Bakker XXIV: To Be Human is to Be Damned

[themerchant]

I don't remember reading Bakker ever saying "Kellhus is me" or "I am Disciple." But don't listen to the haters and I:

Interviews & Articles

Well i'm rather disappointed i thought there were more articles out there hadn't read.

I'm going to do series re-read before TUC anyway, and when i do i'll keep the points brought up in this thread (and other related ones) and see what the reading reveals to me. Although a lot of it might by me pass i suspect. Never been the best at peeling back the layers in literature.

[Madness]

That isn't a complete list, themerchant. lockesnow, for one, has links I don't.

[lokisnow]

Alas, they are dead links.

Are the Bakker critics more judgmental than the Bakker critic critics? How much of it comes down to our conditioning from past events?

How many more times can these threads enter into the meta self-examination...would I know if I had the same timeless perspective of the gods or -

When one believed, one’s soul was moved. When one didn’t, everything else moved.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 2395-2396). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

[Callan S.]

If the name Aurang means "the warlord" in Kuniuric, what does "Aurax" mean?

Come to think of it, on another topic it's odd that a race of lovers dude would be attached to the title of 'warlord'?

[Sci-2]

Come to think of it, on another topic it's odd that a race of lovers dude would be attached to the title of 'warlord'?

I don't think Aurang is his Inchie birth name. It's the name given to him by either Nonmen or humans right?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

First off haven't read a post since my last. I just want to apologize for my outburst. I will go back and read everything. Just wanted to say what's on my chest without getting angry from the BOMBS dropped on me.

First, and foremost, I want everyone to know I am really appreciative of everyone's insights on this thread. I think you all very smart and even though I don't comprehend much of what you guys discuss regarding metaphysics, the watcher and watched and other things. I do begin to understand what your talking about, only I can't hop in convo. Because you can't fake knowing about something. Never the less, I love it.

What I meant in my previous post is this. To begin, I think bakker actually was a Lil smart for his own good or rather was making his comments on feminism regarding his completed series (and didn't realize what he said). Although he DID bring this on his self, and a few on here thoroughly dismantled his argument. I think the time has come to move on.

As I was saying earlier (madness, sorry for bringing u in it.) There are 4 or 5 people here that eventually, giving enough time will turn the conversation into sexism and feminist ideals. When they are not directly making statements, their other posts you can sense that that is where they want to push the conversation . Bakker made a fool of his self and probably continues too. But I feel that this is what it always gets brought back too.

As for esement, I hear being called a broodmare, has no agency, and uve mocked her intellect, dozens! Dozens of you! Well, I think this goes back to you few people that won't let go of the bakker issue.

To me esement is a very dynamic character. Yes the first book she is nothing but a whore with old scares. But after the shame of the consult rape, she pushes forward showing resiliency. The gold coin to that Lil girl, I felt that that was E giving up her old life and forging anew. She moves forward on her own, in dark times...and I call that courageous. I could keep going on, but you see the point. She is so much more than a whore.

After having children wit kellhus, she is a very devoted mother. And whats wrong with this? Being a mother does not degrade you, in fact I think it makes you a stronger more deep of a human being.

Then she is put in exile in the whore house, I hear that is weak. What? What would you have done? Basic human instincts says stay alive, assess the situation. Then when brought before maithenet, and hearing how it was all a misunderstanding and then seeing him killed. Then holding her HEAD HIGH and taking back the empire, how can u say she has no agency? I think in the point of the story in the end, esement has ridden a steady incline to power and self awareness. Now, it kinda scares me for her future, but she has grown dramatically.

All being said, I believe and I'm sure others too. Esement is a complex character. I think you few who always go back to the sexist/feminist side of the story, should stick to ur own point. That the text is all that matters. And from the text, I believe a lot feel the same, esement isn't a simple broodmare and she also has agency. She went from hiding in a whorehouse to reclaiming her power. How does she not have agency.

All in all, the proof is in the pudding. I just read all these threads and there is 3 or 4 who always eventually steer convo to the old bakker grudges. It gets old! There is so many interesting and complex conversations, that we don't need to discuss the sexist/feminist angle anymore. You've proved your point.....get over it! I think it has been a thread/thread and a half pattern where this argument comes up, and you few eventually turn it to a 3 page rant.

Sad part is is you guys have so much more to discuss and your really good at it. Just wish u don't take this as a attack, and just a piece of advise.

[Madness]

Don't apologize to me, MSJ, I appreciate.

Haters going to hate.

There's a whole fan forum for Bakker in my sig, by the way ;).

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Well madness, I feel I'm being taken the wrong way. Even the people who steer the convo to the bakker argument, I still love their other insights. I feel their good people hung up on something that's probably been misconstrued.

I don't loath these people, I just wish they would move on. They have very intellectual minds. Their just stuck on their moral outrage and views. Its over, we get it. You put bakker in his place. Just soooo much more to discuss

[Anatúrinbor]

Come to think of it, on another topic it's odd that a race of lovers dude would be attached to the title of 'warlord'?

Actually, that whole passage in TTT where he brags about all the atrocities that he's committed does seem odd given the context of 'race of lover' and 'ultimate hedonists', which is what some people here have called them.

Yeah, we presumably could not speak or understand his Inchie birthname and neither could the Cunoroi.

But there is mention of the names that the Nonmen and humans gave to him, and Aurang is not one of them. Not that I'm sure these are their original names, but Aurang and Aurax always seemed 'sci-fi' to me compared to all the rest, especially the Aurax.

