R + L = J v 71

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. ;)

I honestly do not remember that line, but thanks.

[TheCoffeeThatWasPromised]

This is totally random and has no real bearing on anything, but it could have been Edric's mother who ruled Starfall in her own right and was Ashara, Arthur and Allyria's sister. We all seem to assume it was his father (including me, and it could have been), but by Dornish law, could've been a lady mother.

I want to be 100% sure she isn't Lemore, because it could undermine what GRRM has written about both women. But it's always a possibility.

If Ashara is Septa Lemore, how would she have gotten away and would she know the truth about what happened in the ToJ?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Ashara is Septa Lemore, how would she have gotten away and would she know the truth about what happened in the ToJ?

You're preaching to the choir. I don't think Ashara is Lemore. I leave open the possibility that she is, but I don't really believe it and I won't answer questions as if I do believe it.

[Lyse Stark]

I'm 100% sure she isn't Lemore. H+A+M&J is a favorite of mine as well. I think if she had committed suicide her brother, Edric's father, would have made an effort to recover the body and giver her a proper burial as she was still his sister, and they would have rushed to do it after the moment she jumped off.

Not if Starfall was on a coastline cliff that had strong undercurrents. These usually are dangerous and in my province, we have a lake where many people drowned there because that lake had that type of undercurrent.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not if Starfall was on a coastline cliff that had strong undercurrents. These usually are dangerous and in my province, we have a lake where many people drowned there because that lake had that type of undercurrent.

I agree with you that in real life not finding a body does not in any way imply that a person is alive. However, in fiction, particularly this fiction, not finding a body more often than not implies that a person is "out there" somewhere. There's a reason so many people are skeptical of deaths in the books unless a corpse is shown.

[Fred of Ashai]

If Ashara is Septa Lemore, how would she have gotten away and would she know the truth about what happened in the ToJ?

Here is the scenario. Ned lifts the siege of Storm's End and goes to Starfall to see his old lover, Ashara. She says, look at this beautiful baby I had, he looks just like you. Now let's get married as we discussed. You might want to check out the Tower of Joy, because you sister is there. Ned says, let's call him Jon, I will be back soon ps, I can't marry you I had to marry this lady from the Riverlands.

Then Ned comes back from the Tower of Joy with Lyanna's purple-eyed baby and says what are we to do? Ashara says, there is nothing for it but that I take the one that looks like me and you take the one that looks like you. Ned says there is no way we can keep Lyanna's baby in Westeros. I will help you fake your death and arrange for you to get to Essos. I know I will live a lie for the rest of my life but I promised Lyanna I would send her child out of Robert's reach and that can only be done by getting him (or her) out of Westeros.

I will also have to make sure your name is never mentioned in Winterfell so Jon doesn't come looking for you when he is older. Otherwise, that could endanger Lyanna's little baby.

[Fire Eater]

Here is the scenario. Ned lifts the siege of Storm's End and goes to Starfall to see his old lover, Ashara. She says, look at this beautiful baby I had, he looks just like you. Now let's get married as we discussed. You might want to check out the Tower of Joy, because you sister is there. Ned says, let's call him Jon, I will be back soon ps, I can't marry you I had to marry this lady from the Riverlands.

Then Ned comes back from the Tower of Joy with Lyanna's purple-eyed baby and says what are we to do? Ashara says, there is nothing for it but that I take the one that looks like me and you take the one that looks like you. Ned says there is no way we can keep Lyanna's baby in Westeros. I will help you fake your death and arrange for you to get to Essos. I know I will live a lie for the rest of my life but I promised Lyanna I would send her child out of Robert's reach and that can only be done by getting him (or her) out of Westeros.

The problem with that is why would Varys and Illyrio lie about the boy being Aegon then? Why would Ned contact Varys for this, a man he clearly doesn't trust in AGoT?

Ned promised he would protect Lyanna's child, and I doubt he would let the boy out of his sight.

That is without mentioning why he would visit a woman he met only once at Harrenhal rather than trying to rescue his sister? That would be a level of selfishness Ned doesn't possess.

[Fred of Ashai]

The problem with that is why would Varys and Illyrio lie about the boy being Aegon then? Why would Ned contact Varys for this, a man he clearly doesn't trust in AGoT?

Ned promised he would protect Lyanna's child, and I doubt he would let the boy out of his sight.

