Bakker XXIV: To Be Human is to Be Damned

[Darth Richard II]

Well its good to know im not insane.

[jurble]

Hold out your your arm to your side, with your thumb sticking out at a horizontal angle - now slowly bring your arm while you look straight forward so your thumb crosses your vision at about the middle.

At a certain point the tip of your thumb dissapears.

How often do you notice that absence?

A blindspot isn't the same as suddenly losing half your vision.

But, maybe it's just dark, but I swear I can't see my thumb in my periphery. Probably ought to schedule an opthalmologist appointment, just in case.

Also, I honestly think a First Apocalypse video-game would be awesome. Either as action game with RPG elements, or as a Dynasty Warriors-type game (which is a genre that's totally not been explored as much as it ought to be). Moreover, what video games does Canada have to be proud of? Noffin. Poland's got the Witcher games, surely Bakker can collaborate with a Canadian studio to turn the First Apocalypse into a video-game.

[unJon]

A blindspot isn't the same as suddenly losing half your vision.

There is no "suddenly" if the gods stand outside of time. So for them it is exactly like a blind spot. Always been there. Clever.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Off topic: anybody else constantly type 'tje' on their phone instead of 'the' due to clumsy thumbs and then do a beavis and butthead style " uhhhh... The judging eye..... Huuuhh huhh.." interior monologue?

[Anatúrinbor]

There is no "suddenly" if the gods stand outside of time. So for them it is exactly like a blind spot. Always been there. Clever.

What about when the Gods decide to interfere in the way that Yatwer is doing by sending the WLW? If the Gods exist outside of time then how can they do anything?

[Castel]

What about when the Gods decide to interfere in the way that Yatwer is doing by sending the WLW? If the Gods exist outside of time then how can they do anything?

They didn't decide to interfere right now, they already interfered ages ago, and they're going to do it ages from now. Choice is a bit of a wrinkly concept here.

[Anatúrinbor]

They didn't decide to interfere right now, they already interfered ages ago, and they're going to do it ages from now.

Ok, so instead of right now, how did they decide to interfere ages ago? And ages from now? I don't get it.

Do we know what a world would look like if time did not exist?

[Sci-2]

But if the gods made their choices long ago, they are just gamblers at the Big Bang...or whatever made the Bakkerverse.

I try to think of it as moments of the Inward being cells of animation, and the gods can examine the 3-D block these animations cells make when stacked. Now:

1) So one possibility is that the gods play with the Inward by changing a cell, and this in turn changes all subsequent cells.

Now if the gods can't see the No-God, and likely don't know they don't know, it still seems that after a point it should be clear to them that certain ways they change the cells results in a compete loss of the Inward time block altogether. That, or the gods already lost and we're just being walked through the shutting out process.

2) Attempting to interfere with the Inward block involves you in the flow of time. This complicates things, because there's now this implication that the gods are affected by time but also outside of time. This seems to be what is happening, that the future remains unwritten, but I can't help but feel this is a cake-and-eat-it-too interpretation.

Maybe one of the Atrocity Tales can just be an explanation of Earwan metaphysics...

[jurble]

What about when the Gods decide to interfere in the way that Yatwer is doing by sending the WLW? If the Gods exist outside of time then how can they do anything?

Well, if my knowledge of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure serves, they'd basically view reality as a series of concurrent stills like from a film (except reality isn't discrete in that fashion, but whatevs). So they understand causal relationships, there's just no arrow telling them it only goes in one direction. They can intervene in which ever frame they desire.

[Castel]

But if the gods made their choices long ago, they are just gamblers at the Big Bang...or whatever made the Bakkerverse.

I try to think of it as moments of the Inward being cells of animation, and the gods can examine the 3-D block these animations cells make when stacked. Now:

1) So one possibility is that the gods play with the Inward by changing a cell, and this in turn changes all subsequent cells.

Now if the gods can't see the No-God, and likely don't know they don't know, it still seems that after a point it should be clear to them that certain ways they change the cells results in a compete loss of the Inward time block altogether. That, or the gods already lost and we're just being walked through the shutting out process.

