Anatúrinbor Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I don't think that to be honest. If you've read this far, you've accepted the series for what it is. I find it hard believe readers would actually balk at this turn of events after what was done to Esmenet and Serwa's namesake. I would find it quite upsetting though. Those two weren't powerful metagnostic witches with Dunyain intellect. It was one thing for people to argue that women in PoN all had to resort to sex to have any worth because 'what other weapon did they have in Earwa?' But now he does it with Serwa? What a joke. I know this is only speculation but I guess I'm upset because like you said, knowing Bakker this is the most plausible theory that we have. And if this speculation is actually where Serwa is headed I'll be done with the series. That was my first thought to be honest, but I know I'll probably not go through with it [abandoning the series]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Heh, before we condemn Bakker let's remember the book's not out yet. We've yet to be given indication that Serwa is going to be a brood-mare, and if that was Kellhus's plan as Kal pointed out he could have just given Theli to the Nonmen. It's interesting that Kellhus did have a Scylvendi stepson to toss away though, along with conveniently ridding himself of Yatwer's emissary. And he's sending a daughter who has Seswatha inside of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Heh, before we condemn Bakker let's remember the book's not out yet. We've yet to be given indication that Serwa is going to be a brood-mare, and if that was Kellhus's plan as Kal pointed out he could have just given Theli to the Nonmen. It's interesting that Kellhus did have a Scylvendi stepson to toss away though, along with conveniently ridding himself of Yatwer's emissary. And he's sending a daughter who has Seswatha inside of her. Has there been any progress update? Haven't checked these threads in a while. You people are insane. And his blog is like in some other language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 He said this about three weeks ago, Almost finished, Justin. I’m thinking about another week or so for the rewrite, a week for touch ups, and then I’ll be sending the ms out to my agent and editors. I’ll be making an announcement when the time comes. eta: Based on previous speculation early 2015 is the most likely estimate for the book's release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Heh, before we condemn Bakker let's remember the book's not out yet. We've yet to be given indication that Serwa is going to be a brood-mare, and if that was Kellhus's plan as Kal pointed out he could have just given Theli to the Nonmen. It's interesting that Kellhus did have a Scylvendi stepson to toss away though, along with conveniently ridding himself of Yatwer's emissary. And he's sending a daughter who has Seswatha inside of her. I don't think saying "If this thing that other people are speculating may happen happens then I'm done" is prejudging him. I'll be buying Unholy Consult the second it comes out and probably staying up way too late reading it. But IF that happened, it would be a step too far for what I could accept and continue to be interested in the series let alone give him more financial support. I'd still even finish the book, I just wouldn't be waiting for the final duology that for all we know won't even come out anyway. And I've accepted the series as bleak, awful and unfortunately problematic, but taking one of these couple of women with more agency and then completing debasing her and boiling her down to a womb is not something I've accepted and wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Yeah,I'm still holding out hope for the Serwa/Sorweel ship. That is the OTP.Well, that's one way I can see how Madness's theory could play out. She walks in with Sorweel, discovers the plot, and obviously doesn't like it so she takes him and teleports out. They run away to Eanna or some other place far away from the impending apocalypse, and Serwa and Sorwa lived happily ever after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I don't think saying "If this thing that other people are speculating may happen happens then I'm done" is prejudging him. I'll be buying Unholy Consult the second it comes out and probably staying up way too late reading it. But IF that happened, it would be a step too far for what I could accept and continue to be interested in the series let alone give him more financial support. It wouldn't be bother me one bit if that was what happened with Serwa. It's not that because she is a woman, she *has* to have agency, has to do something special, because supposedly there aren't enough women in the books. It's the same with the endless whining about Poor Esmenet being only a broodmare, she has no agency, she's no modern girl, she's not enough of a perfect leader while Kellhus is away. Serwa is a special women because of her ancestry and her power, but Kellhus is a ruthless motherfucker who's clearly thought this through, he might just use her for his purposes. Seriously what you see here are various grown men who say to themselves, " I crave powerful women in my story and if women don't get enough agency in Bakker's books, it is my duty to come to the Westeros forum and whine about it every single day, 5 years in a row". It's like they've been indoctrinated. It never ends. Almost every discussion gets molested by the talk about how they don't like that the women aren't given enough attention as the men. And if there's nothing to talk about for a while, one of the following topics always gets dragged back in by the haters: 1) " Did you know Bakker once had a sockpuppet on this forum? If you didn't, now you know. Let's talk about that again. Those were the days. remember our moral outrage?" 2) " I know we talked about how Esmenet and Mimara don't have sufficient agency 25 times the last 12 months. But since there is nothing to do right now, shall we do it again, and deride the author once again with our moral outrage, frequently commenting on his presumed personal views on women"? My take: I'm interested in all the current storylines post- WLW and that includes Serwa/Moenghus and Sorweel heading towards Ishterebinth. If it turns out Serwa has some sort of connection to the Nonmen and if her role is that she gets hooked up to one of their race and conceives, that would be fine by me. I don't think that that is what Bakker has in store for Serwa, but I think it's an interesting theory that Madness posited. It could happen. I think though that Bakker has already taken such an incredible amount of flack for not having the women do enough important stuff in the story according to the male feminists, that he would probably be influenced by that and forego the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I agree. But now you should get in the bunker! Bombs are a coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 1) " Did you know Bakker once had a sockpuppet on this forum? If you didn't, now you know. Let's talk about that again. Those were the days. remember our moral outrage?" For real? Link