Heresy 93 Winterfell

[TheNorthernWarrior]

Most people just call me an ass so thanks for also calling me smart!

Maybe Im not so great a reader but to me it just helps explain to the reader how they survive the winters.

The most interesting thing you originally said and I neglected to speculate on is the ruined keep.

Perhaps there is some significance in keeping it ruined?

Its more than just survival though, everyone else in the North does without it. Its a comfort thing and it seems to be a more recent added (relatively speaking) feature with the new Great Keep.

I wonder about the old ruined First Keep too. You would think it could be used as a barracks or given to one of the lesser houses that serve the Starks (like the Cassels or Pooles).It seems odd that no one would want to live there, so is it that no one is allowed to live there? Did something happen there that caused them to abandon it, or did they just move and no one else is around who'd move in.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I feel that if it is fulfilled, it will be in a rather unexpected way, as you point out as a possibility--for example, AA being reborn of Ice instead of Fire, or the Prince that was Promised actually being female (remember: Valyrian does not use gender), or, as I hold would be the case if AAR occurs, it has already happened, with Rhaegar as AAR and Jon as his Lightbringer.

Whatever does happen, I would be very disappointed if it ends up being anywhere near what Mel expects

Well Mel's mistake, IMO, is forcefully trying to fulfill a prophecy, instead of just doing what's right, and having the events take place.

I think it's possible that Mel could become the Nissa Nissa of AAR accidentally by being killed by the real AAR.

And yes, I believe Nissa Nissa was a priestess of R'hllor, or at least someone who used glass candles/flames to see across a great distance.

[JNR]

And yes, I believe Nissa Nissa was... someone who used glass candles/flames to see across a great distance.

Interesting premise. What's the rationale?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Alright, so back to the topic at hand.

There seems to be a mini-consensus that it is likely that BtB is infact entombed at the base of the Winterfell Heart Tree as a greenseer from long ago.

So if the other "tombs" were mimicking his entombment there, what is the significance of the swords they all hold?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Interesting premise. What's the rationale?

Well according to legend, when AA draws the sword from her breast, it immediately catches fire, which sounds like a more significant version of Beric's little sword trick.

Unsmiling, Lord Beric laid the edge of his longsword against the palm of his left hand, and drew it slowly down. Blood ran dark from the gash he made, and washed over the steel.

And then the sword took fire.

I also happen to believe AA and The Last Hero are the same person. My theory is that Nissa Nissa was a great priestess of R'hllor and was watching the events happening in Westeros either through the flames or more likely a glass candle, in addition to seeing visions of the future in the flames, and sending dreams to the Last Hero to guide him. I think it's possible she is the one that recorded the prophecy itself in Ashai. I then speculated that perhaps she saw the Battle for the Dawn that was to come, and travelled from Asshai to Westeros to take part, where she met and married The Last Hero and was subsequently sacrificed to create Lightbringer.

Thus why followers of R'hllor see "The Great Other" and the White Walkers as the murdering, dead, evil enemy of R'hllor, because of the visions she saw and recorded during the Long Night before she left.

[JNR]

The candles are my particular area of interest.

I've not heard of glass candles as having existed prior to Valyria; are you suggesting Nissa Nissa was contemporary with Valyria? Or am I misunderstanding?

[romantic]

Benjen "did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Night-fort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads."

Does anyone else think it strange that the term 'the Stark' is used? Almost like it is a title (Lord, etc.). I don't recall the other great houses being referred to in this way.

[redriver]

Alright, so back to the topic at hand.

There seems to be a mini-consensus that it is likely that BtB is infact entombed at the base of the Winterfell Heart Tree as a greenseer from long ago.

So if the other "tombs" were mimicking his entombment there, what is the significance of the swords they all hold?

The swords are there to "ward in" the ghosts of the dead Starks.I think this is traditional,following the real need to ward the spirit of an ancient Stark deep in the Crypts.I'll elaborate more on this when I introduce my piece on the Night's King.

[redriver]

Benjen "did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Night-fort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads."

Does anyone else think it strange that the term 'the Stark' is used? Almost like it is a title (Lord, etc.). I don't recall the other great houses being referred to in this way.

It reinforces the idea that there must always be a Stark there,and that they have a secondary role in protecting the Wall.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

The candles are my particular area of interest.

I've not heard of glass candles as having existed prior to Valyria; are you suggesting Nissa Nissa was contemporary with Valyria? Or am I misunderstanding?

I think the magic of the glass candles potentially pre-dates Valyria. We do know that the ones that came to the Citadel came from Valyria, but we don't have any indication of where they originated do we?

Isn't it possible that the Valyrians managed to re-ignite glass candles based on historical accounts?

[Toccs]

There seems to be a mini-consensus that it is likely that BtB is infact entombed at the base of the Winterfell Heart Tree as a greenseer from long ago.

Say what? I've never heard that before.

I'd really be stunned, at about the same order of magnitude as if GRRM brought back Ned. I think you're quite safe from that.

I'm a Reanimated Headless Corpse of Ned/Lady Stoneheart shipper, so here's hoping that you're wrong on this one.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Say what? I've never heard that before.

Three or four of us agreed that it was a likely explanation of what is down at the bottom of the crypts. Read back a couple of pages in this thread.

