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Bakker XXIV: To Be Human is to Be Damned


lokisnow

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What is the misunderstanding? To put this simply, Esmenet's ovaries were used as a plot device to divide the narrative and inform Esmenet and Achamian's motivations in the second trilogy. Some, including myself, find this to be poor narrative construction, having more in common with daytime soap operas than the rest of the series and wish the author had written something more thoughtful and interesting. My calling this plot device the "magical womb" is just my own personal term of disparagement.


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There are zero recorded instances in the entire world of any woman 45 or older carrying to term a child without fertility aids. Not a single record.

So, I decided to actually look this up. The best I could find was this article, which shows a fertility rate of >0 for women 45+. Unfortunately, the article it cites is behind a pay-wall, but the abstract indicates it's meant to be a measure of natural, unassisted fertility using historical records. Interestingly, the first article got the title of the latter wrong in its citation.

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Yeah, I went and looked into that as too. I'll see if I can find the original article that I was referencing. It was pretty shocking. The article above is fine in any case; even if you say 'sure, there's a chance' it's quite clear that complications are very, very much a big deal from 40 and on, and that's with modern techniques and using fertility methods. Heck, it's quite unusual that Esme hasn't hit menopause until 45 too.



ETA: Here ya go. And i guess that it's not impossible; it's akin to winning the lottery:


Fertility expert James Goldfarb says that in his 30 years on the job, he has never seen a woman get pregnant with her own eggs after age 46. "It's like buying a lottery ticket," he says. "Yes, someone wins every once in a while, but you shouldn't bank on it."


And ETA2: I was wrong. But not hugely so, just a bit. Oldest recorded natural pregnancy that was successful was 57.



And hey - there's apparently a whole bunch of nonmen women out there too.


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Do you have a link for that? Esme would be the last person I would imagine would be thought of by the gods - particularly Yatwer, who actively condemns whore's shells - as innocent.

Not exactly the right link but what sprung to mind for me is the scene in TJE where Kel tells Esmi why the White Luck will break against her.

"Because the anguish that makes mud of all your thoughts, because the fear that stains your days, because all your regret and anger and loneliness . . ." A haloed hand cupped her cheek. Blue eyes sounded her to the bottommost fathoms.

"All this makes you pure."

In some textual irony, right after that is a cut to Nannaferi crying "Cursed be he who misleads the blind man on the road."
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I'm not avoiding anything! I'm talking about this one thing. Just the one! I'm not saying that she's ONLY special because of her ability to breed - just that this is Esme's most important point to Kellhus. This is directly stated in the text, even, in TTT! I'm not sure why you're arguing so vehemently on this. As far as Kellhus is concerned Esme has two traits that are important: her 'native intelligence' and her ability to breed. We've spent a lot of time mocking said demonstrations of native intelligence. That's how Kellhus views her. How do you view her such that you think she's special in other ways? Or is it just the native intelligence part?

But you are reducing her to just that. You literaelly say "it's once again reducing a woman to her ability to breed regardless of her other special traits". ie - all that matters is her magic womb The book isn't doing this reduction, you are by ignoring all the other aspects of her character.

And Kellhus does not value her ability to breed in TTT because he doesn't know (or doesn't show that he knows) anything about that. Nor is there any reason he should. What he values is her intelligence and thus the traits she would pass down to their offspring. This isn't about her special womb it's about her traits and how those traits are heritable. Let me repeat this, there is nothing in PON about how only Esmenet could possibly breed with Kellhus, only that it's desirable to do so because she's smart.

What are Esme's special traits?

Her intelligence. But you already know that. Also her resilience. She's a tough lady.

Now, the text repeatedly states that she's really smart, right? We've spent a lot of time mocking that, but if that's what you think - that she's really really smart too - okay, that's great. I don't really care to argue about that.

Right, but once you are making this argument you are no longer saying the author is being sexist, you are saying he's being incompetent at writing. You are making a statement about a non-gender-related issue.

Or, more simply, you are conceding the point that it's deliberate or intended in any way.

It makes it no less anti-feminist to state that women are valued for their ability to breed, no less problematic. If yet another woman is valued for that - one of the very few women in the series, and one that explicitly has all these other traits - it's going to be really problematic too.

How is that anti-feminist? Are all breeding programs or tracking of heritable traits across generations anti-feminist then?

Because that's the only conclusion of your position here. That no one can ever have a breeding program in a story without being anti-feminist because any breeding program must, by definition, value people (including women) for the traits they can pass on to their offspring.

This is a patently ridiculous position to take.

