Heresy 93 Winterfell

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 93, the latest edition of the very fast moving thread that looks behind the struggle for the Iron Throne to try and work out what’s really going in the over-arching Song of Ice and Fire.

And welcome too to the third part of Mace Cooterian’s Centennial Seven project aimed at defining the seven major heresies and bringing together the current thinking and arguments surrounding them.

Thus far we've covered the Wall, and the Timelines, but don't worry if you think you've missed out as we'll have a chance to tie all this together in the two threads before Heresy 100

Speaking for myself, for Mace, and for the other leaders of the project we’ve been immensely pleased at the quite astonishing level of enthusiasm, at the quality of the contributions; and above all by the positive attitude displayed by all. And it would also once again be remiss not to greet all the new faces and former lurkers inspired by it to come in out of the cold.

What has always made Heresy so different and more vibrant and exciting than other threads is that while the theories discussed here have evolved and are often fiercely debated, in general we take a holistic approach. We’ve just covered the dodgy timelines and in this instalment will be looking at Winterfell and its mysteries, but they are not to be considered in isolation. The essay below sets out a starting point for discussion without preconditions. Unlike some other threads there is no question of starting out with a fixed article of faith and denigrating any attempt to disagree; this is all about a free exchange of ideas and the further the Centennial Seven project goes on its way the more apparent it becomes that all of the themes being discussed here are inextricably intertwined.

All in all, we can’t claim to know as much as we’d like to, far less definitively predict how this is all going to turn out, (or have the arrogance to pretend that we do) but I do think we can fairly claim that the ongoing discussion on these pages takes us far deeper into the story and into a far better understanding of the Song of Ice and Fire.

In the meantime if you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business the thread needs no further introduction. Here’s a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy and will house the archives created by the Centennial Seven project. Above all please don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Black Crow]

Winterfell is a slightly different topic and I think it would be fair to say that there are a number of “mysteries” impacting on the story in all sorts of ways. So I’d like to begin with a description of the place as seen in a couple of paragraphs by Catelyn and Bran right at the beginning of AGoT:

First we have Catelyn, entering the godswood in search of Ned:

It was a dark, primal place, three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around it.

So, we’ll come back to the forest later, but right away we thus have a legendary date for the castle’s founding all of 10,000 years ago and this immediately presents us with a big problem, because if Bran the Builder did indeed raise the castle he did so all of 2,000 years before he supposedly raised the Wall if we accept both Catelyn’s date and the traditional belief that the Wall was built after the Long Night 8,000 years ago. We’ve touched on this earlier in the Centennial Seven project of course, so lets leave that aside for the moment and look at the castle itself as seen by our Bran:

To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn’t even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth…

It’s quite a vivid picture and Maester Luwin’s observation is clearly intended as an allusion to a weirwood tree. He may well be right in this and there may be some significance to the comparison, but at the same time it also provides a misleading impression of the real Winterfell. Lets come back to Bran again, just a little further on:

The builders had not even levelled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew that you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out of ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you.

What we also know from Theon’s brief defence of the castle and subsequent escape is that not only is it surrounded by a double stone wall, but there’s a deep moat between the two. In mediaeval terms this might at first seem unusual, but in fact it tells us rather a lot.

What’s immediately striking is the vastness of the area contained within the walls. Not only are there three acres of godswood, which was probably once larger still but there is also sufficient room for a whole host of towers, halls, courtyards, workshops, granaries and other domestic buildings around the original drum tower known as the First Keep and yet all comfortably accommodated with the massive double walls. Once upon a time those walls or their predecessors must have enclosed a huge empty area and far from the castle physically growing larger we’re actually seeing the built part of it slowly expanding to fill that already defined space within the walls – and ditches.

Fortunately there’s a splendid and very relevant parallel here in the 2,000 year old Celtic hill forts such as the famous Maiden Castle in Dorset. Typically these occupy the entire hilltop, extending to 100 acres at Maiden Castle enclosed by very substantial double or even triple banks and ditches. Yet most of the site was left unoccupied with the inhabited areas (including animal pens) being confined to relatively small areas by the gates. While we’re not actually quoted a site area for Winterfell it easily falls within these parameters. It seems obvious therefore that Bran the Builder’s Winterfell was an archetypal Celtic hill fort rather than a classic mediaeval motte and bailey – and that is entirely consistent with the familiar First Men/Celts parallels which we’ve discussed so often before. Indeed we also have a very pertinent example in-house so to speak with the ring-work on the Fist of the First Men.

