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Bakker XXIV: To Be Human is to Be Damned


lokisnow

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In the TJE Mimara describes Kellhus as "radiant and tragic." She tells Akka later that she never looked on him with the Judging Eye, but is it possible that she had (and misremembers) and that the radiant and tragic is from that? In which case, it would be more evidence that Kellhus is a prophet, but that he has also lied (that sorcery still damns - and that ironically, he is a damned prophet).

I think she would have remembered. Seeing with the Judging Eye seems to be a very specific and detailed and overwhelming experience. When she looks at Soot, for example, she sees basically all the good things he ever did, the evil things he ever did, and the balance of each, and winds up knowing him so well she loves him, all in a moment. I think if she saw Kellhus she would know a lot more and her memory of it, and the description, would be a bit more than just that he looked radiant and tragic. As Aspect-Emperor Kellhus looks radiant and tragic to basically everybody. The persecuted prophet/god glamour.

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Random thought: Kellhus' children are as much a liability as they are a boon. Their faculties make them useful as weapons and administrators, but were they convinced of their damnation, they would undoubtedly be useful to the Consult. I wonder, then, whether Kellhus has any plans to exterminate his own children at some point when they've outlived their usefulness. Certainly sending Sorwa to a Consult-controlled Ishterebinth seems like a death sentence, but it doesn't seem like he got much use out of her. Kellhus knows that Ishterebinth belongs to the Consult.



But what about Serwa, does she know? Does she think that her father would never surrender her to the Consult, and therefore it must be safe? The plan that seems most likely, to me, is that Kellhus intends for Serwa to destroy the entire Mansion (possibly at the cost of her life, which he would probably count an even trade for removing so many Quya from the equation). But does she have that kind of power?


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Serwa is a womb for the Nonmen to interbreed and survive... that is Kellhus' gift to the Nonmen. Condemning his daughter to a fate worse than death.

Man, the women who refuse to read these books are really missing out. ;-P

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I don't see how Kellhus could predict Serwa capable of bearing a Nonchild to term where thousands of human concubines have failed before. Even factoring the Nonman ancestry of the Anasurimbor, that was dozens of generations ago, and there's no conceivable way in which she carries enough Nonman alleles for it work.



Moreover, Kellhus plans on breaking Golgotterath before winter. There's no way Serwa could become pregnant (also, lol if she were pregnant with Moe 2.0's kid) and bear a child quick enough to convince the Nonman of the survival of their species.


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Beyond the logistical difficulties involved, it would be a a tired storyline. We don't need another magical womb in the series. I hope even Bakker realizes that taking the worst plot device from the first trilogy and recycling it for use once again is ill advised. Then again, maybe I hope for too much, given Esmenet's sojourn in the whorehouse and the humiliation of Sorweel.


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Moreover, Kellhus plans on breaking Golgotterath before winter. There's no way Serwa could become pregnant (also, lol if she were pregnant with Moe 2.0's kid) and bear a child quick enough to convince the Nonman of the survival of their species.

Maybe a nonman fetus grows beside Lil' Moe's kid, and they fight to the death.

Maybe Lil' Moe's kid comes out a stillborn but also an avatar of the No-God, talking in ALL CAPS out of Serwa's hoo-ha.

Serwa then uses the Gnosis to stab the fetal No-God through her own birth canal with a dildo made of light...because feminism.

And thus Bakker is vindicated. Serwa might even break the fourth wall and tell the "femtards" to suck it.

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I don't see how Kellhus could predict Serwa capable of bearing a Nonchild to term where thousands of human concubines have failed before. Even factoring the Nonman ancestry of the Anasurimbor, that was dozens of generations ago, and there's no conceivable way in which she carries enough Nonman alleles for it work.

Moreover, Kellhus plans on breaking Golgotterath before winter. There's no way Serwa could become pregnant (also, lol if she were pregnant with Moe 2.0's kid) and bear a child quick enough to convince the Nonman of the survival of their species.

To to top, Tbims, if there is a viable human left it is Serwa.

And I think the issue will be that the Nonmen try and use her in that way, not that she'll let that happen.

Beyond the logistical difficulties involved, it would be a a tired storyline. We don't need another magical womb in the series. I hope even Bakker realizes that taking the worst plot device from the first trilogy and recycling it for use once again is ill advised. Then again, maybe I hope for too much, given Esmenet's sojourn in the whorehouse and the humiliation of Sorweel.

Over on SA, we had theory about the Last Scion line. Technically, the Bastard's line of Anasurimbor is False. Esmenet might well be Celmomas' true descendent and, therefore, not a magical womb.

Which, ironically, makes Mimara the second most viable chance for the Nonmen...

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Look, I'm as invested as anybody on seeing one of Kellus' children doing something useful as a means to at least prop up the author's flimsy excuse as to why Kellhus needed to fuck Esmenet apart from poor plot construction. But if that usefulness, in the case of Serwa, turns out to be directly analogous to the only use Esmenet has ever served in the story, in that Kellhus needed her for her womb, then Bakker has truly crossed over into a parody of himself. For his sake, as much my own personal preferences, I hope that will not be the case.


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In particular, he has another, potentially less useful daughter to satisfy Niom. He could easily have brought Theliopia with him.

I wonder if Theli is not so helpless. Dunyain seem to rely on people underestimating them. I know Theli has got issues but they may not be as limiting as we'd expect.

