R + L = J v 71

[Kat]

PLEASE REPORT THE THREAD ONCE IT REACHES 400 POSTS. THANK YOU.

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

“R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

“R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

“R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

“R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

“R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

“R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

“R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

“R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

“R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

“R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

“R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

“R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

“R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

“R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v 67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v 68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v 69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v 70" (thread seventy)

[Lyse Stark]

Fred of Ashai's theory about Alys Karstark didn't make any sense, so I wouldn't be surprised if he is proven cartoonishly wrong. I would love to see his face when it turns out the blue rose on the Wall is actually Jon Snow, not her. And I think that the sweetness associated with that scene would be Jon fulfilling his prophesied role, and Dany wouldn't take it well.

[Alia of the knife]

I just don't get Karstark.

It's a cadet branch, and started by a younger Stark son, but I think any prophesy or vision would involve a more direct trajectory.

[J. Stargaryen]

I just don't get Karstark.

It's a cadet branch, and started by a younger Stark son, but I think any prophesy or vision would involve a more direct trajectory.

Exactly. It's just a desperate R+L=J denial. Nothing more.

[Lyse Stark]

Exactly. It's just a desperate R+L=J denial. Nothing more.

Indeed, R+L=J is gonna be confirmed if GRRM has anything to do with it.

[The God of Death]

Did we really need 71 versions of this?

R + L = J is a fact. The people who DON'T believe this are the same people who believe that humanity has never walked on the moon.

I'd rather speculate on the fate of Jon after the events of ADwD. Most people assume that Jon is not dead, but being stabbed brutally is obviously going to have some consequences. Assuming his spirit is safe within Ghost, where does he go from there? Is his old body salvageable?

It's much more interesting to discuss these points.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I just hate when people say its too obvious or cliche. I for one, didn't know exactly who couldve been jon's parents when I first read the books. It was only after a re-read when I started getting ideas. And, only after googling "who is jon snows parents", that I was brought to this wonderful forum. Then I was blown away by apple martini, j. Stargaryn and the countless others whom deciphered it so well. Also, after reading their theories, posts, etc....didn't most people feel kinda dumb for not getting it on their own? I think its denial that people come up with anything, no matter how little textual evidence they have, to try and prove it wrong. People, your in R+L=J DENIAL!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fred of Ashai]

Fred of Ashai's theory about Alys Karstark didn't make any sense, so I wouldn't be surprised if he is proven cartoonishly wrong. I would love to see his face when it turns out the blue rose on the Wall is actually Jon Snow, not her. And I think that the sweetness associated with that scene would be Jon fulfilling his prophesied role, and Dany wouldn't take it well.

Yes, men call me Fred, and I am of the Shadow.

Look, Rhaegar, Daemon Blackfyre, Jr. and Melisandre have all misread prophecies (Melisandre saw Alys and thought she was seeing someone else). If it turns out I am wrong I will be in good company, and I'll eat a slice of humble pie. If you are wrong, I will send you a slice.

Meanwhile, I have a serious question for you. On the last thread you said Jon has Rhaegar's temperament. I never picked up on that. The traits that stand out to me are Jon's melancholy and his out of control temper.

I thought the melancholy came from Ned (Ned tells us early in Game of Thrones that melancholy is a Stark trait). I thought the temper was "wolf blood." Brandon Stark had it (and it got him killed when he lost his temper at Rhaegar) and Arya displays it when she kills the Tickler.

Are there any specific aspects of Rhaegar's temperament you see in Jon?

[The God of Death]

Yes, men call me Fred, and I am of the Shadow.

I have a serious question for you. On the last thread you said Jon has Rhaegar's temperament. I never picked up on that. The traits that stand out to me are Jon's melancholy and his out of control temper.

I thought the melancholy came from Ned (Ned tells us early in Game of Thrones that melancholy is a Stark trait). I thought the temper was "wolf blood." Brandon Stark had it (and it got him killed when he lost his temper at Rhaegar) and Arya displays it when she kills the Tickler.

Are there any specific aspects of Rhaegar's temperament you see in Jon?

Sorry for not responding to your question directly - but what does it matter?

The evidence for Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is far too overwhelming. Showing that Jon is more like Rhaegar as opposed to Brandon Stark is irrelevant.

