Theon's Dreams in Winterfell

[Mithras]

She [Kyra] came to him wet and eager and lithe as a weasel, and there had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark’s own bed.

That bed will be a messenger of the old gods. While sleeping in that bed, Theon will have prophetic and hideous dreams, with great foreshadowing to his crime that enraged the old gods and his punishment upon Ramsay’s hands.

The sky was a gloom of cloud, the woods dead and frozen. Roots grabbed at Theon’s feet as he ran, and bare branches lashed his face, leaving thin stripes of blood across his cheeks. He crashed through heedless, breathless, icicles flying to pieces before him. Mercy, he sobbed. From behind came a shuddering howl that curdled his blood. Mercy, mercy. When he glanced back over his shoulder he saw them coming, great wolves the size of horses with the heads of small children. Oh, mercy, mercy. Blood dripped from their mouths black as pitch, burning holes in the snow where it fell. Every stride brought them closer. Theon tried to run faster, but his legs would not obey. The trees all had faces, and they were laughing at him, laughing, and the howl came again. He could smell the hot breath of the beasts behind him, a stink of brimstone and corruption. They’re dead, dead, I saw them killed, he tried to shout, I saw their heads dipped in tar, but when he opened his mouth only a moan emerged, and then something touched him and he whirled, shouting…

All his dreams had been cold of late, and each more hideous than the one before. Last night he had dreamed himself back in the mill again, on his knees dressing the dead. Their limbs were already stiffening, so they seemed to resist sullenly as he fumbled at them with half-frozen fingers, tugging up breeches and knotting laces, yanking fur-trimmed boots over hard unbending feet, buckling a studded leather belt around a waist no bigger than the span of his hands. “This was never what I wanted,” he told them as he worked. “They gave me no choice.” The corpses made no answer, but only grew colder and heavier.

The night before, it had been the miller’s wife. Theon had forgotten her name, but he remembered her body, soft pillowy breasts and stretch marks on her belly, the way she clawed his back when he fucked her. Last night in his dream he had been in bed with her once again, but this time she had teeth above and below, and she tore out his throat even as she was gnawing off his manhood.

These are the dreams of Theon. If we read carefully, we can arrange them in a chronological order.

Dream Number 1

The night before, it had been the miller’s wife. Theon had forgotten her name, but he remembered her body, soft pillowy breasts and stretch marks on her belly, the way she clawed his back when he fucked her.

This dream reminds Theon of the miller’s wife. I think the old gods are trying to say “Remember the woman you fucked while ago?”

Dream Number 2

Last night he had dreamed himself back in the mill again, on his knees dressing the dead. Their limbs were already stiffening, so they seemed to resist sullenly as he fumbled at them with half-frozen fingers, tugging up breeches and knotting laces, yanking fur-trimmed boots over hard unbending feet, buckling a studded leather belt around a waist no bigger than the span of his hands. “This was never what I wanted,” he told them as he worked. “They gave me no choice.” The corpses made no answer, but only grew colder and heavier.

Now the old gods are saying “The younger boy you killed was actually your son. You became a kinslayer asshole and you will pay for it. We will have our due.”

Dream Number 3

Last night in his dream he had been in bed with her once again, but this time she had teeth above and below, and she tore out his throat even as she was gnawing off his manhood.

This dream is a foreshadowing for Theon’s castration. It is a very fitting punishment for a guy like Theon, who banged women carelessly and killed his own blood.

Dream Number 4

The sky was a gloom of cloud, the woods dead and frozen. Roots grabbed at Theon’s feet as he ran, and bare branches lashed his face, leaving thin stripes of blood across his cheeks. He crashed through heedless, breathless, icicles flying to pieces before him. Mercy, he sobbed. From behind came a shuddering howl that curdled his blood. Mercy, mercy. When he glanced back over his shoulder he saw them coming, great wolves the size of horses with the heads of small children. Oh, mercy, mercy. Blood dripped from their mouths black as pitch, burning holes in the snow where it fell. Every stride brought them closer. Theon tried to run faster, but his legs would not obey. The trees all had faces, and they were laughing at him, laughing, and the howl came again. He could smell the hot breath of the beasts behind him, a stink of brimstone and corruption. They’re dead, dead, I saw them killed, he tried to shout, I saw their heads dipped in tar, but when he opened his mouth only a moan emerged, and then something touched him and he whirled, shouting…