pls. Kthxbye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themerchant Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 The echo chamber in this thread is starting to remind me of the time where in the Bakker and woman thread. The theory that there was some sort of causation between a persons gender and who's name Bakker used was actually entertained seriously. Serwe could possibly rally the Nonmen and lead them to Kelhus after Dalguish has been retaken or when they are in some sort of straits there ala Helm's Deep. As opposed to going there and spreading her legs an action that seems to dominate the thoughts of some; is wishful thinking the father of the thought? Who knows the book hasn't been wtinessed yet, there are uncounted tracks across the Steppe, but of course they are not all equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themerchant Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 You're not much of a male feminist , as an activist anyway, if you spend so much time fighting for it by way of writing criticisms of a mid-level authors fantasy books in which there is no consensus on the charge of my misogyny and which one of the most vocal critics haven't even read the books. The battle field seems like it is so far away from the war, the actual action. We just got same sex marriage passed in Scotland it was a hard long trip and it's becoming more and more accepted in Scottish society as a good thing , a great thing and something to be proud of, while 15 years ago it was still taboo. It was a long hard fight but we won it in the end, and we didn't win it by writing about Steven Erikson only having negative gay(male) characters in his books on public forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 1) " Did you know Bakker once had a sockpuppet on this forum? If you didn't, now you know. Let's talk about that again. Those were the days. remember our moral outrage?" 2) " I know we talked about how Esmenet and Mimara don't have sufficient agency 25 times the last 12 months. But since there is nothing to do right now, shall we do it again, and deride the author once again with our moral outrage, frequently commenting on his presumed personal views on women"? You seem to be assuming this forum consists entirely of a cast that is unchanged in composition and conversation. I wasn't around for the earlier conversations, and I find this place very helpful in answering questions and raising thoughts as I read through the series with care. One of those questions/thoughts is inevitably Bakker and gender. It may be tiresome to you, but you really need not participate or pay attention. And since this is a rolling conversation, new people are implicitly invited to join, and you have to put up with us noobs. As for this business of his "presumed personal views on women"- this seems like a straw man. The criticisms of RSB are internal to his work, as they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themerchant Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 The criticisms of RSB are internal to his work, as they should be. As stated previously some of the criticism centered around there being a causation between the persons gender and who he addressed by name while appearing as his sock-puppet, which has nothing to do with the books, in fact one of the people moaning about it hadn't even read the book. they had just "heard" off other people. So how one can criticise Bakker while not having read his work, but still criticise internal to text, i do not know. that is of course not to say that all criticism has been internal to his work. Another criticism highlighted was someone satirising his online persona again nothing to do with his work. that's not to say that applies to yourself of course just giving a context to how some of these discussions have went(in the past) and why people might perceive things as they do, not trying to say these perceptions are true. Also since none of us have read The Unholy Consult yet, not sure how that could be internal to the text. Criticising him for what may happen. Pre-mediated attacks are in vogue in some dominant cultures though so what's obvious for them might just be weird to me for cultural differences. It just seems weird to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Cheers, Calibander. +1. Gaston, there are a core group of actors here who influence what is talked about and how it is talked about. I don't think Calibander was addressing the "noobs." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edda van Heefmstra Ruston Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Quick, someone do some metatextual analysis on the misandry engendered by Bakker's books! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Meh, the topics in this thread are an eternal recurrence, so I don't see why the criticisms of women in the books would be whining. We always go through the same topics over and over again, for better or worse. Plus Karaddin is a woman, so that particular rebuttal against the "male feminists" was rather amusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'm especially amused being criticized for our reaction to something madness posted. By madness! Heh. I'll work on that soon, eef. I have an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 You are Erratic. The last and only thing I can find I've posted that personally criticized anyone - the "you" was intended royally towards those who suggested that Serwa didn't have some kind of choice in response to Kellhus possibly giving her to the Nonmen to be a womb - was two pages ago: I find it uber hilarious that you all simply discount that Serwa might have a position here, as you know as a strong, independent woman... Like you expect her to just sit there and take it? Others are criti cizing you though for your reaction to something I posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 You plus ones calibandar, madness. I assume that means I agree. That's what it means elsewhere. What does it mean to you?I also used the royal form of you; I didn't take it as personal criticism, just your standard blanket condemnation of anyone who posts here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charerg Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I anticipate that eventually, Sorweel, Serwa, Achamian and Mimara will all end up in Golgotterath. After all, didn't Aurang say to the skin-spy following Mimara that "eventually, at least they will lead you home" or something like that? In any case, I think that in the end, all paths lead to Golgotterath. It would make very little sense if Serwa were to be marginalized as a simple "brood mare". She's just too valuable to Kellhus, who ultimately does not probably care of the survival of Nonmen (he even calls them "damned"), to be sacrificed as some sort of birthing machine. I think there's more going on with Kellhus' plans, though I guess we'll learn more of what it means to have Nonmen blood when Serwa and Co arrive in Isterebinth. Besides, Esmenet is hardly just a "magic womb" either, she plays a very important role in Kellhus' plans beyond just bearing his children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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