Even if Jon was more like Brandon Stark than Rhaegar Targaryen, what of it? Either way, Jon is half-Stark. Brandon would still be his Uncle. Brandon and Lyanna are brother and sister. They had the same parents. They are of the same blood. So if Jon had some characteristics similar to his uncle, why would this be surprising?

Just to reiterate, the point of whether Jon has a temperament more similar to Rhaegar's or Brandon's is completely irrelevant to this discussion, as it doesn't prove anything either way.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Sorry for not responding to your question directly - but what does it matter?

The evidence for Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is far too overwhelming. Showing that Jon is more like Rhaegar as opposed to Brandon Stark is irrelevant.

Even if Jon was more like Brandon Stark than Rhaegar Targaryen, what of it? Either way, Jon is half-Stark. Brandon would still be his Uncle. Brandon and Lyanna are brother and sister. They had the same parents. They are of the same blood. So if Jon had some characteristics similar to his Uncle, why would this be surprising?

Just to reiterate, the point of whether Jon has a temperament more similar to Rhaegar's or Brandon's is completely irrelevant to this discussion, as it doesn't prove anything either way.

Actually when you come right down to it Ned was a bit of an odd ball in his behavior, Jon acting like Brandon would show his wolf blood more truly,& show that he is his MOTHER'S son. :nod:

[Fred of Ashai]

Sorry for not responding to your question directly - but what does it matter?

The evidence for Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is far too overwhelming. Showing that Jon is more like Rhaegar as opposed to Brandon Stark is irrelevant.

Even if Jon was more like Brandon Stark than Rhaegar Targaryen, what of it? Either way, Jon is half-Stark. Brandon would still be his Uncle. Brandon and Lyanna are brother and sister. They had the same parents. They are of the same blood. So if Jon had some characteristics similar to his uncle, why would this be surprising?

Just to reiterate, the point of whether Jon has a temperament more similar to Rhaegar's or Brandon's is completely irrelevant to this discussion, as it doesn't prove anything either way.

I never really thought about this much before. I was just curious about what Lyse has seen of Rhaegar's temperament that I may have missed.

And I thought I would change the subject. The discussion of the blue rose has run its course and I can agree to disagree with the posters who don't agree with me.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Did we really need 71 versions of this?

R + L = J is a fact. The people who DON'T believe this are the same people who believe that humanity has never walked on the moon.

I'd rather speculate on the fate of Jon after the events of ADwD. Most people assume that Jon is not dead, but being stabbed brutally is obviously going to have some consequences. Assuming his spirit is safe within Ghost, where does he go from there? Is his old body salvageable?

It's much more interesting to discuss these points.

Until we have textual confirmation, there will always be those are unconvinced, which is their prerogative. But the fact is that there are still new readers who want to discuss RLJ, regulars who don't mind discussing it with noobs, and plenty of fresh material is always being excavated by those regulars for discussion.

But... if you want a discussion of Jon Snow's Fate, try here.

[Lyse Stark]

Yes, men call me Fred, and I am of the Shadow.

Look, Rhaegar, Daemon Blackfyre, Jr. and Melisandre have all misread prophecies (Melisandre saw Alys and thought she was seeing someone else). If it turns out I am wrong I will be in good company, and I'll eat a slice of humble pie. If you are wrong, I will send you a slice.

Meanwhile, I have a serious question for you. On the last thread you said Jon has Rhaegar's temperament. I never picked up on that. The traits that stand out to me are Jon's melancholy and his out of control temper.

I thought the melancholy came from Ned (Ned tells us early in Game of Thrones that melancholy is a Stark trait). I thought the temper was "wolf blood." Brandon Stark had it (and it got him killed when he lost his temper at Rhaegar) and Arya displays it when she kills the Tickler.

Are there any specific aspects of Rhaegar's temperament you see in Jon?

I think Rhaegar's melancholia was passed on to Jon, although where Rhaegar was not brooding, Jon was. He also resembles Aegon the Conqueror in that he is a solitary person who didn't take part in tournaments and only picked up a sword when it was needed, only leaving political affairs to his sisters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Did we really need 71 versions of this?

R + L = J is a fact. The people who DON'T believe this are the same people who believe that humanity has never walked on the moon.

I'd rather speculate on the fate of Jon after the events of ADwD. Most people assume that Jon is not dead, but being stabbed brutally is obviously going to have some consequences. Assuming his spirit is safe within Ghost, where does he go from there? Is his old body salvageable?

