Bakker XXIV: To Be Human is to Be Damned

[Anatúrinbor]

Came to love the names in time, but still hate the name Anisurimbor.

Really? Anasurimbor to me is the coolest sounding name in all fiction.

I like a lot of the names in TSA actually; Achamian, Varalt Sorweel, Anasurimbor Serwa, Coithos Saubon, Mog-Pharau, Nersei Proyas, Mimara, Nau-Cayuti. All brilliant. Especially when compared with things like Whiskeyjack, Quickben, Logen, Jon or what have you. The one name I hated at first but now I'm indifferent to is Kellhus.

[Sci-2]

This thread really suffers from a lack of Ginger.

Imagine Kellhus and Cnauir in a buddy cop movie. Kellhus is the nihilistic rookie, and his dad was a conman who came through town and got one over on Cnauir by playing to his on-the-DL homosexuality. Kellhus went to school and subsequently took a job in the town b/c he wants to find his dad who ran out on the family...which is a Buddhist convent for wealthy home schooled white folk.

Kellhus is fucking his college professor's wife Esmenet despite being married to Serwe, the hot but kinda dumb blonde wife of his. Esmi's shameful secret is she used to hook on the side to make ends meet after majoring in philosophy without considering future job prospects. [i kid! I kid!]

The killers Kellus and Cnauir have to catch are skillful con-men cutting off people's faces, wearing them as masks as a way to psyche themselves up to steal their victim's lives. (okay this part admittedly needs work)

When caught, the killers talk and talk about how there are no real morals, and all we need to do to have fun is shut out the Lord and His peeping tom ways.

While trying to track down the killers, suddenly they have to infiltrate a gang Cnauir used to be a part of. Bikers called the Scylvendi....and in walks Ginger...

[Castel]

The killers Kellus and Cnauir have to catch are skillful con-men cutting off people's faces, wearing them as masks as a way to psyche themselves up to steal their victim's lives

Which they tried once,early in the film, at which point they realized that just going ahead and stealing their credit cards and Facebook passwords was much easier and far less gross.

Otherwise... :thumbsup: Would watch on HBO.

[Anatúrinbor]

Why did Happy Ent go Ginger on us?

While trying to track down the killers, suddenly they have to infiltrate a gang Cnauir used to be a part of. Bikers called the Scylvendi....and in walks Ginger...

So Happy Ent is in a Scylvendi biker gang now? Who would have thought...

[Sci-2]

Which they tried once,early in the film, at which point they realized that just going ahead and stealing their credit cards and Facebook passwords was much easier and far less gross.

Otherwise... :thumbsup: Would watch on HBO.

Well they don't actually try and wear the faces as impersonators. It's just a fucked up thing they do in addition to identify theft.

Like if I were to travel to Indiana for some work, they could just kill me and take over my life for the length of that assignment.

[Callan S.]

Sad but also true. If the first five books are anything to go by, in a contest between logic and the author's perverse predilections, the latter always wins. That being the case, not only is Serwa's magic womb and transformation into a broodmare a viable theory, it's probably the favored one at this point.

Why is it, if you look around in RL for RL examples, not our prediliction?

[Anatúrinbor]

If the name Aurang means "the warlord" in Kuniuric, what does "Aurax" mean?

[Anatúrinbor]

That's how I understood this sentence at first,

Aurang, the Norsirai of Kûniüri had called him “the Warlord.” Perhaps the most far-seeing of his many names.

But after rereading it I'm thinking you're probably right. :dunno:

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I actually quite like it. Glad that it's a last name so it doesn't get a horrible nickname like "Esmi" or "Akka" though.

Mo is a bit weird though. Can't figure the pronunciation in my head. It usually winds up being "Mangus," as in the combination of mango and anus.

For what it's worth, Moëngus is spelled with a diaeresis, which indicates that it isn't a diphthong. Words that can get the same treatment include coöperation, preëminent, naïve, Noël, and so on. We end up leaving it out a lot because we already know what those are supposed to sound like.

You'd need an IPA representation (or audio from Bakker) to know the actual colour/purity of the vowels; whether it's en-gus, en-dzus, or eng-us; which syllable(s) are stressed; and so on.

[Faint]

Kellhus as Bakker - I didn't want to think of it that way either - I always thought it was akka. But in a couple interviews there were some oddities.

The first is Kellhus appearance. Kellhus' physical description - tall, long curly hair - is a match for Bakker. At an interview someone asked how tall Kellhus was and he responded something like"last I checked I'm 6'5" ".

Then there was the announcer calling him anasurimbor.

