Heresy 93 Winterfell

[Toccs]

It's typical of old tales to add details that don't fit the time of the tale, like the NY Times piece about Old Testament stories including camels when camels hadn't yet been tamed at the time of the story. Doesn't affect the basic validity of the story, or its otherwise logical timing.

But it does though. All those bible verses have those mistakes because they were written down hundreds of years after the fact, by people with their own agendas, far removed from the actual events and often times translating from an unfamiliar language.

Another example would be everything that we think we know about Mesoamerican mythology and history. No Maya or Aztec ever sat down and explained all of it to the Spanish (they were too busy dying). Spanish scholars pent centuries trying to translate it and it was only in relatively recently that the breakthrough was made. We think we've accurately translated all their stories, but we could be completely off the mark.

The fact that all of the stories in Westeros as they exist now, were written down by zealous Septons who were transcribing thousands of years old oral history definitely effects their validity. The basic core of the story is possibly still intact but it will take some serious digging to uncover, as the Maesters and characters like Sam, the Reader and Hoster Blackwood are well aware.

[redriver]

But it does though. All those bible verses have those mistakes because they were written down hundreds of years after the fact, by people with their own agendas, far removed from the actual events and often times translating from an unfamiliar language.

Another example would be everything that we think we know about Mesoamerican mythology and history. No Maya or Aztec ever sat down and explained all of it to the Spanish (they were too busy dying). Spanish scholars pent centuries trying to translate it and it was only in relatively recently that the breakthrough was made. We think we've accurately translated all their stories, but we could be completely off the mark.

The fact that all of the stories in Westeros as they exist now, were written down by zealous Septons who were transcribing thousands of years old oral history definitely effects their validity. The basic core of the story is possibly still intact but it will take some serious digging to uncover, as the Maesters and characters like Sam, the Reader and Hoster Blackwood are well aware.

No like buttons anymore,so :bowdown: :bowdown:

ETA-Which leads me to another thought.How much of this are we going to get validated.Yes Bran can seemingly go back in time and witness events,but can he understand what he's seeing?Or when it is for that matter?For example,if he goes back to the Isle of Faces will he understand what they're talking about in the Old Tongue?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

But it does though. All those bible verses have those mistakes because they were written down hundreds of years after the fact, by people with their own agendas, far removed from the actual events and often times translating from an unfamiliar language.

Another example would be everything that we think we know about Mesoamerican mythology and history. No Maya or Aztec ever sat down and explained all of it to the Spanish (they were too busy dying). Spanish scholars pent centuries trying to translate it and it was only in relatively recently that the breakthrough was made. We think we've accurately translated all their stories, but we could be completely off the mark.

The fact that all of the stories in Westeros as they exist now, were written down by zealous Septons who were transcribing thousands of years old oral history definitely effects their validity. The basic core of the story is possibly still intact but it will take some serious digging to uncover, as the Maesters and characters like Sam, the Reader and Hoster Blackwood are well aware.

I don't think anyone said it was proven, just that a few of us had come to the same conclusion that if BtB actually existed, and if even part of his story is true, then he was likely a greenseer, and that if he was a greenseer then a likely conclusion for what could be in the bottom of the tombs is him entombed in his weirwood...

[Toccs]

I agree with you Toccs we can't say BtB existed definitively or that he did the things he did.....

But i will say,If he did exist all we know is that he went off with 12 other dudes an a dog, and the COTF helped him. That's it!

We definitely do not know that, you're talking about the Last Hero.

Remember, Bran didn't want to hear stories about Bran the Buidler, he wanted to hear the story about the Last Hero.

Certainly no proof,but his achievements with the Wall,weaving magic into it and possibly same with Winterfell (and Storms End?) lead me to think he was a greenseer.

Going back to Black Crow's OP w/r to the part about Winterfell being built on a sidhe/CotF hill,perhaps the Starks booted the original occupants out of there.No one's saying all the Starks were good all the time. :dunno:

While there is no doubt that Winterfell and Storm's End are attributed to him, Bran thinks,

Bran the Builder who thousands of years ago built Winterfell, and some say the Wall as well.

So even in Westeros, even in the North, even in Winterfell, only some people credit him with The Wall.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Remember, Bran didn't want to hear stories about Bran the Buidler, he wanted to hear the story about the Last Hero.

Well technically what he said is that the Bran the Builder story wasn't his favorite, and that he prefers scary stories, and then Nan starts in on the Others and the Last Hero.

It's at least possible that she had just never told him that part of the story because he's young, and that part would be pretty frightening for a young boy, but since he asked for something scary, she went into that part of the story.

It's also possible that the Last Hero was Bran the Builder, but through time the connection has become lost and they are told as seperate stories, even though it's about the same person, or perhaps a direct descendant or something.

Or it's even possible that it's all just a bunch of bunk. With that said, the part about the Children and the Others appears to have at least had a seed of truth :)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Thus why followers of R'hllor see "The Great Other" and the White Walkers as the murdering, dead, evil enemy of R'hllor, because of the visions she saw and recorded during the Long Night before she left.

Soooo glad you brought this up. There is nothing at all that connects the Faith of R'hllor and The Great Other with the WW as a part of their religious doctrine. So far, we have met (or seen) a total of 5 (?) Priests of R'hllor. Whom does High Priest Benero rail against? The Blood of Old Valyria behind their stone walls. Whom does Moqorro decry? Dany's enemies. Whom does Thoros decry? All those who do harm to the common man. Whom does Mel decry (at first)? The political and military enemies of Stannis. It is only after Davos brought Aemon's plea to Stannis' attention that Mel has anything to do with the White Walkers and the Icy Lot. The only thing that remotely connects the WW with the Great Other is Mel herself, and she has been shown to be misguided in the text, and Martin has stated that she is not representative of the Faith writ large, essential saying that she went rogue

[Toccs]

No like buttons anymore,so :bowdown: :bowdown:

ETA-Which leads me to another thought.How much of this are we going to get validated.Yes Bran can seemingly go back in time and witness events,but can he understand what he's seeing?Or when it is for that matter?For example,if he goes back to the Isle of Faces will he understand what they're talking about in the Old Tongue?