This one foreshadows how Theon and Kyra will be hunted by Ramsay and his bitches. Note that the bitches have the names of the girls who had given Ramsay a good sport. So in a way, the girls are resurrected as the bitches, which explain the wolves with the faces of the dead children. The trees (old gods) are mocking him. Next day, Theon will be captured by Ramsay and Reekification process will start.

Dream Number 5

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time… until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon’s last dream was the Feast of the Dead. The corpse (or rather the ghost) of Robb came walking out of the night. Theon will be eventually purified from his sins, die and take his place at the Feast of the Dead.

BONUS

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. “Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer.”

“I’m not. I never … I was ironborn.”

“False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?”

“The gods are not done with me,” Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick’s cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell’s groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. “Lord Ramsay is not done with me.”

The man looked, and laughed. “I leave you to him, then.”

Theon's left hand had three fingers, his right four.

See the pattern? Theon shows his left hand only and says the gods are not done with him. The Hooded Man (or the night walker as Theon called) looks at him and sees the guy has 8 fingers so he laughs and leaves him to Ramsay to finish what he started. I think that is a strong evidence for HM=Chayle theory. Septon Chayle assumed Theon got 8 fingers, 1 more from the holy number seven, so he left him for Ramsay. All the people at the Feast were known dead to Theon. Robb came and Theon called him a night walker too. So he is consistent about calling Septon Chayle as a night walker.

He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return.

Jory was dead, and Fat Tom, and Porther, Alyn, Desmond, Hullen who had been master of horse, Harwin his son… all those who had gone south with his father, even Septa Mordane and Vayon Poole.

Bran used almost the same expression and gave us a more detailed list of the people who went south with Ned and are now thought to be dead. There is no reason to object to the idea that Theon's dream includes all the people went to the south with Ned, even the ones he didn’t name. But we know that Harwin (who was specifically named in Ban's list) is actually not dead and that is why we cannot take for granted that all the people in Theon's dream should be necessarily dead. This means Septon Chayle may well be alive.

[kiasyd]

Neat organization of Theon's dreams - I agree with your premise that these dreams are prophetic, foreshadowings and warnings, However, I disagree with some of your conclusions:

• Hooded Man == Chayle: In dream #5, Chayle is specially noted and as you put it, and this would make him the only one alive person in this dream, besides Theon himself. I also think that the night walker and walking out of the night instances are incidental.
  
• Dream #4: It's a nice congruence with him being hunted later, but his pursuers here are direwolves with children's faces - he is clearly projecting his gilt on the miller's sons and Bran & Rickon into this dream and at the same time foreshadowing the skinchanging aspect of the Stark Children. It also works as a clue to the fact that the Stark kids are not really dead, which will be revealed later on.
  

[Vaxis]

I personally don't think the Hooded Man is Chayle, but to each his own. I also do not think the Millers sons were actually Theons, largely because one of them was too old for Theon to have fathered. But overall, this was a good read and the first thread I have seen on Theons prophetic dreams. Thanks for putting it together.

[Mithras]

Thanks for the replies. I think only the younger boy should be Theon's. Oberyn fathered his first Sand Snake (Obara) at 13. Oberyn likes to shag, so does Theon. We also know that even an unintended kinslaying is punished by the gods. Chayle being dead in the dream does not mean he is dead. Theon thinks him dead, just like he thinks all the people rode to south are dead. They are all in the dream too but we know that Harwin is still alive. That means the people at the dream are not dead yet. Besides Robb was not dead back than when Theon saw this dream. Hallis Mollen with Ned's bones is not dead either.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't get how that dream implies that the miller's sons were Theon's, or one of them.

I also don't think Chayle is the hooded man. You have to explain how he GOT OUT of the well.