And then there's the hook of the story - in which a breeding program creates super philosophers who take over the world.

Most of that is just odd speculation and not what I was meaning to say; my view is that Kellhus is a stand in for bakkers opinions and views, not his actual person as some kind of wish fulfillment.

These little tidbits are hilarious, especially about the announcer, although I was a little disappointed to learn a couple of posts down that it was only at some talk he gave at a university. I was at first hoping the announcement occurred as he was checking into some amateur sporting event.

[Madness]

For what it's worth, Moëngus is spelled with a diaeresis, which indicates that it isn't a diphthong. Words that can get the same treatment include coöperation, preëminent, naïve, Noël, and so on. We end up leaving it out a lot because we already know what those are supposed to sound like.

You'd need an IPA representation (or audio from Bakker) to know the actual colour/purity of the vowels; whether it's en-gus, en-dzus, or eng-us; which syllable(s) are stressed; and so on.

You may enjoy checking out the latter half of this thread on pronunciation - as I am very much an amateur, I would enjoy reading your thoughts.

[themerchant]

Is there any actual links or such for the claim he "is" Kellhus, or indeed he based Manning on himself as well. I'd like to read the interviews as not read either of them. I've seen an interview where Bakker says Kellhus is about 6 foot 5 but not referring to himself, so it's another interview i've missed that i would like to get caught up on.

I've always thought he thought he was Akka the "doubter", or identified as him. Not from an interview like the above information. Looking forward to reading these interviews as i thought i'd sourced them all, turns out a couple still floating about.

The reasoning for Kellhus to be his avatar in the book seems weak to me personally, i guess you could say then that G R R Martin is Wyman Manderly. Neither sounds credible to me.

[Madness]

I don't remember reading Bakker ever saying "Kellhus is me" or "I am Disciple." But don't listen to the haters and I:

Interviews & Articles

[Sci-2]

On the Three Seas forum Bakker's handle was the ancient Nonman king.

I think trying to say Kellhus is Bakker is a stretch.

eta: Plus I don't see what it buys us in explanatory power even if the physical proportions are roughly the same.

[jurble]

He uses Cujara Cinmoi as his handle on Reddit too. I should name myself after an ancient king I came up with myself. Quork Kwakisquawk, King of the Duckmen.

[unJon]

At the end of WLW we see Akka and Mimara make qirri from Cleric. It looks like it isn't just any ash, but the ashes in the nimil shirt. My guess is that it's really the ash of the burnt heart (the seat if the soul) that gives qirri it's potency, and by burning it possibly let's the nonman find oblivian.

On the other hand this would mean that eatin the soulless sranc won't have any strange effects. So I guess we will see how that goes in TUC.

Also, IIRC, one of the later Akka dreams of Naycatyu (sp?) where his wife poisons him she says she is going to have him buried like a nonman rather than burned a was the human custom. Wonder if there is a metaphysical tie in or the different customs. Did nonmen typically bury and only for the greatest heros did they burn them and collect the heart ash for qirri?

[Shryke]

On the Three Seas forum Bakker's handle was the ancient Nonman king.

I think trying to say Kellhus is Bakker is a stretch.

eta: Plus I don't see what it buys us in explanatory power even if the physical proportions are roughly the same.

Depends what you are trying to explain.

If you want to, say, insult or imply things about the author, it works great since it lets you go "Character X did so and so, therefore the author is Y".

[Kalbear]

The main thing it buys us is a better idea of what message the author is trying to portray. It is more likely that their stand in is saying more truthful things, that their viewpoint is the authors viewpoint, etc.

I'm not sure why this is divisive either. Is akka a better view given that akka is hugely sexist, blind to things he doesn't know and easily manipulated? Seems anyone in the series would be a bad choice as an authorial standin if you're looking to neg them. If you're instead just trying to figure out what the author intended and aren't looking for some character flaws, it can prove more valuable.

[Anatúrinbor]

IIRC Bakker said that with Kellhus he wanted to write a character who's kind of like a kung-fu master but instead of kicking ass with his fists he kicked ass with his ideas or something, that's probably what Bakker thinks he's doing with TSA series. He also said that he writes Kellhus by "throwing shit on the wall", which sounds suspiciously similar to the way he writes his posts online. So yeah, I can definitely see some inspiration there.

[Sci-2]

We haven't had a Kellhus P.o.V. in two books, and are unlikely to have one in the third.

Whatever Kellhus started off as he's something new at this point.

I mean GRRM has flat out stated Tyrion is his P.o.V. but at the same time there's plenty of textual evidence that Tyrion is not as sympathetic as a surface reading might indicate.