The Fist in fact provides us with a pretty good idea of the original Winterfell, not the High Mediaeval castle which we see now but a ring-work very like the Fist. Clearly therefore the stone walls and other structures which our Bran climbs and clambers over were not erected by Bran the Builder himself. In this respect its also noticeable that the oldest part of the castle …the First Keep… a squat round fortress that was taller than it looked…is known as the First Keep not as Bran’s Keep or Bran’s Tower as one might expect if he was responsible for it. Therefore while there’s no reason to doubt that Bran the Builder created Winterfell by surrounding the site with a ring-work comprising a massive double earthen ditch and rampart, which now underpins the present stone walls, that perimeter may be his only surviving legacy.

So why did he surround this particular site with those ditches and banks in the first place?

I think that the short answer has to be that rather than pitching upon it as a good site for a castle, he was deliberately enclosing something significant which is even now impacting on the story.

Most obviously there are two very striking features; first that unusually large godswood centring on the weirwood and the pools, some hot, some cold. And secondly the crypts, or perhaps more accurately the caves below Winterfell which have been re-shaped into crypts; caves which are accessed by a deep spiral stair, just like the entrance to the Black Gate up on the Wall.

That immediately raised an important question. We’ve discussed how the Black Gate is said to be as old as the Wall and how the Night Fort appears to have been built around it. Are we looking at the same thing here? Were the crypts created or opened up after Winterfell was built or were they the reason why Bran the Builder threw his double rampart and ditch around the sidhe halls within the hill?

If so that might be consistent with Redriver’s own heresy that the current Winter is not sweeping down from the North, but is originating in Winterfell:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81078-winter-fell/

However I’ll let him summarise that particular argument himself.

In the meantime the crypts themselves present a whole raft of mysteries. As described they are deep underground, and accessed by that spiral staircase. There appears to be a vaulted roof over a central spine corridor lined by sepulchres. The impression given is that there is a statue of each dead lord fronting on to the corridor with a tomb behind. Wives and children of the deceased may also be in there although that’s not entirely clear.

As Bran is carried along the corridor he is required to identify the kings buried there and to all appearances the early ones are closest to the stair and we gradually work forward in time as we pass along until we reach the as yet empty ones. There’s no indication that it runs in a circle although I’d be surprised if it didn’t since the Celts didn’t really do straight lines. At the moment though we don’t know and there’s no hint of any significance to the layout of this particular crypt.

What’s odd are the references to a lower level, said to be where the older kings are buried. This seems very strange. Its possible that if the upper level filled up it might be necessary to extend it or to dig deeper, but starting off at the lower level doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The only other thing we’re told is that its dangerous because its partially collapsed, but somehow that doesn’t ring true either and sounds more like a reason for forbidding exploring. There is something down there and it may not necessarily be the old Kings of Winter.

There is of course a supplementary thought there; if the only dead kings are those on the crypt level we’ve seen then there are a lot fewer generations down there than we’ve been led to believe.

So what's really down there?

There's a lot more to be said on this subject but that's up to you as well as to me

[redriver]

One of the reasons I think Winterfell was sited here was the hot springs.It's also pretty advanced engineering to get this hot water to flow through the walls-a great defense against winter.

If the crypts are built through a natural cave system,then having the older Starks deeper down may make sense in that there's not much digging involved.That's also the case if you want to make sure whom your burying down there stays down there.Or as you suggest,protecting those who live there with the outer double walls.

Anyway,good OP and much to ponder.

[Black Crow]

The hot springs, I'll cheerfully admit, are something that bother me.

I have no problem with pools of hot water bubbling up at ground level, but the hot water piped through the castle implies pressure.

[King of Winters]

One of the reasons I think Winterfell was sited here was the hot springs.It's also pretty advanced engineering to get this hot water to flow through the walls-a great defense against winter.

If the crypts are built through a natural cave system,then having the older Starks deeper down may make sense in that there's not much digging involved.That's also the case if you want to make sure whom your burying down there stays down there.Or as you suggest,protecting those who live there with the outer double walls.

Anyway,good OP and much to ponder.