2) Attempting to interfere with the Inward block involves you in the flow of time. This complicates things, because there's now this implication that the gods are affected by time but also outside of time. This seems to be what is happening, that the future remains unwritten, but I can't help but feel this is a cake-and-eat-it-too interpretation.

Maybe one of the Atrocity Tales can just be an explanation of Earwan metaphysics...

I'm confused here. I take it you mean that whatever they do has consequences that do not follow from their actions because there is a variable they cannot see and when the No-God is around everything is lost?

Also, on 2): why would we assume that the future is unwritten?

Ok, so instead of right now, how did they decide to interfere ages ago? And ages from now? I don't get it.

They always decided. I think it's kinda like the grandfather paradox and asking what the prime timeline was like before you fucked your own grandmother: it's a bit pointless. It always happened, there was no moment of choice.

Do we know what a world would look like if time did not exist?

Yes: incredibly fucked up :)

[Sci-2]

I'm confused here. I take it you mean that whatever they do has consequences that do not follow from their actions because there is a variable they cannot see and when the No-God is around everything is lost?

I'm thinking the gods see the Inward like a puzzle game. They jostle one piece (one cell in the animation) and all subsequent cells are affected.

So the gods would know there's an animation cell - which is moment in time - they get shut out where all the subsequent cells can't be played with. But they can fuck with all the cells before this moment the game locks them out and see how to ensure they never get locked out.

Also, on 2): why would we assume that the future is unwritten?

Because the gods are acting in time, and thus subject to its constraints regarding the past and future.

Basically I'm thinking that you can't be an external observer and interact internally with the system. The system here being the Inward.

This is why I see the gods as having their cake and eating it to. They are interacting in time, giving Sorweel chorae and bending Fate and so on, but also watching from the viewpoint in which the Inward is a static object.

[Anatúrinbor]

So the gods would know there's an animation cell - which is moment in time - they get shut out where all the subsequent cells can't be played with. But they can fuck with all the cells before this moment the game locks them out and see how to ensure they never get locked out.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the Gods have their own timeline? or some time other than Earwa's?

[Madness]

While this is topical, I will mention that Cohle's monologue about M-Theory in TD seems to basically describe how I interpret the Gods in Earwa (and the viewers/readers, which struck me a strange analogue when the thought about the Earwan Gods came to me).

[Castel]

I'm thinking the gods see the Inward like a puzzle game. They jostle one piece (one cell in the animation) and all subsequent cells are affected.

So the gods would know there's an animation cell - which is moment in time - they get shut out where all the subsequent cells can't be played with. But they can fuck with all the cells before this moment the game locks them out and see how to ensure they never get locked out.

But Kellhus tells us that they're blind to their blindness. They can't see that they've been locked out, or they would have stopped it.

Because the gods are acting in time, and thus subject to its constraints regarding the past and future.

Basically I'm thinking that you can't be an external observer and interact internally with the system. The system here being the Inward.

This is why I see the gods as having their cake and eating it to. They are interacting in time, giving Sorweel chorae and bending Fate and so on, but also watching from the viewpoint in which the Inward is a static object.

What constraints though? I agree that their proxies are constrained: they have to move through time linearly, but why the gods? They could simply be as bound to their perspective as the WLW. They don't just stand above a flat circle that contains all of time happening all at once, they see themselves that way too. .

[Kalbear]

Why are folks assuming that gods decide?

Do you think that they think they decide? And does it matter if they do or not if everything is preordained?

[Sci-2]

Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the Gods have their own timeline? or some time other than Earwa's?

It's possible - I know Grant Morrison does a lot of stuff with this kind of thing in his comics. He took up another version of this Brane Theory stuff -> Our universe is the 3-D surface of a 4-D object. Time is the 4-D objects rotation.

Not sure how helpful this is but this guy made an interesting video about visualizing 10 dimensions. While I originally thought this was relating to String Theory I don't think it's scientific, and the rest of his stuff his totally New Age speculation, but for the fantasy novel metaphysics I think it's worth a watch.

But Kellhus tells us that they're blind to their blindness. They can't see that they've been locked out, or they would have stopped it.

So they're already locked out? Then how can they act in the world as they should be locked out for all time? Or are they locked out in the future....which would imply time passes similarly for them.

