Bakker XXIV: To Be Human is to Be Damned

[Sci-2]

I think Kellhus has his own plan, but he did perform at least one miracle - ripping Serwe's heart from his chest.

My prediction is Kellhus looks into the Inverse Fire and totally changes his plan. [Whatever that plan is...]

But yeah, in some way everything hinges on Kellhus and Mimara.

[Anatúrinbor]

What if Kellhus fell in love with Aurang in TTT and is going to Golgotterath to finally meet him in person?

[Happy Ent]

There’s an idea for fanfic right there, Great Ruiner. Fifty shades of puckered, translucent skin.

Kellhus couldn’t forget the idea that Aurang’s real smile waited somewhere behind the luscious lips of Posessed!Esmi. In his mind’s eye, her moist mouth opened around an oyster that sheathed twitching meat. He reached into his own breaches and began stroking Proyas’s member from across the room.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

This is another one that has been discussed a ton, but I personally don't mind at all that you inquire at this place. Just FYI though that there are a fuckton of older Bakker threads you can search for.

I'd say that there are a few competing theories which I'll try to sum up:

-Kellhus actually represents some part of a prophecy

-Said prophecy means it's the end of the world, but that doesn't tell us whether Kellhus is harbinger only or saviour or doom

-Kellhus reached the same conclusion he accused Moehnghus of and killed him only to go onto also join the Consult and seal the world

-Kellhus' inner-monlogue was sincere and he believes he's more than Moe and wants to save humanity from the Consult for whatever reason

-He is actually a Christ-like figure who will actually sacrifice himself for his "children"

-He is above all of this and wants to ascend to becoming The God above all else

-The White-Luck will actually kill him

-Moenhus is playing some kind of long game which Kellhus is a part of

I'm sure I've missed a few, but there's a brief summary of some of the theories about could be going on with the character

If Moe is still alive, do u think he is still part of the narrative? Like do you think he's that cish with fanayal? (Meppa, I believe?)

[Gaston de Foix]

If Moe is still alive, do u think he is still part of the narrative? Like do you think he's that cish with fanayal? (Meppa, I believe?)

Also much speculated upon. Meppa is a Primary though and Moe wasn't.

[unJon]

Also much speculated upon. Meppa is a Primary though and Moe wasn't.

Evidence that Moe was not a Primary is only from Kel's convo with Moe at end of TTT. Those who think Moe is alive also believe Kel made jumped to several incorrect conclusions in that convo.

[Gaston de Foix]

Evidence that Moe was not a Primary is only from Kel's convo with Moe at end of TTT. Those who think Moe is alive also believe Kel made jumped to several incorrect conclusions in that convo.

There's other circumstantial evidence. Seokti and not Mallahet is the leader of the Cish. Moenghus himself confirms Kel's statement, in defensive tones. But yes, it's possible.

[Sci-2]

There’s an idea for fanfic right there, Great Ruiner. Fifty shades of puckered, translucent skin.

Kellhus couldn’t forget the idea that Aurang’s real smile waited somewhere behind the luscious lips of Posessed!Esmi. In his mind’s eye, her moist mouth opened around an oyster that sheathed twitching meat. He reached into his own breaches and began stroking Proyas’s member from across the room.

Heh, glad you were able to work in the metaphysics!

=-=-=

If we look at this series as Gnostic fiction, what would it mean for Kellhus to return humanity to its true divine state?

Wouldn't we all have to die, which places us in danger of the Archons aka The Hundred?

So maybe Kellhus dies and works to prepare a place in the Outside for us? I was thinking the nature of the Outside seems very different for the living versus the dead - so if your soul is encased in flesh you're still kinda screwed.

Perhaps Kellhus needs to die and walk toward the supposed oblivion of the Nonmen to get past what Mimara saw as the "false foil" to the true Unity? And once he's there he can figure out a path to bring everyone there?

Or is that just too optimistic for a Bakker novel[?]

[Faint]

I'm in the Kellhus is a fraud camp. I figure that is the more radical and novel approach to the story and I'm taking the author at his word that the audience will be quite surprised with the conclusion to the next book. Anything resembling Kellhus as an actual messianic figure will just be a different rendering of the prototypical archetype of fantasy literature that I'm assuming Bakker is trying to get away from.

[lokisnow]

Riffing two ways on Kellhus divinity. I would say up until the Circumfixion, Kellhus was walking a divine path.

By that I mean perhaps the gods were on his side, or perhaps big moe came before the gods, and got them to aid and abet Kellhus up until the circumfixion.

After the circumfixion--where Kellhus failed--he is no longer walking a divine path, the trial broke him and what he's doing now is the Dunyain equivalent of erratic. Kellhus seeing the halo is a lie he is comfortable with because it is preferable to the truth he doesn't want to face.

Or, as it was put yesterday on the other forum: The tree in the Circumfixion vision is the tree above Moenghus' non-man mansion. The figure in the Circumfixion vision is Moenghus. The dream itself was from Moenghus and was Moenghus testing whether or not Kellhus was still Dunyain--because Moenghus would never discount the possibility that the trial would break Kellhus, that was just a lie Moe told Kell--and Kellhus failed the test, because the trial broke him.

***

alternative hypothesis: Moe conditioned Kellhus path from Ishual all the way to the Circumfixion, and so Kellhus was walking conditioned ground and was not in any way interacting with nor affiliated with the gods on this journey where Moe had conditioned it.

But randomness intervened in the form of Serwe. She was the grain of sand that caused the avalanche. Her metaphysical status resulted in changes happening to all of Moe's conditioning, and Kellhus went off the path, oh he still arrived at the Circumfixion, but the very narrow pathway through it was gone with the arrival of Serwe.