As long as nobody says it's because of a dragon sleeping under Winterfell, witch supplies the warm waters :P.

With the crypts, could they be some ancient tunnel system for the COTF which could've been why Bran chose that site to build Winterfell?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

My theory has always been that Bran the Builder was the first human Greenseer, and the "crypts" are simply one of the caverns of the Children. My guess is that Brandon the Builder was the first in the line of stark, and he is entombed there in the roots of the weirwood tree. Thus the beginning of the tradition of burying the Kings of Winter and later the Lords of Winterfell down there.

I also speculated that the tradition of burying them with their swords could have been because Bran the Builder's sword, Lightbringer, was left there with him.

[redriver]

The hot springs, I'll cheerfully admit, are something that bother me.

I have no problem with pools of hot water bubbling up at ground level, but the hot water piped through the castle implies pressure.

There probably is pressure in some of the hot water sources.Let's face it,the hot water implies some sort of volcanic activity beneath Winterfell.I'm no hydraulic expert,but could a geyser type source force hot water into a high storage area from where it could filter down through the walls?

We aren't told of anything like this in the novels-but then we're not told everything.What's certain is that hot water flows through the walls.We see it escaping from a ruined wall after Ramsay's sacking.

The volcanic activity is the reason I've speculated that there may be obsidian in the no-go parts of the crypts.

[wolfmaid7]

Great OP BC.

I especially like the part alluding to Winterfells somewhat tree like attributes which I think is very important.

I also share your sentiment about the "piping" this to me signify that there maybe some volcanic tubes in play andthat may account for pressurization .

[alienarea]

Not an expert on castles but:

If one level was full and they couldn't expand sideways because the area was never levelled and / or because of the ring structure, wouldn't it then make sense to build the next level on top? So Winterfell would grow like a tree. And while growing, the weight of the new levels might lead to the lower levels collapsing?

This would imply that the crypts needed to be build over / around a specific location (where Winter fell?).

Just a gut feeling this is where the last hero found the CotF, and why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

And it is the blood of the sacrifice in Bran's vision that made this happen.

[Urrax2]

The hot springs, I'll cheerfully admit, are something that bother me.

I have no problem with pools of hot water bubbling up at ground level, but the hot water piped through the castle implies pressure.

Maybe they are in fact geysers, capped and piped so as to circulate. It wouldn't have to be a continuous flow to circulate - every hour or so, like Old Faithful, would send the warmth around nicely.

ETA: Written simultaneously with redriver's similar suggestion.

Second edit: From Wikipedia on geysers:

"The geyser fields in Iceland are some of the most commercially viable geyser locations in the world. Since the 1920s hot water directed from the geysers has been used to heat greenhouses and to grow food that otherwise could not have been cultivated in Iceland's inhospitable climate. Steam and hot water from the geysers has also been used for heating homes since 1943 in Iceland."

[TheTowerOfJoy]

There probably is pressure in some of the hot water sources.Let's face it,the hot water implies some sort of volcanic activity beneath Winterfell.I'm no hydraulic expert,but could a geyser type source force hot water into a high storage area from where it could filter down through the walls?

We aren't told of anything like this in the novels-but then we're not told everything.What's certain is that hot water flows through the walls.We see it escaping from a ruined wall after Ramsay's sacking.

The volcanic activity is the reason I've speculated that there may be obsidian in the no-go parts of the crypts.

Could just be geothermal, but a volcanic tube is certainly possible.

[Urrax2]

Does the proposition that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell mean literally that at any given moment at least one Stark must be present there? Or is it more symbolic, meaning there must always be a Stark exercising leadership in the North?

[Black Crow]

I also speculated that the tradition of burying them with their swords could have been because Bran the Builder's sword, Lightbringer, was left there with him.

That one I think we can rule out. There's no tradition of Bran being a warrior and he certainly isn't the Last Hero either:

“I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder,” Old Nan said. “That was always your favorite.”

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite.

Having been turned down on Bran the Builder, Old Nan then goes on to tell the story of the Last Hero so clearly they're not one and the same.

[Black Crow]

Does the proposition that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell mean literally that at any given moment at least one Stark must be present there? Or is it more symbolic, meaning there must always be a Stark exercising leadership in the North?