What constraints though? I agree that their proxies are constrained: they have to move through time linearly, but why the gods? They could simply be as bound to their perspective as the WLW. They don't just stand above a flat circle that contains all of time, they see themselves that way too.

So if we're 3-D cells in a 4-D animation block....they're 4-D cells in a 5-D block?

I guess, but this seems to negate the concept of a narrative having any real stakes..

[Francis Buck]

Why are folks assuming that gods decide?

Do you think that they think they decide? And does it matter if they do or not if everything is preordained?

Kinda agree with this line of thought. We're repeatedly told that the gods "aren't quite alive", and that they don't "happen all at once", stuff like that. So I think what Bakker's doing here is trying to hint to us that these don't act or really at all work the way normal lifeforms do. They don't "make decisions".

This is also why I said we're probably never going to get a satisfying answer to this kind of stuff (I.E. things relating to the gods and time and all that). I mean, it kinda can't make sense to our minds. We're dealing with some kind of pseudo-fourth-dimensional plane of existence.

[Castel]

So they're already locked out? Then how can they act in the world as they should be locked out for all time? Or are they locked out in the future....which would imply time passes similarly for them.

I personally like Kalbear's BBT theory even if it is difficult to imagine. They think they're acting, they think they see: they simply don't. They just stitch together their view and reality and come up with something vaguely workable. So they can "act" against Kellhus because they see -and hate-him, but they can't act against the No-God -ever, they're blind for all time- for obvious reasons. So their view of all-time ,and thus their own actions, is slightly (hugely) distorted.

The problem is that it's much easier (and satisfying) to believe that humans have these blindspots than the gods, given how their view works.

So if we're 3-D cells in a 4-D animation block....they're 4-D cells in a 5-D block?

I guess, but this seems to negate the concept of a narrative having any real stakes..

If you're a god, yes. But most of the characters clearly aren't. As long as the timeline is not revealed who cares? It's like..Lord of the Rings: is it diminished by the fact that Eru is all-powerful and knowing and it was all part of his plan? The Oracle knew about Neo and nudged him onto the path, was the film any less interesting afterwards? I'm sure we can pull up other examples of the Gods or prescient being acting in a way that didn't diminish the story.

[Sci-2]

I personally like Kalbear's BBT theory even if it is difficult to imagine. They think they're acting, they think they see: they simply don't. They just stitch together their view and reality and come up with something vaguely workable. So they can "act" against Kellhus because they see -and hate-him, but they can't act against the No-God -ever, they're blind for all time- for obvious reasons. So their view of all-time ,and thus their own actions, is slightly (hugely) distorted.

Except they don't really act, they are in their own frozen time block right?

So you keep going to higher dimensions, where no one is acting or deciding anything because it all happened at once?

The problem is that it's much easier (and satisfying) to believe that humans have these blindspots than the gods, given how their view works.

I think the bigger problem is it apparently is important to the plot but the metaphysics don't seem to make sense.

It's like..Lord of the Rings: is it diminished by the fact that Eru is all-powerful and knowing and it was all part of his plan?

I always figured that Eru stuff was bolted on. Who knows what Tolkien would've decided if Simarillion was actually published by him...and I'd have talked him out of that time shit....by, uh, using a time machine. ;-)

The Oracle knew about Neo and nudged him onto the path, was the film any less interesting afterwards?

Well that series was bad for different reasons.

[Castel]

Except they don't really act, they are in their own frozen time block right?

So you keep going to higher dimensions, where no one is acting or deciding anything because it all happened at once?

Well..yeah, they don't necessarily choose to act in a libertarian way.

I think the bigger problem is it apparently is important to the plot but the metaphysics don't seem to make sense.

IDK, it seems like the same sort of mechanic as the one in Watchmen with Dr. Manhattan and that seems to work just fine there. It doesn't seem like that big a leap. But we'll see what Bakker says in TUC.

I always figured that Eru stuff was bolted on. Who knows what Tolkien would've decided if Simarillion was actually published by him...and I'd have talked him out of that time shit....by, uh, using a time machine. ;-)

Why? Tolkien was a devout Christian right? I doubt it was an afterthought...