[Sci-2]

Actually, that whole passage in TTT where he brags about all the atrocities that he's committed does seem odd given the context of 'race of lover' and 'ultimate hedonists', which is what some people here have called them.

I feel like Aurang is sort of a deviant in that he has come to understand morality but acts in defiance of it.

My perception is Aurax is the genuinely amoral one.

But the Inchies run counter to expectation in any number of ways - I mean they have a king with a coat of arms. Aurang even notes its Sil's impatience that costs them....but if Inchies thought he was foolhardy post-crash, why not just depose him?

Did Sil, while alive, have a relationship with the Ark and her Tekne machines? Could he have shut down life support? Were all the Inchies genetically wired to serve him?

Maybe he was just a regular guy with a big ass dick...

[generic]

I feel like Aurang is sort of a deviant in that he has come to understand morality but acts in defiance of it.

Consider this: Both surviving Inchies have been heavily modified (talking, magic, additional dicks probably.....) and for thousands of years there has not been anything like an Inchie society. They aren't what they were when they crashed.

[jurble]

Do you guys think Shae and Aurang still have sex regularly? How do you even have sex with Shae?

[Anatúrinbor]

Do we even know if Aurang has his body? I got the sense that he's bound to the Synthese indefinitely.

[Francis Buck]

I think Aurang could still use his body if he wished. I mean they had functional immortality for thousands upon thousands of years. There's no reason why that would suddenly stop now. I think it just makes more sense for him to fly around as an unassuming little bird rather than an enormous rape monster.

[Sci-2]

Consider this: Both surviving Inchies have been heavily modified (talking, magic, additional dicks probably.....) and for thousands of years there has not been anything like an Inchie society. They aren't what they were when they crashed.

Plus the realization of damnation for stuff they didn't think was wrong must have screwed them up some and made them bitter.

The Inchies may also have castes for specialized tasks, and so Aurang was bred by the Ark for war.

Do you guys think Shae and Aurang still have sex regularly? How do you even have sex with Shae?

Doubt it. Shae is long past his sexy times.

Do we even know if Aurang has his body? I got the sense that he's bound to the Synthese indefinitely.

IIRC Kellhus tells Aurang that his true body is far to the north, with Consult members chanting around it to maintain Aurang's mind in the Synthese.

Of course, how is this possible if all the Consult would have to do what Shae is doing with the circuit of near-cadavers? Can Shae project himself into bodies like Aurang?

IIRC it was Madness who suggested that the Consult will use this technique to pilot weaponizes weaponized synthese.

[unJon]

IIRC Kellhus tells Aurang that his true body is far to the north, with Consult members chanting around it to maintain Aurang's mind in the Synthese.

That isn't inconsistent with Autang being able to use his own body also. What am I missing? Kel is just saying it takes a team of sorcerers to power Aurang's projection into the Synthese. When he's done doing that, his body wakes up and off he goes.

Also no one has successfully overestimated the depravity Bakker has been willing to put in this series, so I wouldn't bet against Shae's near dead body and Autan getting it on.

[Sci-2]

That isn't inconsistent with Autang being able to use his own body also. What am I missing? Kel is just saying it takes a team of sorcerers to power Aurang's projection into the Synthese. When he's done doing that, his body wakes up and off he goes.

Also no one has successfully overestimated the depravity Bakker has been willing to put in this series, so I wouldn't bet against Shae's near dead body and Autan getting it on.

I was arguing for the ability of Aurang to use his body. Though it's likely that given the accumulation of grafts he may not be the fighter he once was. once.

Plus if he can utilize a weaponized synthese it prevents him from risking damnation.

[jurble]

Of course, how is this possible if all the Consult would have to do what Shae is doing with the circuit of near-cadavers? Can Shae project himself into bodies like Aurang?

Presumably all the Mangaecca are in a similar state to Shae - how else could they survive? And we know that the Consult openly skirmished with the Mandate until a few hundred years before the series takes place, and further during the Apocalypse itself that they fielded sorcerers at Tywanrae. Serwa also mentions she dreams of fighting Shae in her dreams. Yet, Achamian's discovery of Shae's dying old guy circuit is apparently novel information. So, when Seswatha dueled with Shae, Shae must've been in a Synthese, as must've the rest of the Mangaecca.

[unJon]

I was arguing for the ability of Aurang to use his body. Though it's likely that given the accumulation of grafts he may not be the fighter he once was. once.

Plus if he can utilize a weaponized synthese it prevents him from risking damnation.

I misunderstood. Agree in theory with weaponized Synthese but I don't know that we have any reason to think they have been able to make these.

I doubt Shae and co were in Synthese while fighting during the apocalypse. Synthese magical ability seems much lower (Aurang Synthese mentions this. He can do glamours and a few other things but not much).

[Francis Buck]

The group of sorcerors huddled around Aurang's body could just be Nonmen.

Regardless, I actually don't think that the entire human portion of the Consult is in the form that we saw Shauriatas in. I feel that's going to be something special for him, either because of it's "reliability" so-to-speak, or because it allows some kind of greater metaphysical abilities. The Inchoroi already achieved bodily immortality both for themselves and the Nonmen, so I don't see why the Consult couldn't have unlocked the human Bios and cooked up something for the Mangaecca as well. Seems like it would have been a major priority early on.