It's much more interesting to discuss these points.

There are basically three types of discussions in these threads now.

1. People who are unfamiliar with the theory and genuinely want to discuss it.

2. People who accept the theory as true and want to discuss what further implications it can have in the story.

3. People who don't believe it and/or don't want to believe it and as a result come up with increasingly grasping excuses to dismiss it.

[Fred of Ashai]

I think Rhaegar's melancholia was passed on to Jon, although where Rhaegar was not brooding, Jon was. He also resembles Aegon the Conqueror in that he is a solitary person who didn't take part in tournaments and only picked up a sword when it was needed, only leaving political affairs to his sisters.

Okay. I missed the references to Rhaegar being melancholy. The reference to melancholy that stood out for me was this from Ned:

Robert looked off into the darkness, for a moment as melancholy as a Stark.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had that in common it could explain why he was attracted to her (although it doesn't tell us anything about who Jon's father was, since he could have this trait from either Ned, Rhaegar, or Lyanna).

Your reference to not picking up a sword unless it was needed reminds me of Robb waving his sword around in Bran's bedroom and having Ser Rodrik telling him to put it away:

Never draw your sword unless you mean to use it. How many times must I tell you, foolish boy?

Keeping your sword in its sheath doesn't appear to be a Stark trait.

[The God of Death]

Until we have textual confirmation, there will always be those are unconvinced, which is their prerogative. But the fact is that there are still new readers who want to discuss RLJ, regulars who don't mind discussing it with noobs, and plenty of fresh material is always being excavated by those regulars for discussion.

But... if you want a discussion of Jon Snow's Fate, try here.

Yeah, of course I agree this thread should exist - as there will always be new readers, and this will forever be a 'new' discovery for many people. When I first finished reading the books and then discovered these forums, I discovered the theory, then I looked into the evidence and immediately realized there was no doubt that the 'theory' was the truth. Unlike some people. I immediately accepted the theory once I read the evidence for... but I certainly wanted to discuss it!

I'm just articulating the sentiment of what happens when you actually examine the evidence for R+L=J and then apply your brain.

I know there will always be people who want to argue against it, but really, once you 'graduate' you realize that the evidence for the 'theory' is so overwhelming that you learn to accept it as 100% fact... and then you move onto thinking about the implications of R+L=J, as opposed to merely trying to figure out if it's actually true.

[Ser Creighton]

Fred of Ashai's theory about Alys Karstark didn't make any sense, so I wouldn't be surprised if he is proven cartoonishly wrong. I would love to see his face when it turns out the blue rose on the Wall is actually Jon Snow, not her. And I think that the sweetness associated with that scene would be Jon fulfilling his prophesied role, and Dany wouldn't take it well.

You know I think we all make mistakes with theories, I had one of the biggest mistakes on this board with a very popular theory. Seemed right at the time. I don't think anyone needs to be beat up about their interpretation, the books are subjective to the individual in many ways.

I don't doubt Jon's connection to the blue rose, though I don't make the connection that this will make Dany upset. The passage "A blew flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness." This is the third prophecy in the third trio of the Mother of Dragons prophecy. Followed by "Mother of Dragons bride of fire."

The first trio is about Viserys, what appears to be Rhaego, and Rhaegar. Mother of Dragons, daughter of death.

Then you have the 3 for the "Mother of Dragons, slayer of lies."

Finally the last trio, Mother of Dragon, bride of fire. Nothing in the vision of the blue rose seems to upset her rather the opposite. Sweetness, bride. She is also suppose to drink from the cup of ice and drink from the cup of fire. And the final in all three trios of the 3 fires prophecy are all about love.

I don't really get the supposed Jon and Dany war speculation, unless he is a Wight or something. There does not appear to be much actual text evidence that Dany and Jon will come into conflict. Her own vision is one of the biggest pieces of evidence to R+L=J The blue rose, literally may be the most critical piece of evidence to who Jon is and Martin gave it to you Via Dany, and Dany liked the way it smelled. In fact in terms of Jon's father most of the information about Rhaegar is found in Dany's chapters as well. They don't have a conflict, as of book 5 they have a connection. There is no sign of conflict with the blue rose vision.