That is without mentioning why he would visit a woman he met only once at Harrenhal rather than trying to rescue his sister? That would be a level of selfishness Ned doesn't possess.

Yeah, this is the issue with having a theory about Ashara for 15 years and then seeing Martin unmask her, in Dance with Dragons, in a way I didn't expect. I was expecting Ashara to show up with a kid she said was Rhaegar and Lyanna's. Instead she showed up with a kid she claims is Rhaegar and Elia's.

I ascribe this to three things. First, Ned cut off all contact with Ashara after she fled. She looked for support to her old friend Varys when she ran out of money, and Varys hooked her up with Illyro and Connignton -- Ned knew nothing about this.

Second, she, Varys and Illyrio thought it would be easier to pass the boy off as Rhaegar and Elia's, since everyone knew Rhaegar had a son by Elia.

Third, Ashara knew Ned could never support Lyanna's son's claim to the throne against Robert, but Doran might support Elia's son's claim.

[Fred of Ashai]

Now, now. He has the right to give his theories. Even if they don't make that much sense.

Merci. Let's all be friends, even when we disagree.

That includes you, Lyse Stark -- I enjoy reading your posts.

[Fire Eater]

I ascribe this to three things. First, Ned cut off all contact with Ashara after she fled. She looked for support to her old friend Varys when she ran out of money, and Varys hooked her up with Illyro and Connignton -- Ned knew nothing about this.

Second, she, Varys and Illyrio thought it would be easier to pass the boy off as Rhaegar and Elia's, since everyone knew Rhaegar had a son by Elia.

Third, Ashara knew Ned could never support Lyanna's son's claim to the throne against Robert, but Doran might support Elia's son's claim.

1. Cutting off contact with Lyanna's son, and leaving him no support would have broken his promise to Lyanna. That would be out of character for Ned. Plus, why would GRRM have mystery surrounding Jon's parentage if it isn't going to impact the story somehow? The clues point strongly towards Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

2. Aegon being Lyanna's son contributes little to the story, and the clues strongly suggest he is a Blackfyre. Illyrio and Varys would have been better off with the truth, and believing he is Rhaegar's trueborn son is better than a boy who everyone saw was presented to Robert in a red cloak.

3. Doran supported the Targaryens regardless, as he would never join the Baratheons after what happened to Elia and her children. Lyanna's son would be his chance at revenge. As for Ned, he still intended to protect the boy.

I'm sorry, but I think your theory is full of holes and lacks any textual evidence.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. Cutting off contact with Lyanna's son, and leaving him no support would have broken his promise to Lyanna. That would be out of character for Ned. Plus, why would GRRM have mystery surrounding Jon's parentage if it isn't going to impact the story somehow? The clues point strongly towards Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

Agreed. I think a huge part of Ned's promise was that he was to raise Jon and keep an eye on him himself. Which is why Jon was kept at Winterfell and raised with the Stark children. It was considered odd, but it's not odd at all if you think about what Ned probably promised Lyanna. Whereas Ned sending his nephew off and having virtually no contact with him at all makes absolutely no sense given Ned's character and emphasis on his family. It also doesn't make sense in that situation, if Jon's mother is Ashara, to not tell him so.

There's also, of course, absolute zilch in the story that connects Varys and Ashara in any way, let alone that suggests they're "old friends."

[Fred of Ashai]

Agreed. I think a huge part of Ned's promise was that he was to raise Jon and keep an eye on him himself. Which is why Jon was kept at Winterfell and raised with the Stark children. It was considered odd, but it's not odd at all if you think about what Ned probably promised Lyanna. Whereas Ned sending his nephew off and having virtually no contact with him at all makes absolutely no sense given Ned's character and emphasis on his family. It also doesn't make sense in that situation, if Jon's mother is Ashara, to not tell him so.

There's also, of course, absolute zilch in the story that connects Varys and Ashara in any way, let alone that suggests they're "old friends."

I think you are assuming that Ned's promise was to take personal care of Lyanna's baby when it could have been more general (keep it safe from Robert, or get it out of Robert's reach) or more specific (take it back to Winterfell and pretend it is your bastard).

The connection between Varys and Ashara is that she was Elia's lady in waiting when Varys was on the Small Council. And master of whispers. And he consequently knew everything about her.