And I think Chayle at the dead feast is evidence enough. Remember that Robb ARRIVES at the feast, he isn't already there. Foreshadowing that he WILL die, not that he HAS. Meanwhile Chayle is already at the feast because he's already dead.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

We also know that even an unintended kinslaying is punished by the gods.

Sorry but this is bs. We have no real indication that kinslaying is punished by any gods.

Or please explain why Theon is punished so horribly for killing one son when Craster gets a quick death though he sacrifices dozens of his sons?

Also no indication that Maekar was punished for his unintended kinslaying.

Maybe Theon is being "punished" by Ramsay because Ramsay is a sick and fucked up bastard? Why include the old gods into it?

[kiasyd]

Thanks for the replies. I think only the younger boy should be Theon's. Oberyn fathered his first Sand Snake (Obara) at 13. Oberyn likes to shag, so does Theon. We also know that even an unintended kinslaying is punished by the gods. Chayle being dead in the dream does not mean he is dead. Theon thinks him dead, just like he thinks all the people rode to south are dead. They are all in the dream too but we know that Harwin is still alive. That means the people at the dream are not dead yet. Besides Robb was not dead back than when Theon saw this dream. Hallis Mollen with Ned's bones is not dead either.

Harwin isn't mentioned in the dream, as far is I recall.

[Mithras]

He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return.

These people include Harwin and Hallis Mollen. They were at the feast when Robb came to the feast. Which means they died before Robb. But they are still kicking. How can you explain this? I think the most reasonable explanation is that Theon thinks they are dead. Theon does not think Robb is dead, so he came to the feast to foreshadow his death.

Sorry but this is bs. We have no real indication that kinslaying is punished by any gods.

Or please explain why Theon is punished so horribly for killing one son when Craster gets a quick death though he sacrifices dozens of his sons?

Also no indication that Maekar was punished for his unintended kinslaying.

Maybe Theon is being "punished" by Ramsay because Ramsay is a sick and fucked up bastard? Why include the old gods into it?

You can call it Theon's subconscious if you dont believe the old gods. He knew in his subconscious that the boy was his. Such a deep knowledge can resurface with these ugly dreams and smashes the hard truth against Theon's face.

Roose made a face, as if the ale he was sipping had suddenly gone sour. “There are times you make me wonder if you truly are my seed. My forebears were many things, but never fools. No, be quiet now, I have heard enough. We appear strong for the moment, yes. We have powerful friends in the Lannisters and Freys, and the grudging support of much of the north … but what do you imagine is going to happen when one of Ned Stark’s sons turns up?”

Ned Stark’s sons are all dead, Reek thought. Robb was murdered at the Twins, and Bran and Rickon … we dipped the heads in tar … His own head was pounding. He did not want to think about anything that had happened before he knew his name. There were things too hurtful to remember, thoughts almost as painful as Ramsay’s flaying knife …

Theon makes a wall in his mind. He knew his guilt deep down but cannot admit it to himself. If you are still going with Theon Durden theory, there you have the self admittance of kinslaying. Theon calls himself a kinslayer, Reek replies he didnot.

I still go with Septon Chayle. The pools before the heart tree were very deep, Osha appeared from the water to scare the shit out of Hodor (hehe we have a dangler).

[kiasyd]

He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return.

These people include Harwin and Hallis Mollen. They were at the feast when Robb came to the feast. Which means they died before Robb. But they are still kicking. How can you explain this? I think the most reasonable explanation is that Theon thinks they are dead. Theon does not think Robb is dead, so he came to the feast to foreshadow his death.

Well, this passage can be interpreted in two ways:

1. "All who have ridden south were there" - Every single person who had ridden south with Ned.

"All others who were there had ridden south" - Everyone else observed at the feast belonged to the retinue that had ridden south.

#1 Includes everyone including Harwin and Hallis as you claim; #2 does not, it just includes the non-named characters present at the feast. My interpretation tents to #2, since #1 would imply a few "weird" questions... For instance: Does Arya, Sansa and Jeyne appear at the feast? All three are alive and went south as well...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well, this passage can be interpreted in two ways:

• "All who have ridden south were there" - Every single person who had ridden south with Ned.
• "All others who were there had ridden south" - Everyone else observed at the feast belonged to the retinue that had ridden south.