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If the plot went that she is only important to the world because she can have babies with nonmen - or that is her primary function, the thing that Kellhus is using her for, all of the other stuff doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter that she can do metagnostic cants; that doesn't impact her baby making power. It doesn't matter that she is Mandate; Seswatha isn't going to help her give birth. She's not going to be running around casting spells and fighting the Consult while 6 months pregnant. The implication of the Nonmen using her as a broodmare would mean that she'd be sitting in a dungeon somewhere guarded day and night, popping out babies and being raped when not pregnant.

That's why I say 'reduce' - because no matter what else she is or can be, whatever else she can become, making Serwa a broodmare removes all of that other specialness. It states essentially that it is a waste of time for her. She could have not done any of that and be just as effective a mom. Probably moreso; who knows what casting spells does to a baby's development?

Only if that's all she does.

And if that is all she does, then the rest of her skills do matter if for no other reason then they make her father's use of her all the more tragic and horrible.

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What is the misunderstanding? To put this simply, Esmenet's ovaries were used as a plot device to divide the narrative and inform Esmenet and Achamian's motivations in the second trilogy. Some, including myself, find this to be poor narrative construction, having more in common with daytime soap operas than the rest of the series and wish the author had written something more thoughtful and interesting. My calling this plot device the "magical womb" is just my own personal term of disparagement.

Uh, what? When does this happen?

Her ability to breed with Kellhus informs where she starts in TJE but doesn't effect what happens after and doesn't have anything to do with Akka's plot at all.

It may serve larger purposes later (likely relating to her own ancestry) but all her "magic womb" does in the plot is establish why she's the only mother of the only children Kellhus has. Everything after that is informed and shaped by events not stemming from her uteral exceptionality.

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I think he's talking about the effect Kellhus claiming Esmenet had on his relationship with Akka, and in that sense it did affect the plot.

But again, that had nothing to do with her magic womb and everything to do with her intellect making her a desirable breeding partner.

At that point in the story, no one knows only Esmenet seems capable of producing viable half-Dunyain offspring.

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A Serwa who did not intend to obey her father's plans would presumably be a Serwa who never went to Ishterebinth in the first place. I think she willingly accepts her place in her father's plans, although her conditioning is something we can only guess at.

That depends on how much she knows of her father's plans.

1. There are only two women in the world in the first trilogy and Kellhus gets them both, which he does after mind/soul raping them first--aka Dunyain seduction.

The first trilogy was primarily the story of Kellhus, Achamian, Cnaiur, Serwe, and Esmenet. That does not mean that there are only two women in the world, or we might as well say that there are only three men in the world in the first trilogy.

given that Kellhus gets to fuck everyone and that Esmenet has given birth to half a dozen children in the second trilogy the only logical conclusion is that all women are brood mares

Huh?

Of all the important women in TSA series, (Serwe, Esmi, Istriya, Mimara, Serwa, Theliopa, Pstama, ...) how many are "broodmares"?

On a side note, why the hell are people saying that Yatwer is behind the fact that Esmi is the only woman who can have Kellhus's children and at the same time complaining that modern germ theory tells us that women are unlikely to have children past 45???

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She was continuosuly pregnant with no down-time up until the abomination. The Holy War was 20 years ago, right? So Kayutas, Thelli, Serwa, Inrilatis were all within 4 years. Then the abomination came. This makes sense, I guess. Those first 4 years, Yatwer had no reason to suspect Kellhus would be a major threat to her worshippers. After he started Unification and the massacres associated with it, she turns against him.

After that, Esmenet went looking for concubines for Kellhus, who all bore abominations. Kelmomas and Sammi seem much younger than 13-14, so the gap between them and Inrilatus must be fairly large. I suppose it's possible Yatwer relented against Esmenet in particular (but not against Kellhus), when Esmenet herself became more disillusioned with her husband?

I like this theory, as it implies that we don't need to assume that Esmi is special. Sam/Kel is the only problem. If abominations are due to Yatwer it would mean that it is entirely possible that Kellhus's first four kids would be viable regardless of who the mother was.

If it was about pure chance, and the probability of Esmi having an abomination was always around 50/50 (in total she had about as many abominations as viable kids), the probability of her not getting any abominations among the first four births is only around 6%. Not impossible, but quite unlikely.

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If not a female character baring kellhus's children then, who? Saubon, akka, proyus? I don't get how this is even an argument. Bakker evidently thought he needed dunyain children to advance the plot. So everyone who is calling esement nothing but a broodmare, what are your other options if not a female? These are "human" characters and humans are mammals. Mammals need a male and female to reproduce. So tell me what are the other options?