Instead, Serwe shined a spotlight on Kellhus and through her attention, Kellhus was NOTICED; the gods' favor began to reflect upon him yielding her accurate divine visions of Kellhus. This early ascension to divine notice/divinity is what screwed up the Circumfixion, right down to Kellhus having a wife to be tied too for Circumfixion, yielding the miracle of her heart post Circumfixion. Kellhus himself did not believe and also believed he was in control of people believing he was divine, so he never saw the truth, his not seeing the haloes was the lie he was comfortable with. Until the point he believed post circumfixion and saw himself as divine, and he is then correct.

because of Serwe, Kellhus left Moenghus' narrow path through the Circumfixion, and took the gods' favor path through the Circumfixion. The result was what we see.

[unJon]

There's other circumstantial evidence. Seokti and not Mallahet is the leader of the Cish. Moenghus himself confirms Kel's statement, in defensive tones. But yes, it's possible.

True but your first point has an alternative textual explanation given by the Nansur head sorceror about Mallahat not being Kian. This also assume Moe would have wanted to be the leader of the Cish but was prevented from being so.

Your second point is valid but not in the context we were assuming of Moe being alive, which presupposes that the Moe/Kel convo is full of misinformation assumed by Kel.

[Anatúrinbor]

But how did he pull her heart out of his chest?

[Castel]

*Leans in close*

...

...

Magic.

[jurble]

I'm in the Kellhus is a fraud camp. I figure that is the more radical and novel approach to the story and I'm taking the author at his word that the audience will be quite surprised with the conclusion to the next book. Anything resembling Kellhus as an actual messianic figure will just be a different rendering of the prototypical archetype of fantasy literature that I'm assuming Bakker is trying to get away from.

Eh, Kellhus wouldn't be a messianic figure if he's actually a prophet. From his monologue at the end of TTT and Mimara's observation of the Circumfix as a false symbol, that even if he is a prophet, he's actively lying to people and actively damning them. Jesus saves, but Kellhus damns. He's like an Unprophet, I guess (I mean, shit, the No-God talks to him).

Realistically, even if his Ordeal breaks Golgotterath, he's going to have to slaughter the Ordeal himself. If any of the Schools realize they're still damned at some later point, the whole process will start again.

So, if Kellhus' motives are good/for the sake of humanity/he is a prophet, his plan would look like:

1. Break Golgotterath

2. Destroy his own Ordeal

3. Destroy the Schools

4. Let Fanimry take the Three Seas

Fanimry has the advantage in that the Few of the religion wouldn't, you know, try to end the world. So, that doesn't seem like standard fantasy hero behavior. Too much betrayal.

[Faint]

Since I don't get to read this thread as often as I would like, has it ever been discussed whether the Dûnyain themselves are a creation of the Consult and the path that Kellhus walks is one conditioned by them?

In this version of events, the monastery was destroyed by the Consult soon after Kellhus left to do likewise with all evidence of their involvement.

[jurble]

Aurang's monologue certainly seems to preclude that possibility, as does Aurax's (identity assumed) interrogation at the end of TWP. Mek certainly seems to be surprised there's an Anasurimbor about at the beginning of TDtCB, but his memory isn't the best, obviously.

Still, it'd have had to have been done without the Inchie bros' knowledge, and I doubt that's possible.

[Anatúrinbor]

I like the idea that the Dunyain were sent to Ishual by Seswatha, I think someone wrote a theory on that on TSA.

*Leans in close*

...

...

Magic.

Are we talking about the Gnosis here?

[Faint]

So, if Kellhus' motives are good/for the sake of humanity/he is a prophet, his plan would look like . . .

But see, that is what I was getting at, I think it would be more radical if Kellhus was not good, that his actions were not for the sake of humanity, and that he is not a prophet. Just as Kellhus has gone around conning the characters in-story, the author would be doing the same to his readers. Ergo, in this manner of looking at things, not only is Kellhus not a white figure, he is not even a grey figure; he is positively black.

Or, put another way, let us imagine that Kellhus' story could be one of the three things:

1. Kellhus is acting for the better interest of humanity and perhaps his interests as well;

2. Kellhus is acting for his own interests and against humanity, ultimately for the benefit of the Consult; or

3. Kellhus thinks he is acting for the better of interest of humanity but is instead a puppet of the Consult.

Of those three, I would say, and this is obviously only a personal opinion, that the latter two would be surprising and unexpected, whereas the first is just sticking to the broad framework of the genre.

[jurble]

If Kellhus' motives were against humanity, he wouldn't need the Ordeal. He could teleport up to Golgotterath and lend his expertise. He could show the Consult Ishual, show the Dunyain the Inverse Fire, have the Dunyain move into Golgotterath, and next thing you know, armored Sranc divisions are driving tanks through Momemn!* With the Dunyain, the Consult wouldn't need the No-God.

*Agongorea has oil, after all. It would be hilarious, I admit, if this little bit of descriptive scenery were actually foreshadowing by Bakker.

[Castel]

If Kellhus' motives were against humanity, he wouldn't need the Ordeal. He could teleport up to Golgotterath and lend his expertise. He could show the Consult Ishual, show the Dunyain the Inverse Fire, have the Dunyain move into Golgotterath, and next thing you know, armored Sranc divisions are driving tanks through Momemn!* With the Dunyain, the Consult wouldn't need the No-God.

*Agongorea has oil, after all. It would be hilarious, I admit, if this little bit of descriptive scenery were actually foreshadowing by Bakker.

The theoretical doomsday plan that Kellhus thought Moe was precisely to use the Ordeal as a way to gather all the best men and destroy them, opening the path for the Sranc and Consult. This is the plan Kellhus came up with. And lo and behold, the New Empire is crumbling and the Ordeal has taken a decisive blow.