[JNR]

Does anyone else think it strange that the term 'the Stark' is used? Almost like it is a title (Lord, etc.). I don't recall the other great houses being referred to in this way.

It is, de facto, a title, but beyond that, an acknowledgement of the virtually endless hereditary claim of the family's paramount status in the North.

Even the free folk, who care nothing for kneeler nobility, know of and respect the Starks.

I'm not sure if you asked her whether Ygritte could even name the last Targaryen king... or the one who succeeded him.

I think the magic of the glass candles potentially pre-dates Valyria. We do know that the ones that came to the Citadel came from Valyria, but we don't have any indication of where they originated do we?

Isn't it possible that the Valyrians managed to re-ignite glass candles based on historical accounts?

It does seem possible, which is part of why the idea interests me.

It does strongly imply that there was an initial motive, for her to look on the other side of the world that way.

I'm a Reanimated Headless Corpse of Ned/Lady Stoneheart shipper, so here's hoping that you're wrong on this one.

Poor Stoneheart. In love with a man who can't give head.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

It does seem possible, which is part of why the idea interests me.

It does strongly imply that there was an initial motive, for her to look on the other side of the world that way.

Well if Nissa Nissa were a priestess of R'hllor or whatever the equivalent was 5,000-8,000 years ago (timeline debate here), that perhaps she saw something in the flames that made her look in that direction.

[Toccs]

Three or four of us agreed that it was a likely explanation of what is down at the bottom of the crypts. Read back a couple of pages in this thread.

I disagree, I don't think we can even conclusively say that Bran the Builder even existed and what we do hear about him doesn't indicate that he was a greenseer or skinchanger.

Also in my opinion it seems kind of redundant. Bran went on an arduous 3 book long trek to get Beyond the Wall to the secret cave of the Last Greenseer so that he could be trained, and he arrived as "the hour grows late" , when all this time he could have just popped downstairs and had a chat with B the B.

[Urrax2]

And knights before there were knights... Which is from the exact same chapter, same scene. The only indication of the Battle for the Dawn being factual is.... Nothing. And we know that there id at least part of the Battle for the Dawn that is flat untrue: that knights fought the WW to end the Long night. That is, it is untrue unless the Long Night coincides with the arrival of the Andals. No Andals, no knights....

It's typical of old tales to add details that don't fit the time of the tale, like the NY Times piece about Old Testament stories including camels when camels hadn't yet been tamed at the time of the story. Doesn't affect the basic validity of the story, or its otherwise logical timing.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I disagree, I don't think we can even conclusively say that Bran the Builder even existed and what we do hear about him doesn't indicate that he was a greenseer or skinchanger.

Also in my opinion it seems kind of redundant. Bran went on an arduous 3 book long trek to get Beyond the Wall to the secret cave of the Last Greenseer so that he could be trained, and he arrived as "the hour grows late" , when all this time he could have just popped downstairs and had a chat with B the B.

Well I don't think BtB is alive, thus the entombed part. And yes it's true that we don't know that he existed, but we also didn't know the CotF existed until Bran met them.

We know that Greenseers merge with their Weirwoods. We know that humans can become greenseers, and we know that if BtB existed, then he also appears to have chosen to build Winterfell around this one particular Weirwood. He also appeared to have a line of communication with the Children (if we are to believe that their magic really is woven into the wall) that was apparently fairly rare in his time.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree with you Toccs we can't say BtB existed definitively or that he did the things he did.....

But i will say,If he did exist all we know is that he went off with 12 other dudes an a dog, and the COTF helped him. That's it!

I for one think he "is" the Black Gate ,you don't shed a tear for a stranger,you shed a tear for kin.His life/blood was the price for the COTF saving "his" bacon.

I mean you come back from a monumental trip and don't write a bit of info on some stones or something.Drop some knowledge for your descendants.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I agree with you Toccs we can't say BtB existed definitively or that he did the things he did.....

But i will say,If he did exist all we know is that he went off with 12 other dudes an a dog, and the COTF helped him. That's it!

I for one think he "is" the Black Gate ,you don't shed a tear for a stranger,you shed a tear for kin.His life/blood was the price for the COTF saving "his" bacon.

I mean you come back from a monumental trip and don't write a bit of info on some stones or something.Drop some knowledge for your descendants.

Are we talking about BtB or the Last Hero? I happen to ascribe to the theory that they are the same person, but several here definitely disagree with me on that one.

And if he became the Black Gate (interesting take admittedly one I had never heard), then how was he credited with building the Wall and Winterfell?

[redriver]

I disagree, I don't think we can even conclusively say that Bran the Builder even existed and what we do hear about him doesn't indicate that he was a greenseer or skinchanger.

Also in my opinion it seems kind of redundant. Bran went on an arduous 3 book long trek to get Beyond the Wall to the secret cave of the Last Greenseer so that he could be trained, and he arrived as "the hour grows late" , when all this time he could have just popped downstairs and had a chat with B the B.

Certainly no proof,but his achievements with the Wall,weaving magic into it and possibly same with Winterfell (and Storms End?) lead me to think he was a greenseer.

Going back to Black Crow's OP w/r to the part about Winterfell being built on a sidhe/CotF hill,perhaps the Starks booted the original occupants out of there.No one's saying all the Starks were good all the time. :dunno: