Bakker XXIV: To Be Human is to Be Damned

[Shryke]

I think it's after seduction. She's sleeping and he ruminates on her native intellect.

He obviously sees her as good genetic stock. He seduces her because she's highly intelligent and thus a good candidate for pooping out for semi-Dunyain.

He expresses, afaik, no indication that she's got a special womb that is the only one that can carry his babies.

[Larry of the Lawn]

If we accept Lockesnow's theory that Kellhus's atheist/materialistic outlook is misdirection, here's one from Cnauir:

“War is dark. Black as pitch. It is not a God. It does not laugh or weep....”

War and Birth and both gods apparently, and figure prominently in the series. Though IIRC no one in the Ordeal has been named Battle Celebrant yet right?

I'm picturing the Ordeal newly refreshed on sranc meat, but Saubon has been sulky and in in a foul humour for weeks. After one completely pedestrian episode of sranc culling out on a picket, Saubon returns to find that his old pal Kellhus has put together an impromptu jubilee to name him Battle Celebrant. The gang share a bunch of knee-slappers about the good old days near Mengedda.

---

crackpot: Serwa is actually a secret Yatwerian priestess, protected by the same kind of charm as Sorweel, and this resulted from some kind of fail-safe DaVinci Code rip-off 'Sacred Feminine 'pact that Yatwer and Seswatha had. This turns out to be part of Bakker's 'wait and see what happens before you say i'm not a feminist' angle.

[jurble]

He obviously sees her as good genetic stock. He seduces her because she's highly intelligent and thus a good candidate for pooping out for semi-Dunyain.

He expresses, afaik, no indication that she's got a special womb that is the only one that can carry his babies.

Any other intelligent woman, as far as Kellhus knew, would have sufficed. The fact that none of the concubines succeeded must be because Yatwer is against Kellhus. But why would Yatwer continue to allow Esemenet fertility? Did Esmenet have built-up credit with Yatwer that she expended in the birth of her children?

It's possible the initial set of kids were born before Yatwer moved against Kellhus, then there was the abomination, and then there was Sammy/Kelmomas. But then, if Yatwer were already against Esmenent and Kellhus at that point, what allowed their birth? Could Ajokli have intervened somehow?

[Faint]

This is all irrelevant semantics. Yes, she has a special womb. Imagine for a second she had absolutely no capacity to reproduce with Kellhus and the latter knew this. Think of the outflow from this one single fact and how the story completely changes if her ovaries could not bear Dunyain children.

If I am critical about anything it's that this guise of Esmenet having native intellect and magic ovaries is absolute bullshit and I'm not going to cower from the truth of the matter. The author wanted to accomplish several different things in the story and in order to expedite the process this is what he came up with as a simple plot device that would suffice to serve his needs.

The "native intellect," as the last three books have shown, is just backward engineered justification for something much more crude and simple.

[Faint]

He expresses, afaik, no indication that she's got a special womb that is the only one that can carry his babies.

Yet, apparently that is the case, which is why I have referred to her womb as magical.

[Shryke]

Any other intelligent woman, as far as Kellhus knew, would have sufficed. The fact that none of the concubines succeeded must be because Yatwer is against Kellhus. But why would Yatwer continue to allow Esemenet fertility? Did Esmenet have built-up credit with Yatwer that she expended in the birth of her children?

It's possible the initial set of kids were born before Yatwer moved against Kellhus, then there was the abomination, and then there was Sammy/Kelmomas. But then, if Yatwer were already against Esmenent and Kellhus at that point, what allowed their birth? Could Ajokli have intervened somehow?

Indeed. Apparently he was wrong though. His youngest kids are, what, 10ish or something? When did Yatwer first move against him?

Yet, apparently that is the case, which is why I have referred to her womb as magical.

Right, but that only comes up later in TJE and isn't really a part of anything except establishing that Kellhus has a limited number of children.

What's so offensive to you about this minor detail?

This is all irrelevant semantics. Yes, she has a special womb. Imagine for a second she had absolutely no capacity to reproduce with Kellhus and the latter knew this. Think of the outflow from this one single fact and how the story completely changes if her ovaries could not bear Dunyain children.

If I am critical about anything it's that this guise of Esmenet having native intellect and magic ovaries is absolute bullshit and I'm not going to cower from the truth of the matter. The author wanted to accomplish several different things in the story and in order to expedite the process this is what he came up with as a simple plot device that would suffice to serve his needs.

The "native intellect," as the last three books have shown, is just backward engineered justification for something much more crude and simple.

What the hell are you on about? She appears to be somehow special in that she can breed succesfully with Kellhus. But Kellhus didn't know this at the time. This fact is irrelevant to most of Esmenet's character arc.

How is Esmenet's intellect a "guise"? What is your actual issue here?

[Kalbear]

Any other intelligent woman, as far as Kellhus knew, would have sufficed.

I don't think this is accurate. Kellhus was well aware of how difficult producing new Dunyain were; he dealt with defectives. And he would have asked Maithanet how many defectives Moe went through as well (if he didn't already know). While he might not understand how genetics fundamentally work, he'd know how Dunyain breeding works and how delicate the genetics are there. It's too weird a leap to think that he remained ignorant of it.

And if he didn't get that immediately, he'd get it quite quickly once the results of the concubine abberations occurred.

As to the special womb - while it might not be clear that Esme knows she is special (she does) or Kellhus knows (he does), it's very clear that we are supposed to know that Esme is special. How else is an ex-whore going to have 7 kids? Especially as late as 45 years old? I brought this up in the past, but it's still the case - having kids at 45 is an exceedingly rare thing to happen right now, in the modern world, with modern medicine and fertility aids. There are zero recorded instances in the entire world of any woman 45 or older carrying to term a child without fertility aids. Not a single record.

So yeah, whether it be divine ordainment or nonmen genes or authorial fiat, Esme's womb is pretty special.

Right, but that only comes up later in TJE and isn't really a part of anything except establishing that Kellhus has a limited number of children.

it comes up in either the first or second Esme chapter. It also establishes how hard it is for Dunyain to breed and that Esme is somehow special. It's offensive to think that it isn't a plot detail when it is, very clearly so.

[jurble]

Indeed. Apparently he was wrong though. His youngest kids are, what, 10ish or something? When did Yatwer first move against him?

She was continuosuly pregnant with no down-time up until the abomination. The Holy War was 20 years ago, right? So Kayutas, Thelli, Serwa, Inrilatis were all within 4 years. Then the abomination came. This makes sense, I guess. Those first 4 years, Yatwer had no reason to suspect Kellhus would be a major threat to her worshippers. After he started Unification and the massacres associated with it, she turns against him.

After that, Esmenet went looking for concubines for Kellhus, who all bore abominations. Kelmomas and Sammi seem much younger than 13-14, so the gap between them and Inrilatus must be fairly large. I suppose it's possible Yatwer relented against Esmenet in particular (but not against Kellhus), when Esmenet herself became more disillusioned with her husband?

[Shryke]

I don't think this is accurate. Kellhus was well aware of how difficult producing new Dunyain were; he dealt with defectives. And he would have asked Maithanet how many defectives Moe went through as well (if he didn't already know). While he might not understand how genetics fundamentally work, he'd know how Dunyain breeding works and how delicate the genetics are there. It's too weird a leap to think that he remained ignorant of it.

And if he didn't get that immediately, he'd get it quite quickly once the results of the concubine abberations occurred.

As to the special womb - while it might not be clear that Esme knows she is special (she does) or Kellhus knows (he does), it's very clear that we are supposed to know that Esme is special. How else is an ex-whore going to have 7 kids? Especially as late as 45 years old? I brought this up in the past, but it's still the case - having kids at 45 is an exceedingly rare thing to happen right now, in the modern world, with modern medicine and fertility aids. There are zero recorded instances in the entire world of any woman 45 or older carrying to term a child without fertility aids. Not a single record.

So yeah, whether it be divine ordainment or nonmen genes or authorial fiat, Esme's womb is pretty special.

it comes up in either the first or second Esme chapter. It also establishes how hard it is for Dunyain to breed and that Esme is somehow special. It's offensive to think that it isn't a plot detail when it is, very clearly so.

It's a later plot detail and not related to how Kellhus chooses Esmenet.

So whence comes the issue?

Are we offended at the idea that some people might be special now? In a fantasy book?

[Kalbear]

Are we offended at the idea that some people might be special now? In a fantasy book?

The issue is some people saying that it isn't a special point.

That some people - particularly lockesnow - are claiming that her womb isn't some special snowflake or it isn't an actual plot point. You can ask lockesnow why he thinks this isn't the case, but Faint and I and others are all clear that something special with Esme is going on, something quite unusual.

And Bakker potentially going to that well again is...disconcerting. But not that surprising.

[Shryke]

The issue is some people saying that it isn't a special point.

