Second Game of Thrones Trailer Premieres

[Le Cygne]

I'm wondering if it is maybe Gendry. We saw him setting off in season 3 in a row boat when Davos helped him escape. The series will need to continue his story.

My theory doesn't explain the look of armour though

That's true. He's a knight now, he could have gotten armor. I thought I heard he isn't coming back this season, but I could be mistaken...

[HairGrowsBack]

That's true. He's a knight now, he could have gotten armor. I thought I heard he isn't coming back this season, but I could be mistaken...

Is he knighted in the show though ? I don't remember it being mentioned .

Gendry is a pretty popular character imo, but if he doesn't have a significant role later on they might just give up on him unfortunately.

[Colonel Green]

Is he knighted in the show though ? I don't remember it being mentioned .

No, the fact that the Brotherhood knighted all its members was never mentioned.

[titanx5]

Gendry wasnt knighted in the show, if he was im sure Davos would have called him Ser. Plus he doesnt have any money so doubt whether he would have had enough time to buy armor and then carry on rowing his boat. I dont think Joe Dempsie is returning in s4 which would be a pity, cause could see him replacing Ser Hyle

[King of the Road]

I thought it might be nice for him to have a cameo role in Season 4. He's returned to King's Landing so why not have him be the one to forge or at least aid in the forging of Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail?

[Le Cygne]

That would have been a good chance to see a knighting, to hear the words. I don't recall, but I don't think that's been on the show yet, either. That was a big message in the books, the contrast between what knights pledge to do and what they actually do. They touched on it indirectly in a few scenes, but lost quite a lot, sadly.

He talks about season 4 here, 6:00:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Aj-Wu6UxE

[Annara Snow]

Annara, I have to requote myself with the complete post because I feel bad if my post comes over as demeaning the actor who plays Sandor.

Indeed I cannot see the character of Sandor as erotic, although I have to admit that all of them in this world probably stink horribly. But sorry, I like resonant, deep, beautiful and modulated voices in men, not ""rasping". To me Sandor is .......shudder.

Yet again: the actor is probably perfectly nice and erotic. I don't know him but to me erotics is transported by smile, eyes, movements, intelligence and voice. All this may be there with the actor but not with the character of Sandor for me. Personal taste.

By Annara Snow:

Of course I have to accept that your taste is different. You see one side of the character Sandor's qualities while I see another. I could, coming from myself as mother, see the traumatized little boy but I see the guy who killed a traumatized boy.

That is interesting since we women are all attracted to emotional nurturing. In a twisted way this is is expressed by women explicitely seeking out the bad guys (I read that you don't like the term, sorry) as their task, their perspective in life, women contacting longterm prisoners e.g. And they want to be the one and only then for a man so much in need. This is not totally pervert, it is the the twisted continuation of what we women, or most of us, have been taught to desire: to be important only when needed. And this wish may easily drive women to be with the one most in need, to see themselves as indispensable redemption angel. Yes, the "emotional virgin" is a thrill and it is erotic to imagine oneself as his one and only. Although unfortunately in one of my many jobs I have seen the dark side of it: the victims of domestic violence who still put his wellbeing over their own, who draw all their self confidence from allegedly being able to redeem him, to find in him what he could be.......only to end up at best in a shelter for battered women. That's why I react a little allergic here.

But coming back to the books: what you see in Sandor I may see in the character of Tyrion although he in the books is more of the age to be my son or not much older (I don't mind younger men but somewhere I draw the line :D ) The "emotional virgin" would not be completely correct since Tyrion has experienced real love but it would be the "emotional honesty virgin". Works as mother or as lover :) although here the conflict between imagining the character and the actor gets quite big. I don't follow so many blogs but Dinklage does not at all strike me as emotionally depraved and is old enough to have erotic thrill for me, though only in his role as Tyrion, I never touch married men except my own :D . So I simply imagine book Tyrion as Dinklage, easy since I am one of those lightweight fans who started reading only after the first episode.

So you see it all is only a matter of taste. And let me not start with HBO Jorah, Jaqen, book not HBO Mance.... hmmm...

I was just thinking, while I was writing that post, about how much Sandor and Tyrion have in common - some of the same insecurties and issues regarding women and emotional needs, history of being abused, the way people judge them by their looks and the stereotypes associated with them, and the way they both use a persona as a defense. Although there are of course also obvious contrasts; Sandor is exceptionally physically powerful (although ironbut has very little social power and is a subservient position to the Lannisters, considered their "dog", while Tyrion is physically weaker than most adults but has a powerful social position as a Lannister (especially in ACOK as Hand) - except in relation to his father, and, to an extent, other members of his family (until he loses this position in ADWD and finds himself at the bottom of the society, as a slave). Which makes the fact that they dislike each other all the more interestng.

