their command to see which side they're really on, Whoresbane bought a bunch of old men who probably wouldn't survive the winter anyway, Crowfood bought boys, the boys are inexperienced but they're more use than old men. If the Greatjon was released from captivity by a certain Brotherhood sometime soon, you can expect Whoresbane to defect to Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony of House Stark Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Even if the Greatjon isn't released, if Whoresbane sees chance to help the Manderlys kill off Roose and Ramsay he'll take it i bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Jennings Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 If the Greatjon was released from captivity by a certain Brotherhood sometime soon, you can expect Whoresbane to defect to Stannis. Is that the consensus on the board? That the Greatjon will be freed by the BWB? I'd sure like to see him out kicking ass again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaseBornBastard Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 I realize why Whoresbane is currently allied to the Lannisters, and that he feels he has little choice considering they have his Lord/nephew in captivity and can use his life as leverage. I'm just asking how he has enough "pull" to divide House Umber and bring half the army over to his side if he isn't even the Greatjon's heir. An above poster suggested that dividing the army was secretly planned by Crowfood and Whoresbane in order to appease the Lannisters and still fight against them at the same time. If this is so, then that makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebeber Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I realize why Whoresbane is currently allied to the Lannisters, and that he feels he has little choice considering they have his Lord/nephew in captivity and can use his life as leverage. I'm just asking how he has enough "pull" to divide House Umber and bring half the army over to his side if he isn't even the Greatjon's heir. An above poster suggested that dividing the army was secretly planned by Crowfood and Whoresbane in order to appease the Lannisters and still fight against them at the same time. If this is so, then that makes a lot of sense.They were both named joint castellan in greatjons absence so have equal 'power'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northbound2.0 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Is that the consensus on the board? That the Greatjon will be freed by the BWB? I'd sure like to see him out kicking ass again. It's just one of the many ideas, floating around...but it does hold some weight behind it, especially with a another "Red Wedding" possibly in the works. As for Whoresbane and Crowfood, the above posts sum it. I believe they both know what they are up against. At this point, open destruction of their house is very possible should they go against Bolton/Crown/Frey. I have know doubt where the Whoresbane's loyalty lies. If the Greatjon, is freed we will see just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaseBornBastard Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 They were both named joint castellan in greatjons absence so have equal 'power'. Oh, I see. That explains it then. I wasn't aware of that. It's just one of the many ideas, floating around...but it does hold some weight behind it, especially with a another "Red Wedding" possibly in the works. As for Whoresbane and Crowfood, the above posts sum it. I believe they both know what they are up against. At this point, open destruction of their house is very possible should they go against Bolton/Crown/Frey. I have know doubt where the Whoresbane's loyalty lies. If the Greatjon, is freed we will see just that. I have little doubt that Riverrun will be sacked by the BWB, especially considering that Tom O' Sevens is operating from inside. But what do you mean by "another Red Wedding" in the works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 The Greatjon has more sons than just the Smalljon. I just don't know their ages. One would think that anything from 14 years upwards would be sufficient for the boy to rule the Last Hearth in his own right. Certainly if we go by Robb's example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow's Third Eye Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 The Greatjon has more sons than just the Smalljon. I just don't know their ages.One would think that anything from 14 years upwards would be sufficient for the boy to rule the Last Hearth in his own right. Certainly if we go by Robb's example.This. I don't know if Martin just forgot that Greatjon was supposed to have more sons, if they were killed in the South or they are too Young to rule in their own right, but you would think at the very least they would be mentioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowford Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I realize why Whoresbane is currently allied to the Lannisters, and that he feels he has little choice considering they have his Lord/nephew in captivity and can use his life as leverage. I'm just asking how he has enough "pull" to divide House Umber and bring half the army over to his side if he isn't even the Greatjon's heir. Even putting aside the possibility of Hother and Mors working together, I still don't consider this strange. There is a compelling case for working with Roose Bolton. First of all, they hold the Greatjon hostage. He is not dead. He is still the head of House Umber. So what Whoresbane is doing is agreeing to the Lannisters' demands with the intention of keeping the head of his House alive. Which is a pretty good justification for what he does, and one that will easily sway a lot of Umber vassals. And then there is the fact that when he made that decision Roose was clearly winning. It took Stannis' unexpectedly blindsiding the pro-Lannister forces to change that, and even now his victory is not certain. Without Stannis, the Umbers not only had no chance against Roose, they also had nothing to actually fight for. From what everyone thinks, all male Starks are dead, all female Starks are hostages or hidden away. Again, this would be a pretty good justification for Hother to just grudgingly stand with Roose Bolton and not get his House obliterated in an aimless fight. So I don't see why he wouldn't be able to gather a sizeable portion of the Umber army behind him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Oh, I see. That explains it then. I wasn't aware of that. I have little doubt that the Twins will be sacked by the BWB, especially considering that Tom O' Sevens is operating from inside. But what do you mean by "another Red Wedding" in the works?The Freys are planning a marriage in riverrun(Tom is in riverrun as well, not the Twins). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blutraven Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I realize why Whoresbane is currently allied to the Lannisters, and that he feels he has little choice considering they have his Lord/nephew in captivity and can use his life as leverage. I'm just asking how he has enough "pull" to divide House Umber and bring half the army over to his side if he isn't even the Greatjon's heir. An above poster suggested that dividing the army was secretly planned by Crowfood and Whoresbane in order to appease the Lannisters and still fight against them at the same time. If this is so, then that makes a lot of sense. It's also widely believed thatt the Umber sigil is foreshadowing the Greatjon breaking out of imprisonment and going on a rampage (which would be so cool). Oh, I see. That explains it then. I wasn't aware of that. I have little doubt that the Twins will be sacked by the BWB, especially considering that Tom O' Sevens is operating from inside. But what do you mean by "another Red Wedding" in the works? Some people believe that the wedding between Daven Lannister and his Frey bride will be infiltrated by the BwB and everyone's going to get massacred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaseBornBastard Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 The Freys are planning a marriage in riverrun(Tom is in riverrun as well, not the Twins). Oops. Yeah, I meant to say Riverrun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Whoresbane has the old men and the green boys.Crowfood has the actual fighters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow's Third Eye Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Whoresbane has the old men and the green boys.Crowfood has the actual fighters.No, whorsebane has the greybeards, from Theon spoiler we know Crowfood has the green boys and Greatjon took the real fighters.That whorsebane has the greybeards is another hint that he is double-crossing Roose and is actually working against the Boltons and Freys, as in Dance it is often repeated that the old go out to die during winter to give the young a chance at life. Whorsebane doesn't expect to escape Winterfell without bloodshed, and likely expects to die IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Rayne Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Is that the consensus on the board? That the Greatjon will be freed by the BWB? I'd sure like to see him out kicking ass again. I keep imagining his hair growing back, followed by him pulling down the Twins from the dungeons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I find it weird that he can influence half an army of Northmen to join those who killed their King, I think people put to much weight on to the importance of a 'King'. Men in the Umber lands would of been sent off to fight a Targ and a Baratheon who were just as much their King as Robb was. Their loyalty is to their direct superiors not some distant royal family they have little to no interaction with. And there are many reasons why an Umber might side with Bolton, the most obvious one being that he is installed as 'THE' Lord Umber and his descendants inherit instead of his brothers. A common occurrence in medieval history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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