[Lyse Stark]

You know I think we all make mistakes with theories, I had one of the biggest mistakes on this board with a very popular theory. Seemed right at the time. I don't think anyone needs to be beat up about their interpretation, the books are subjective to the individual in many ways.

I don't doubt Jon's connection to the blue rose, though I don't make the connection that this will make Dany upset. The passage "A blew flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness." This is the third prophecy in the third trio of the Mother of Dragons prophecy. Followed by "Mother of Dragons bride of fire."

The first trio is about Viserys, what appears to be Rhaego, and Rhaegar. Mother of Dragons, daughter of death.

Then you have the 3 for the "Mother of Dragons, slayer of lies."

Finally the last trio, Mother of Dragon, bride of fire. Nothing in the vision of the blue rose seems to upset her rather the opposite. Sweetness, bride. She is also suppose to drink from the cup of ice and drink from the cup of fire. And the final in all three trios of the 3 fires prophecy are all about love.

I don't really get the supposed Jon and Dany war speculation, unless he is a Wight or something. There does not appear to be much actual text evidence that Dany and Jon will come into conflict. Her own vision is one of the biggest pieces of evidence to R+L=J The blue rose, literally may be the most critical piece of evidence to who Jon is and Martin gave it to you Via Dany, and Dany liked the way it smelled. In fact in terms of Jon's father most of the information about Rhaegar is found in Dany's chapters as well. They don't have a conflict, as of book 5 they have a connection. There is no sign of conflict with the blue rose vision.

You need to remember that in Dany's arc, sweetness is a negative. And the fact that the blue rose smells sweet can be negative in that if the truth comes out, she will be one on the losing side. And the conflict that will be embodied there is that one of them is not the true Azor Ahai reborn; Dany will learn the hard way, as will her supporters.

[Fred of Ashai]

You know I think we all make mistakes with theories, I had one of the biggest mistakes on this board with a very popular theory. Seemed right at the time. I don't think anyone needs to be beat up about their interpretation, the books are subjective to the individual in many ways.

I don't doubt Jon's connection to the blue rose, though I don't make the connection that this will make Dany upset. The passage "A blew flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness." This is the third prophecy in the third trio of the Mother of Dragons prophecy. Followed by "Mother of Dragons bride of fire."

The first trio is about Viserys, what appears to be Rhaego, and Rhaegar. Mother of Dragons, daughter of death.

Then you have the 3 for the "Mother of Dragons, slayer of lies."

Finally the last trio, Mother of Dragon, bride of fire. Nothing in the vision of the blue rose seems to upset her rather the opposite. Sweetness, bride. She is also suppose to drink from the cup of ice and drink from the cup of fire. And the final in all three trios of the 3 fires prophecy are all about love.

I don't really get the supposed Jon and Dany war speculation, unless he is a Wight or something. There does not appear to be much actual text evidence that Dany and Jon will come into conflict. Her own vision is one of the biggest pieces of evidence to R+L=J The blue rose, literally may be the most critical piece of evidence to who Jon is and Martin gave it to you Via Dany, and Dany liked the way it smelled. In fact in terms of Jon's father most of the information about Rhaegar is found in Dany's chapters as well. They don't have a conflict, as of book 5 they have a connection. There is no sign of conflict with the blue rose vision.

Don't overestimate the importance of the blue rose to the R+L=J theory. After I read Game of Thrones for the first time, before Clash of Kings came out, I used to argue in favor of R+L=J based on the bloody bed and the conflicting stories about who was Jon's mother.

(That was before I was persuaded that the mysterious death of Ashara Dayne must be important and it wasn't explained by R+L=J. So I now I buy into the theory that Lyanna's son or daughter was whisked to safety, probably in Essos, by Ashara.)

[Lyse Stark]

Don't overestimate the importance of the blue rose to the R+L=J theory. After I read Game of Thrones for the first time, before Clash of Kings came out, I used to argue in favor of R+L=J based on the bloody bed and the conflicting stories about who was Jon's mother.

Ultimately, I was persuaded that the mysterious death of Ashara Dayne must be important and it wasn't explained by R+L=J. So I now I buy into the theory that Lyanna's son or daughter was whisked to safety, probably in Essos, by Ashara.

I scoff at your idea. I actually think Ashara Dayne is dead. She committed suicide, and I wouldn't be surprised if her body was washed out to sea, just like Harold Holt's was in 1967.