I wouldn't think so but I don't think we have any example in the books. They would have been speaking the Old Tounge at the time of the sacrifice to the Heart Tree that he saw, but I don't think they ever spoke in that scene.

I suspect that what would happen would be that Bran would see it and not understand, and then we would get an info-dump from Leaf or Bloodraven.

[Toccs]

The hot springs, I'll cheerfully admit, are something that bother me.

I have no problem with pools of hot water bubbling up at ground level, but the hot water piped through the castle implies pressure.

Are we sure that water is being piped through the walls, because proper ventilation would achieve the same results.

ETA:

The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through it's walls and chambers like blood through a man's body.

Certainly sounds like piping to me. I guess the pressure would come from steam in that case.

[LynnS]

Well if Nissa Nissa were a priestess of R'hllor or whatever the equivalent was 5,000-8,000 years ago (timeline debate here), that perhaps she saw something in the flames that made her look in that direction.

And here I was hoping that Nissa Nissa would turn out to be a dragon.

[redriver]

And here I was hoping that Nissa Nissa would turn out to be a dragon.

It may be the Asshai name for planetos,and if the hammer of the waters was a comet...

...then you have a fairly neat allegory.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Soooo glad you brought this up. There is nothing at all that connects the Faith of R'hllor and The Great Other with the WW as a part of their religious doctrine. So far, we have met (or seen) a total of 5 (?) Priests of R'hllor. Whom does High Priest Benero rail against? The Blood of Old Valyria behind their stone walls. Whom does Moqorro decry? Dany's enemies. Whom does Thoros decry? All those who do harm to the common man. Whom does Mel decry (at first)? The political and military enemies of Stannis. It is only after Davos brought Aemon's plea to Stannis' attention that Mel has anything to do with the White Walkers and the Icy Lot. The only thing that remotely connects the WW with the Great Other is Mel herself, and she has been shown to be misguided in the text, and Martin has stated that she is not representative of the Faith writ large, essential saying that she went rogue

Umm no... This seems to be the central belief of the R'hllor priests...

"There are no gods but R'hllor and the Other, whose name may not be said."

– Moqorro

“Your Drowned God is a demon, he is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken.”

- Moqorro, to Victarion Greyjoy

[redriver]

Are we sure that water is being piped through the walls, because proper ventilation would achieve the same results.

ETA:

The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through it's walls and chambers like blood through a man's body.

Certainly sounds like piping to me. I guess the pressure would come from steam in that case.

As said earlier,it spills out of the walls following Ramsay's sacking.Plus Catelyn tells us so,and she's never wrong.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Are we sure that water is being piped through the walls, because proper ventilation would achieve the same results.

ETA:

The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through it's walls and chambers like blood through a man's body.

Certainly sounds like piping to me. I guess the pressure would come from steam in that case.

Great point, like a giant steam radiator :)

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Notice that the sigil of the priests of R'hllor (which is picked up by Stannis) is a flaming heart, and we know that Nissa Nissa was stabbed through the heart to create Lightbringer.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

It may be the Asshai name for planetos,and if the hammer of the waters was a comet...

...then you have a fairly neat allegory.

Well I suppose it could be an allegory, but there are actual stories of a man wielding a flaming sword driving back the Others. Of course it's mythology, so certainly it could be allegorical, but I think there's a seed of truth to it in there somewhere.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

And here I was hoping that Nissa Nissa would turn out to be a dragon.

Well mine is just a theory after all, so I could certainly be wrong :)

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I wouldn't think so but I don't think we have any example in the books. They would have been speaking the Old Tounge at the time of the sacrifice to the Heart Tree that he saw, but I don't think they ever spoke in that scene.

I suspect that what would happen would be that Bran would see it and not understand, and then we would get an info-dump from Leaf or Bloodraven.

At first, you are probably correct, but my understanding of the Weirnet is that it's basically shared knowledge, so it seems he could learn the Old Tongue through his weirwood if he wanted to.

[Toccs]

Umm no... This seems to be the central belief of the R'hllor priests...

"There are no gods but R'hllor and the Other, whose name may not be said."

– Moqorro

“Your Drowned God is a demon, he is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken.”

- Moqorro, to Victarion Greyjoy

Neither of those quotes have anything to do with White Walkers, The Wall, The North or Westeros.

High Priest Benerro, the pope figure of the Red Faith has named Dany as the official AA Reborn, and the destiny he sees for her? To overthrow the last Valyrians and free all of their slaves.

Plus Catelyn tells us so,and she's never wrong.

There's an unreliable narrator joke in there if someone wants to make one up :P .

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Neither of those quotes have anything to do with White Walkers, The Wall, The North or Westeros.

High Priest Benerro, the pope figure of the Red Faith has named Dany as the official AA Reborn, and the destiny he sees for her? To overthrow the last Valyrians and free all of their slaves.

So the "Other" is not related to the "Others" in any way shape or form except in Mel's head?

[Toccs]

So the "Other" is not related to the "Others" in any way shape or form except in Mel's head?

Not even in Mel's head. She had absolutely no interest in the North or the Wall until Davos read Mormont's letter.