If she's also hiding in the passages with Kel, the two of them might kill off Fayanal.

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I don't think Thelli is hiding or under-estimated. She is what she is - more or less non-functional outside of administrative tasks. She would have been more sensible to send as a hostage if an alliance is truly what Kellhus wanted with Ishterebinth, he would have sent her. Unless he's actually afflicted by sentiment, which I doubt, at least in regards to his children. Serwa-as-a-weapon makes the most sense to me.



But the problem with Serwa-as-a-weapon is that the Consult knows she's a meta-gnostic witch. The Consult knows she's a living super-weapon. There's no way they are unprepared. And Kellhus knows the Consult controls Ishterebinth. Serwa seems like a needless sacrifice.



The function of the ordeal, more or less, isn't even to get the sorcerer's to Golgotterath. It's to screen Kellhus once he's there as he does whatever he has to do to pull the mountain into the earth's crust or whatever badass spell he has planned. The Ordeal is a massive sacrifice. It's possible Serwa is one too, I guess. If she destroys Ishterebinth (and dies doing so), it's counted a win in Kellhus' book.



Then there's the whole idea that Kellhus is planning some Moe-level shit. That Ishual is Conditioned to force Mimara and Achamian make a short journey from Ishual to Ishterebinth and meet Moe, Sorweel, and Serwa. But what would be the purpose behind that machination? And Cleric told Akka that Ishterebinth has fallen to the Consult, so what would drive Achamian to visit it?


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Look, I'm as invested as anybody on seeing one of Kellus' children doing something useful as a means to at least prop up the author's flimsy excuse as to why Kellhus need to fuck Esmenet apart from poor plot construction. But if that usefulness, in the case of Serwa, turns out to be directly analogous to the only use Esmenet has ever served in the story, in that Kellhus needed her for her womb, then Bakker has truly crossed over into a parody of himself. For his sake, as much my own personal preferences, I hope that will not be the case.

Yeah, to think that he would take the most powerful witch in the world and leader of the first school of witches (possibly the most powerful person apart from Kellhus) and only use her as another womb... Awful and borderline trollish. Though I wouldn't put it beyond him tbh if he insists on staying 'true to his original vision' or whatever.

And I think the issue will be that the Nonmen try and use her in that way, not that she'll let that happen.

And does Kellhus think that she will let it happen?

Also, why does he insist on having Sorweel accompany her? Perhaps Sorweel is the womb that the Nonmen will use to restart the breeding process? :drunk:

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Look, I'm as invested as anybody on seeing one of Kellus' children doing something useful as a means to at least prop up the author's flimsy excuse as to why Kellhus needed to fuck Esmenet apart from poor plot construction. But if that usefulness, in the case of Serwa, turns out to be directly analogous to the only use Esmenet has ever served in the story, in that Kellhus needed her for her womb, then Bakker has truly crossed over into a parody of himself. For his sake, as much my own personal preferences, I hope that will not be the case.

Kellhus's children are pretty useful. One leads a gnostic school, one helps coordinate his armies, one is an Imperial advisor, and if Kelmomas is being manipulated by his father one is the perfect little spy/assassin.

But I agree that if Serwa's final fate is to be a broodmare for the Nonmen that will be moronic. The thought of it makes me wonder if TUC will be a clunker...

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Does everyone operate under the assumption that Kellhus will be successful in whatever he has planned and that he has foreseen everything? I wonder, because it does seem that a lot of the comments seem to presuppose as much and work only off of that paradigm.



Perhaps we are missing with our ideas by limiting ourselves to that one possibility. The author, after all, has made several comments indicating we would be borderline stunned with the conclusion to the second trilogy (this being Bakker, he couldn't help but analogize it to a stripper removing her g-string). And in my mind, everything working out according to how Kellhus planned it is, well, dull and predictable. If he really wanted to shock his readers, as evidenced by the threads on this forum, he'd actually do the complete opposite. All these machinations we think and assume Kellhus has worked out correctly are, in actuality, wrong.

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I think that there's a really obvious choice here: that Serwa is being used to transport them quickly to the nonmen. Without her it would take months, presumably, to reach Ish.



Madness' theory also presupposes that the nonmen are actually interested in breeding any more. What evidence do we have that nonmen care about this at this point? Especially ones wedded to the Consult? That was something they did 2000 years ago - but from what we've seen of current nonmen (which is very little, admittedly) there's no indication that they care about having new nonmen.



If Kellhus really cared about having a broodmare that was easily sacrificeable, wouldn't he have brought Theliopia? Much less valuable, more easily controlled, just as useful a bloodline.


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But I agree that if Serwa's final fate is to be a broodmare for the Nonmen that will be moronic. The thought of it makes me wonder if TUC will be a clunker...

RSB has apparently said the very title of the final duology will be a "spoiler".

That makes me wonder, is "The Second Apocalypse" not a spoiler? We clearly haven't seen the Second Apocalypse yet, and just as clearly, if we don't see it, it will be the equivalent of Harry Potter living in a world where Voldemort never comes back (or perhaps it more appropriately for this series, Voldemort living in a world where he never met the Boy who Lived).

Also, if "The Second Apocalypse" is not a spoiler, what could the proposed final duology title be? Take a shot folks...

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