#1 Includes everyone including Harwin and Hallis as you claim; #2 does not, it just includes the non-named characters present at the feast. My interpretation tents to #2, since #1 would imply a few "weird" questions... For instance: Does Arya, Sansa and Jeyne appear at the feast? All three are alive and went south as well...

Good point. And I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how Chayle got out of the well.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return.

These people include Harwin and Hallis Mollen. They were at the feast when Robb came to the feast. Which means they died before Robb. But they are still kicking. How can you explain this? I think the most reasonable explanation is that Theon thinks they are dead. Theon does not think Robb is dead, so he came to the feast to foreshadow his death.

I still go with Septon Chayle. The pools before the heart tree were very deep, Osha appeared from the water to scare the shit out of Hodor (hehe we have a dangler).

Interesting organization. I agree that in that particular dream, right up until Robb & GW enter, he dreams of people he knows to be dead (or thinks he does) as evidenced by the specific wounds he sees on Ned and Robert (whose manner of death he would know) and the more vague wounds (or even lack of wounds in the case of Lyanna, Brandon and Rickard) for those whose manner of death he never knew and could only imagine. That is what makes the dream so terrifying to him.

But the dream doesn't mention Harwin and I see no reason to think he's in it. Hal Mollen didn't go to KL with Ned either, but was with Robb and was assigned to guard Cat during the Whispering Wood. He remained with Robb until he was dispatched with Ned's bones after Theon defected to the Ironborn.

And I'm sorry but I think Chayle is dead. In fact, the most likely candidate for HM, with motive and opportunity and who would recognize Theon but possibly not be recognized by him, imo is Harwin.

[theREALjonsnow]

See the pattern? Theon shows his left hand only and says the gods are not done with him. The Hooded Man (or the night walker as Theon called) looks at him and sees the guy has 8 fingers so he laughs and leaves him to Ramsay to finish what he started. I think that is a strong evidence for HM=Chayle theory. Septon Chayle assumed Theon got 8 fingers, 1 more from the holy number seven, so he left him for Ramsay. All the people at the Feast were known dead to Theon. Robb came and Theon called him a night walker too. So he is consistent about calling Septon Chayle as a night walker.

"his left hand had three fingers, his right four" not 8... your theory fall away if not connected to the septons faith right?

[Mithras]

Well, this passage can be interpreted in two ways:

1. "All who have ridden south were there" - Every single person who had ridden south with Ned.

"All others who were there had ridden south" - Everyone else observed at the feast belonged to the retinue that had ridden south.

#1 Includes everyone including Harwin and Hallis as you claim; #2 does not, it just includes the non-named characters present at the feast. My interpretation tents to #2, since #1 would imply a few "weird" questions... For instance: Does Arya, Sansa and Jeyne appear at the feast? All three are alive and went south as well...

First of all, forget Hallis Mollen. I dont know what I was thinking back then :D

I understand your point. But Theon does not have to name every single person in the dream. There were old Stark kings going anonymous in the dream. Compare these two:

He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return.

Jory was dead, and Fat Tom, and Porther, Alyn, Desmond, Hullen who had been master of horse, Harwin his son… all those who had gone south with his father, even Septa Mordane and Vayon Poole.

The second account is Bran's. He is not dreaming and he gives more names including Harwin but we know he is alive. It may be even possible that more of them may be still alive. We didnot see the death of every person Ned took south with him.

I think the interpretaion is clearly #1. Bran uses almost exactly the same sentence to describe these people. If that is still not convincing, I cant think of anything else.

If we accept this interpretation, it automatically follows that not all the people Theon saw in his dream are necessarily dead. Even not all the people Bran thinks dead are not dead.

And I'm sorry but I think Chayle is dead. In fact, the most likely candidate for HM, with motive and opportunity and who would recognize Theon but possibly not be recognized by him, imo is Harwin.