That some people - particularly lockesnow - are claiming that her womb isn't some special snowflake or it isn't an actual plot point. You can ask lockesnow why he thinks this isn't the case, but Faint and I and others are all clear that something special with Esme is going on, something quite unusual.

And Bakker potentially going to that well again is...disconcerting. But not that surprising.

Lockesnow is raising a potentially valid reason why our current perception is wrong. He's not saying it's not a plot point, he's saying it's a false one. Nothing wrong with that. It's practically his thing.

Beyond that, why is it disconcerting in the first place? Esmenet is not only special for her womb after all since Kellhus chooses her before he knows this. So what's the deal with among her special features there being "able to breed with Dunyain due to <something>"?

[Gaston de Foix]

Any other intelligent woman, as far as Kellhus knew, would have sufficed. The fact that none of the concubines succeeded must be because Yatwer is against Kellhus. But why would Yatwer continue to allow Esemenet fertility? Did Esmenet have built-up credit with Yatwer that she expended in the birth of her children?

This. We have indications from the WLW that Esmenet is, for difficult to articulate reasons, Holy. Kellhus says as much. Yatwer's blessed water flows because of Esmenet's innocence and nature. It's also possible from a divine perspective, Yatwer's war on Kellhus does not cover his children. She doesn't see the purpose or the why of his children's special gifts since the Gods do not comprehend the nature of the Dunyain.

[Kalbear]

Beyond that, why is it disconcerting in the first place? Esmenet is not only special for her womb after all since Kellhus chooses her before he knows this. So what's the deal with among her special features there being "able to breed with Dunyain due to <something>"?

Ask lockesnow; that's not the issue. Or are you asking why it's so disconcerting that the women of the story are once again special because of their ability to breed with super special things?

Yatwer's blessed water flows because of Esmenet's innocence and nature.

Do you have a link for that? Esme would be the last person I would imagine would be thought of by the gods - particularly Yatwer, who actively condemns whore's shells - as innocent.

[Castel]

This. We have indications from the WLW that Esmenet is, for difficult to articulate reasons, Holy. Kellhus says as much. Yatwer's blessed water flows because of Esmenet's innocence and nature. It's also possible from a divine perspective, Yatwer's war on Kellhus does not cover his children. She doesn't see the purpose or the why of his children's special gifts since the Gods do not comprehend the nature of the Dunyain.

What innocence and nature? It must be recent because, iirc Yatwer hates whores. So what happened between her last time with Akka and her having sex with Kellhus that made them friends? Certainly nothing about her -that was not connected to Kellhus-seemed to change.

[Shryke]

Ask lockesnow; that's not the issue. Or are you asking why it's so disconcerting that the women of the story are once again special because of their ability to breed with super special things?

Yes, I'm asking why her ability to produce viable half-dunyain as one of and not the only one of her points of specialness is a problem?

Except, of course, you continue to phrase it such that it reduces their specialness to only that. You keep trying to paint it as their only special point in order to shore up your argument.

So how about you drop that implication and explain the issue without trying to heavily imply the issue is that this is the only reason she's special. I would love to hear your actual issue.

[jurble]

There are zero recorded instances in the entire world of any woman 45 or older carrying to term a child without fertility aids. Not a single record.

The ages involved aren't certain, but Muhammad's wife Khadijah gave birth in her mid-40's. She was over a decade older than him when she married him when he was ~25, and had kids over a span of years. Humorously enough, this is a debate between Islamic sects, not because of the plausibility of Khadijah's age when giving birth, but because if she gave birth to Fatimah when she was younger, then that means Fatimah was >18 when she married. But women in Arabia were almost universally married before age 18, so there's all sorts of timeline issues. If Khadijah didn't give birth in her mid-late 40's, then Fatimah is married so old that some scholars argue she must have been ugly, and that her marriage to Ali was because only Ali was willing to marry an ugly girl out of love for uncle Muhammad. Fun stuff.

[Kalbear]

Yes, I'm asking why her ability to produce viable half-dunyain as one of and not the only one of her points of specialness is a problem?

Because it's once again reducing a woman to her ability to breed regardless of her other special traits. And doing that to Serwa as well would be really distressing as a meta point. Even if she's super special in all sorts of ways - much like Serwa actually is (and not like Esme is stated to be but not actually exhibiting) - having her most valuable trait be that she can whelp is a very sexist message. It's one that Vox Day shares, amusingly enough.