[The Merry Other]

Another theory is that Ned asks Howland Reed to take Lyanna's baby beyond the Wall, far away from Robert. With Benjen's help HR and the baby go to the wildlings and live with them. There are a few possibilities from here. The baby may be kidnapped by the Others and raised to become their commander. He is the song of ice (Others) and fire (Targaryens). The Others representing Ice makes more sense than a Stark (Lyanna). The blue flower at the Wall in Dany's vision may refer to him when he comes to the Wall. Sure, there's the question of why there're no hints/clues of him after 5 books but the Others are supposed to be important and mysterious at the same time. We will only start to know more about them in the next book. Incidentally, this theory also explains HR's mysterious disappearance nicely

Or the baby may be adopted by the Magnar of Thenn and become Sigorn, who later comes to the Wall, marries Alys Karstark and starts House Thenn

[Ser Creighton]

Lysa I am not even going to get into the significance of the Blue winter rose, it's enough to say that even with theories the Rose was the unifying factor that essentially proofed R+L=J.

As for Ashara I am probably the only person who hopes Ned tossed her off the Pale Sword tower. Nothing against Ashara but at least give me a reason for Emo Ned. Oh tis must hate yon self for evil lie to protect prince nephew. Twas evil of me and I must hateith most forlorn self with a passion. If Martins going to be dark then that works for me.

Oh Ned my love at long last you have come to me, here atop the Pale sword, let us embrace.

Yes, yes run to me oh she who knows to much, here where I standith nearith the edge. (Side step... Splash!)

Ooops.

Dear sister what has happened Ned?

Boo, hoo, boo hoo, she, she could not live without her brother, yes that's it. I tried to stop her but she jumped, here is your sword, later.

Hey Howland.

Ned how did it go, will Ashara keep quite?

Ummm she jumped off the pale sword.

No, seriously?

Yep couldn't stop her.

Seriously your like a 200 pound warrior with excellent reflexes how could this happen?

It happened.

Seriously Ned you can tell me we are bros.

Seriously I suggest you stay in your swamp... permanently.

Ok then.

As for the promise I don't think Ashara needed to say all that much, she would know her brother. It would also make for a terrible death seen. Promise number 15, Ned are you writing these down. Yes Lyanna. Are you really or are you just saying that? Cause I am dying here Ned. Yeah so you keep saying. Ned Promise me you will bury a ruby with me. Fine. And a wedding cloak. Fine. And tell Robert he is a dick. Ok, And name my child Aerys Targaryen after Rhaegars daddy. ... Also never tell Cat. Ok. And tell him all about me. Ok. And I want him to have a dragon. Alright. Make sure he learns to say Blood of the Dragon. Really Lya? Seriously? Seriously I have lost a shit ton of blood, I am delusional and in intense pain, now STFU and promise me so I can die happy ass wipe. Fine I promise. I want his middle names to be Jaime, Gregor, Tywin. Oh now, what the hell Lya, that's it, I am so done, that's... Your totally fuckin with me? Well I am dying but I didn't want you to feel bad, you get all broody and Emo. Take care of my kid. Promise.

She could of had Ned promise her whatever, but that was the last remnant of his beloved sister, Jon was not going anywhere to far from Ned for a long time. He is literally the last connection to one of the most important people in his life.

[Grape Jackanape]

Just to play devil's advocate here, I've tried to come up w a smoking gun that would disprove R+L=J once & for all, & I think I've got it: Jon is a teenager, & yet he's only obnoxious a few times, & not constantly. Logic dictates that this means he is a poorly programmed android, with a faulty teenager behavioral chip & thus not human. Boom.

[Ygrain]

Just to play devil's advocate here, I've tried to come up w a smoking gun that would disprove R+L=J once & for all, & I think I've got it: Jon is a teenager, & yet he's only obnoxious a few times, & not constantly. Logic dictates that this means he is a poorly programmed android, with a faulty teenager behavioral chip & thus not human. Boom.