When we've discussed it before we've tended to go with the latter option rather than that there should be a member of the Stark family inside the gates - or the ringwork - 24/7

[redriver]

Does the proposition that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell mean literally that at any given moment at least one Stark must be present there? Or is it more symbolic, meaning there must always be a Stark exercising leadership in the North?

That latter would be my take on it too.Afaik,when Ramsay marries fArya that's the first time there hasn't been a Stark legally or nominally in charge of Winterfell.The marriage before a heart tree sealed the deal.

Besides,these trees don't like being lied to!Enter Winter.

[Black Crow]

That latter would be my take on it too.Afaik,when Ramsay marries fArya that's the first time there hasn't been a Stark legally or nominally in charge of Winterfell.The marriage before a heart tree sealed the deal.

Besides,these trees don't like being lied to!Enter Winter.

Lets not be coy. I've provided a link in the OP to your own thread, how about a summary.

[redriver]

Lets not be coy. I've provided a link in the OP to your own thread, how about a summary.

OK then!The Winter Fell? thread is more about the relationship between the Starks and Winter than the Castle compound itself-(though the subject is touched upon several times).The idea arose from noticing that the winter weather in ADWD is not screaming down from the north as expected,but spreading out from the Winterfell area,eventually reaching the Wall in Jon's last chapter.

This got me to thinking of the Stark words-There must always be a Stark in Winterfell-and linking them to the family motto,-Winter is coming.The idea is that the Starks were given the responsibility of ensuring old god rules in the north in return for Winterfell itself,perhaps as part of the Pact.Just as the NW vows ensure the Wall stays true,the absence of a Stark in Winterfell is seen as a breach of the rules by the old gods and winter is unleashed.We need a Stark back in charge of Winterfell to reverse this situation.With both the Wall compromised by the recent NW antics and a Bolton in charge of Winterfell this could pave the way for a WW invasion and a Long Night.

Having said that,there's still much to explore about Winterfell and the Starks.This idea of it being a Sidhe or COTF hill looks promising to me.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

The quote function is acting up, so I'll do it like this:

redriver said

This got me to thinking of the Stark words-There must always be a Stark in Winterfell-and linking them to the family motto,-Winter is coming.The idea is that the Starks were given the responsibility of ensuring old god rules in the north in return for Winterfell itself,perhaps as part of the Pact.Just as the NW vows ensure the Wall stays true,the absence of a Stark in Winterfell is seen as a breach of the rules by the old gods and winter is unleashed.We need a Stark back in charge of Winterfell to reverse this situation.With both the Wall compromised by the recent NW antics and a Bolton in charge of Winterfell this could pave the way for a WW invasion and a Long Night.

I have always liked this idea of yours. The evidence for winter spreading from Winterfell seems to be there. I have not read your entire thread I must admit and I was wondering how the Long Night (the historic one, that is) fit in. Did the "There must always be a Start in Winterfell"-pact preceed the Long Night? Or follow it? And if it preceded the LN, where were the Starks at that time?

[Black Crow]

Not an expert on castles but:

If one level was full and they couldn't expand sideways because the area was never levelled and / or because of the ring structure, wouldn't it then make sense to build the next level on top? So Winterfell would grow like a tree. And while growing, the weight of the new levels might lead to the lower levels collapsing?

This would imply that the crypts needed to be build over / around a specific location (where Winter fell?).

Just a gut feeling this is where the last hero found the CotF, and why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

And it is the blood of the sacrifice in Bran's vision that made this happen.

I'm not sure that the subsequent building work has had anything to do with the alleged collapse of partial collapse of the lower levels. I don'y get the impression that the castle is very densely packed and the area enclosed by the original ringwork could be very large - there are an awful lot of men taken in there by the Boltons and as I said in the OP the ringwork at Maiden Castle encloses a whole 100 acres.

What's intriguing though when Maester Luwin likened the built up part of it to a tree (weirwood or otherwise) he also spoke of its roots sunk deep into the earth… Was he just talking of the crypt(s) or is there more we haven't see yet?

[Calvin the Bold]

In regards to the 10000yrs Catelyn says vs the supposed 8000yrs that have passed since Bran the Builder:

It seems if I were to say, "Central Park, 100 acres of forest untouched for 10000 years as the city rose around it."

New York City isnt 10000 years old.

I think the implication is that the area known today as the godswood is extremely old (duh) but it doesnt make for certain Winterfell a 10000yr old castle.