Except, of course, you continue to phrase it such that it reduces their specialness to only that. You keep trying to paint it as their only special point in order to shore up your argument.

seriously, who are you talking to?

Lockesnow said that Esme's womb isn't all that special and it's just a way to make her feel like she is special. I disagree. That is the entire extent of my argument.

The ages involved aren't certain, but Muhammad's wife Khadijah gave birth in her mid-40's.

I'll take modern historical records over religious textual analysis.

[Shryke]

Because it's once again reducing a woman to her ability to breed regardless of her other special traits. And doing that to Serwa as well would be really distressing as a meta point. Even if she's super special in all sorts of ways - much like Serwa actually is (and not like Esme is stated to be but not actually exhibiting) - having her most valuable trait be that she can whelp is a very sexist message. It's one that Vox Day shares, amusingly enough.

No it doesn't. Only you are doing that by avoiding talking about or mentioning her other special points or how they impact the narrative.

You are doing exactly what I said you did before and, it seems, will do again despite me pointing it out: ignoring all other aspects of her character to reduce her to a special womb, simply so you can then complain about her being reduced to a special womb. Do you hate yourself or something?

seriously, who are you talking to?

Lockesnow said that Esme's womb isn't all that special and it's just a way to make her feel like she is special. I disagree. That is the entire extent of my argument.

You. You just fucking said this. In this post. I bolded it.

Holy shit Kalbear, what the fuck? What is wrong with you?

[Kalbear]

No it doesn't. Only you are doing that by avoiding talking about or mentioning her other special points or how they impact the narrative.

I'm not avoiding anything! I'm talking about this one thing. Just the one! I'm not saying that she's ONLY special because of her ability to breed - just that this is Esme's most important point to Kellhus. This is directly stated in the text, even, in TTT! I'm not sure why you're arguing so vehemently on this. As far as Kellhus is concerned Esme has two traits that are important: her 'native intelligence' and her ability to breed. We've spent a lot of time mocking said demonstrations of native intelligence. That's how Kellhus views her. How do you view her such that you think she's special in other ways? Or is it just the native intelligence part?

Serwa has a number of special traits about her currently. She is half-Dunyain. She can read faces and the like. She is exceptionally intelligent. She also is one of the few Mandate in the world, and more importantly she is one of the very few that can do metagnostic cants. All of those things make her special.

If the plot went that she is only important to the world because she can have babies with nonmen - or that is her primary function, the thing that Kellhus is using her for, all of the other stuff doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter that she can do metagnostic cants; that doesn't impact her baby making power. It doesn't matter that she is Mandate; Seswatha isn't going to help her give birth. She's not going to be running around casting spells and fighting the Consult while 6 months pregnant. The implication of the Nonmen using her as a broodmare would mean that she'd be sitting in a dungeon somewhere guarded day and night, popping out babies and being raped when not pregnant.

That's why I say 'reduce' - because no matter what else she is or can be, whatever else she can become, making Serwa a broodmare removes all of that other specialness. It states essentially that it is a waste of time for her. She could have not done any of that and be just as effective a mom. Probably moreso; who knows what casting spells does to a baby's development?

[Kalbear]

You are doing exactly what I said you did before and, it seems, will do again despite me pointing it out: ignoring all other aspects of her character to reduce her to a special womb, simply so you can then complain about her being reduced to a special womb. Do you hate yourself or something?

Actually, let's go with this and start questioning you on it.

What are Esme's special traits?

She was a whore. She fucked Akka for money. She was raped repeatedly by the Consult. She was seduced by Kellhus. She got pregnant by Kellhus several times. She was not particularly loyal. She is kind of brave, but also gloms on to strong males to protect her as her general tactic (which isn't an unsmart thing to do, but isn't exactly something you'd say makes her special).

Now, the text repeatedly states that she's really smart, right? We've spent a lot of time mocking that, but if that's what you think - that she's really really smart too - okay, that's great. I don't really care to argue about that. If you like, I'll change it to that Esme is valued for having a magical womb. She is also valued for some other things too. Many valuable things! It makes it no less anti-feminist to state that women are valued for their ability to breed, no less problematic. If yet another woman is valued for that - one of the very few women in the series, and one that explicitly has all these other traits - it's going to be really problematic too.

I'm not sure how this is so odd. Even if you disagree that Esme has all these awesome abilities or not, that's not really the issue; the issue is that Esme is valued for being able to have kids. That's one of her special things. And that message is a very disturbing one. Doesn't matter about anything else, honestly.