That's because we're not in his head constantly but only a few times. Busted :P

Another theory is that Ned asks Howland Reed to take Lyanna's baby beyond the Wall, far away from Robert. With Benjen's help HR and the baby go to the wildlings and live with them. There are a few possibilities from here. The baby may be kidnapped by the Others and raised to become their commander. He is the song of ice (Others) and fire (Targaryens). The Others representing Ice makes more sense than a Stark (Lyanna). The blue flower at the Wall in Dany's vision may refer to him when he comes to the Wall. Sure, there's the question of why there're no hints/clues of him after 5 books but the Others are supposed to be important and mysterious at the same time. We will only start to know more about them in the next book. Incidentally, this theory also explains HR's mysterious disappearance nicely

Or the baby may be adopted by the Magnar of Thenn and become Sigorn, who later comes to the Wall, marries Alys Karstark and starts House Thenn

Does this theory have anything in a way of textual support, other than the existence of the mentioned characters?

And BTW, I don't recall Meera and Jojen saying that their father disappeared, instead they say that he asent them to renew the oaths of fealty: "My lord father has sent us here to say the words again, for all our people."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Another theory is that Ned asks Howland Reed to take Lyanna's baby beyond the Wall, far away from Robert. With Benjen's help HR and the baby go to the wildlings and live with them. There are a few possibilities from here. The baby may be kidnapped by the Others and raised to become their commander. He is the song of ice (Others) and fire (Targaryens). The Others representing Ice makes more sense than a Stark (Lyanna). The blue flower at the Wall in Dany's vision may refer to him when he comes to the Wall. Sure, there's the question of why there're no hints/clues of him after 5 books but the Others are supposed to be important and mysterious at the same time. We will only start to know more about them in the next book. Incidentally, this theory also explains HR's mysterious disappearance nicely

Or the baby may be adopted by the Magnar of Thenn and become Sigorn, who later comes to the Wall, marries Alys Karstark and starts House Thenn

You people are making this substantially more complicated than it is or needs to be.

[The Merry Other]

Does this theory have anything in a way of textual support, other than the existence of the mentioned characters?

Of course not, but it still fits in with all the clues/hints as well as RLJ. Look, the whole R+L=J theory is based on the premise that 1) Jon's mother cannot be Wylla or Ashara, so it must be Lyanna, 2) it fits in with all the hints/clues in the books (Ned's trouble conscience, guilt, blue flower, etc). Find me one textual evidence that Jon = Lyanna's baby and I am happy. Textual evidence please, not "it can't be Wylla or Ashara, so it must be Lyanna" or "if Jon's mother isn't Lyanna, who is it then?". Quotes from the books would be much appreciated. Thanks

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Of course not, but it still fits in with all the clues/hints as well as RLJ. Look, the whole R+L=J theory is based on the premise that 1) Jon's mother cannot be Wylla or Ashara, so it must be Lyanna, 2) it fits in with all the hints/clues in the books (Ned's trouble conscience, guilt, blue flower, etc). Find me one textual evidence that Jon = Lyanna's baby and I am happy. Textual evidence please, not "it can't be Wylla or Ashara, so it must be Lyanna" or "if Jon's mother isn't Lyanna, who is it then?". Quotes from the books would be much appreciated. Thanks

You must have missed the FAQ list on the first page. It's very helpful reading.

ETA: The Tower of the Hand essay is actually my favorite: http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

[Ygrain]

Of course not, but it still fits in with all the clues/hints as well as RLJ. Look, the whole R+L=J theory is based on the premise that 1) Jon's mother cannot be Wylla or Ashara, so it must be Lyanna, 2) it fits in with all the hints/clues in the books (Ned's trouble conscience, guilt, blue flower, etc). Find me one textual evidence that Jon = Lyanna's baby and I am happy. Textual evidence please, not "it can't be Wylla or Ashara, so it must be Lyanna" or "if Jon's mother isn't Lyanna, who is it then?". Quotes from the books would be much appreciated. Thanks

The words clues/hints do not mean what you think, I'm afraid. Can you explain how Ned has been living lies if Lyanna's child is somewhere beyond the Wall and he hasn't seen him/her in all those years? Why not tell Jon who his mother is if it's just Ashara/Wylla/FMD? Why take him away from his mother at such a tender age at all? Etc. Etc. Etc. Once again, I suggest that youdo your reading, e.g. the essay that Apple Martini linked. You might also recall what I have told you already: this is not RL, with unlimited number of candidates for Jon's mother, but a piece of literature. There are exactly three candidates for Jon's mother, none of which fits the timeline and none of which ever enters Ned's thoughts. That as well is a clue.