I agree that Harwin is another possible candidate. English is not my native language but I feel like the discourse HM used seems to me somewhat "educated". Chayle always spoke above a certain level. Harwin is talking like a commoner. I am not bold with this but I like to hear what people think about this.

[SonofStannis]

I always thought those dreams he had were a result of his guilty conscience

[kiasyd]

First of all, forget Hallis Mollen. I dont know what I was thinking back then :D

I understand your point. But Theon does not have to name every single person in the dream. There were old Stark kings going anonymous in the dream. Compare these two:

He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return.

Jory was dead, and Fat Tom, and Porther, Alyn, Desmond, Hullen who had been master of horse, Harwin his son… all those who had gone south with his father, even Septa Mordane and Vayon Poole.

The second account is Bran's. He is not dreaming and he gives more names including Harwin but we know he is alive. It may be even possible that more of them may be still alive. We didnot see the death of every person Ned took south with him.

I think the interpretaion is clearly #1. Bran uses almost exactly the same sentence to describe these people. If that is still not convincing, I cant think of anything else.

If we accept this interpretation, it automatically follows that not all the people Theon saw in his dream are necessarily dead. Even not all the people Bran thinks dead are not dead.

I agree that Harwin is another possible candidate. English is not my native language but I feel like the discourse HM used seems to me somewhat "educated". Chayle always spoke above a certain level. Harwin is talking like a commoner. I am not bold with this but I like to hear what people think about this.

My point stands. If the enumeration includes everyone, why are the Stark girls absent?

[Mithras]

My point stands. If the enumeration includes everyone, why are the Stark girls absent?

They are thought to be alive and kept by the Lannisters as hostages.

[kiasyd]

They are thought to be alive and kept by the Lannisters as hostages.

Right, and, absent from the prophetic dream.

What I'm arguing is that the whole point of this dream is to foreshadow Robb's death. This is a feast of dead people, and Robb just arrives to the feast with Grey Wind and the correct wounds which will eventually kill them. Placing people who are alive and well feasting with the dead doesn't work as well narratively, and thus, I think it's safe to assume that Chayle is dead and Harwin isn't present at the feast.

Again, I approach this issue from a narrative perspective: Of course this dream relates to Theon's guilt, his prior knowledge of everyone who died but the dream is also spiced with prophecy and foreshadowing - it wouldn't work as well if alive people were there too.

[Kienn]

correct wounds which will eventually kill them.

I wouldn't call Robb's death remotely close to "half a hundred savage wounds".

What was it, 1 or 2 bolts and a single stab to the heart...

No... Theon sees how he thinks Robb will die - gloriously in battle against many foes.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

wow,. I never thought about The Miller kids actually maybe being Theon's sons.....Does Theon know this before he kills them?

[Mithras]

Right, and, absent from the prophetic dream.

What I'm arguing is that the whole point of this dream is to foreshadow Robb's death. This is a feast of dead people, and Robb just arrives to the feast with Grey Wind and the correct wounds which will eventually kill them. Placing people who are alive and well feasting with the dead doesn't work as well narratively, and thus, I think it's safe to assume that Chayle is dead and Harwin isn't present at the feast.

Again, I approach this issue from a narrative perspective: Of course this dream relates to Theon's guilt, his prior knowledge of everyone who died but the dream is also spiced with prophecy and foreshadowing - it wouldn't work as well if alive people were there too.

Whether you like it or not, GRRM (the narrator) included Harwin to the feast, as the two quotes I gave prove. Unless you have something to add to that, I dont want to speak more on this.

I wouldn't call Robb's death remotely close to "half a hundred savage wounds".

What was it, 1 or 2 bolts and a single stab to the heart...

No... Theon sees how he thinks Robb will die - gloriously in battle against many foes.

:agree: 3 bolts and a single stab to the heart.

wow,. I never thought about The Miller kids actually maybe being Theon's sons.....Does Theon know this before he kills them?

I believe only the small boy was his and he didnot know it consciously. However, he now knows it in his guts. It is only a matter of time he will fully realize it (maybe with a little help from Bran).