I'm finding the attitude of this argument of whether esement is a broodmare ludicrous. Do you people really put yourselves on such a high pedastal? That if you wrote this you wouldn't have made these horrible mistakes?

Like I said in the last thread, its your choice to read it or not. And frankly, the line of thinking on this thread is that of haters. (Like madness stated, the 3 or 4 people who steer the conversation the way the want it to go.) Why don't you guys put in 20 years of your life into (IMO, a fantastic series) and let everyone get the same pleasure as you do at tearing apart a humans life work. Its like so many of you are so unhappy with yourselves that this is your only release in life. To come on here and argue and argue with anyone who doesn't conform to your opinions.

eta: I'm saying this because some of you feel as if the "magic womb" is the only explanation. The are other possibilities. I too like the Yatwer theory, but maybe its something in her blood (dunyain, nonman) that hasn't been revealed yet. And yet so many have spent a whole day arguing that it has to be a magic womb and all woman are only broodmare's. I seriously hope that bakker steps up with the most pro-feminist ending possible and so many are left with a foot in their mouth.

I mean theres so many ways it can go. What if kellhus in the end isn't divine and is evil? And maybe something (I don't know what, my imagination isn't that great) in esement is the counter to kellhus's evil? Or serwa is the hero in the end who turns on her father, or mirmara. People have a tendacy to narrow bakker down to a one trick pony. Maybe everyone is way off and he's going someplace that might be unforgettable. Maybe, maybe not. We'll just have to wait and see.

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What innocence and nature? It must be recent because, iirc Yatwer hates whores. So what happened between her last time with Akka and her having sex with Kellhus that made them friends? Certainly nothing about her -that was not connected to Kellhus-seemed to change.

It is true that prostitution is looked down upon in the Yatwerian religious texts but (i) Esmenet has not been a whore for 20 years (ii) she is a victim, perhaps the archetypal victim in the series (iii) there is the memorable scene in TDTCB where she gives gold coins to the child, and reading carefully, I was certain that was a valid instance of Yatwerian giving.

That prostitution is described as immoral in the Yatwerian religious texts does not affect Mimara's self-vision with the Judging Eye and she was no less a prostitute. Morality is objective, we know that, and how Yatwer sees Esmenet is in terms of objective morality, no less than the Judging Eye itself. It is not merely the UnJon quote of Kellhus (though I did have that in mind) but also that the WLW describes her very specifically as the "Holy Empress" in his last POV chapter (as far as I remember the reference). Whether it is Inrilatus or Maithanet or Kellhus or WLW, every person sees as Esmenet as a victim of circumstance and suffering. In fact she is profoundly marked by suffering, by the loss of her children even before Sammi's and Inrilatus' death because of Mimara. That's why she's blessed by Yatwer, who frankly doesn't care about the parentage of Esmenet's children.

This btw, is I think why Kellhus chose her as his wife, not this alleged intellect we see so little of. She is proof against the wrath of the Gods.

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Mimara wasn't damned by her prostitution because it wasn't voluntary. She makes the point in TJE that Esmenet was a caste-menial and that prostitution was a choice for her.

oh come on. The suggestion that free will is so binary in Bakkerverse is difficult to swallow. Read the discussion between Mimara and Akka in Ch.6 of WLW.

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Your point is that Esmenet, like Mimara, was bound by chains unseen? Chains of circumstance? Everyone and everything is bound by circumstance. By that logic, no sin should exist since the world is deterministic. Yet, sin exists. The Universe doesn't care for Esmenet's extenuating circumstances.


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Your point is that Esmenet, like Mimara, was bound by chains unseen? Chains of circumstance? Everyone and everything is bound by circumstance. By that logic, no sin should exist since the world is deterministic. Yet, sin exists. The Universe doesn't care for Esmenet's extenuating circumstances.

If "the Universe" doesn't care for Esmenet's extenuating circumstances, then it doesn't care for Mimara's extenuating circumstances either. Yet we know Mimara is good. You sought to distinguish the two on the basis of free will, not me.

The only possible other explanation is that the scriptural prohibition on prostitution in Earwa is so much hooey. Prostitution is not intrinsically morally wrong.

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If "the Universe" doesn't care for Esmenet's extenuating circumstances, then it doesn't care for Mimara's extenuating circumstances either.

It doesn't for Esmenet's extenuating circumstances specifically because of her caste. Mimara was not a caste-menial. The Universe cares about these distinctions - species, class, caste, and sex. Bakker's drawing on the notion that all the sins apparent in ancient Judaism seem to be boundary-based.

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