Anyway, you said that Sandor raises domestic violence flags in your mind, but what about Tyrion, does he raise those flags? He should. Slapping Shae when she disagreed with his decision; controllng who she got to interact with - and not just for her and his safety, but out of pure jealousy (taking care that her guards were ugly and/or homosexual), and, of course, strangling her in the end. And then there's his rape of the sex slave, threats to another sex slace and general attitude to women during ADWD. But I am guessing that all this hasn't put you off him entirely, since you find the character sympathetic and interesting, since he has appealling qualities to offset the unappealing ones, and since we can relate to or feel sorry for him since we know his background and have seen him go through a lot, so we can forgive him. I've never been exactly "attracted" to Tyrion as a character in "that" way, but I always found him very sympathetic, and although I now like him less than I did in the first two + books, because he's far less likable as a person, I still sympathise with him and find his journey engaging. But I can see why some fans have come to hate him. In real life, he wouldn't be someone I'd like to be around - at least not since ASOS; same with Sandor. But in fiction, we can love these characters.

[Woman of War]

Come to that I suddenly realized that Sandor and Tyrion are in a way balanced: Sandor is, until his nearly deadly wound at least, really extremely powerful physically.

While Tyrion is until the end of ASOS at least, extremely intellectually competent while getting a little erratic after he he murdered Tywin and Shae.

Both may come back though.

No, somehow not.

Tyrion does not raise the flag od domestic violence here, at least not the same way. This may have to do with myself since I know that against physical violence I am quite helpless, I have about the height and volume of Emilia Clarke or Sibel Kekilli. But nearly any woman, even tall strong Sophie Turner could be smashed to pieces by the character Sandor. While I never had any reason to fear arguing and powerfighting with any man. I am not afraid of getting emotionally abused or ridiculed, something that would be Tyrion's domain.

Yes, objectively Tyrion may be even physically not really weak, as shown in the books, he can fight and be violent. But I think his issues are different: he does not want to shape the woman, he wants to be loved by the woman the way she is, actually he seems to be seeking a dominant woman, not as sexual variety here but as approach to life. He wants to lose himself in a relationship. While Sandor has a certain image of his little bird. But if she ever dares to seriously spread her wings this may be the end. Sansa has a function to Sandor as long as it is his role to teach and lead. Well, all amateurish analysis here.

Apart from that I of course can relate better to a character who is "nerdy" and used to solving problems verbally. Sandor certainly has his own sense of humor but I prefer Tyrion's.

I mean none of the the two looks remotely like my sons (mine are handsome :) ) but in Tyrion I see the guy who could have resembled my sons in his mindset if he had had a happier life. Or the other way round: my sons could in a darker world be Tyrion but never Sandor. Disclaimer: I actually am very much interested in Sandor as literary character, he is fascinating. And fascinating like Varys, not like Ramsey.

I know of couse that abusive husbands exist on every step of the social ladder. So Tyrion being more intellectual while Sandor is "white trash" (I don't know a better English expression) would be no reason. But Tyrion exploded when his situation got totally out of control, when he had lost everything while book Sandor simply exploded as reaction of first choice.

Note that they cut Sandor's most violent scene towards Sansa, the scene on the stairs. In the show they definitely wanted to reduce the rapey threat coming from him. And I guess they may not reinstalk that in the dying scene with Arya. He can be seen as protector in the HBO version, slightly different character. I would not have that dark feeling towards HBO Sandor.

Edit: one topic I forgot: I really am touched just as much by sexual abuse towards boys as towards girls. Both is equally horrid and as mother I feared just as much for my sons, especially for the one who is or was when he was younger, as beautiful as an angel (now he is a competent martial arts fighter and can look after himself :) ) and I see indeed Tyrion as victim of sexual abuse who was even more perfiously abused by being turned into an abuser himself. No, I do not forget Tysha. But this is the emotional Ground Zero for Tyrion: no way out wherever you turn. You cannot even rightfully complain and cry out because you allegedly wanted it, you were part of it. Not only the body got invaded, the mind as well.

I know, you will tell me ... But Sandor and his brother...of course. Only here obviously things are clear: Sandor is guilt free and has no reason to be conflicted about it: the rightful victim free to hate the other, not himself. Actually this is easier I guess.

Of course another parallel between the two to consider.

Editedit: i am seriously procrastinating obviously: of course if you might see Sandor as kind of attractive you won't see the threat first of all while I could rationalize the same with Tyrion if he were not too young for me. I take refuge to Dinklage so I don't feel like a child molester. But we had that topic elsewhere, forgot where.

[Woman of War]

Sorry, dp

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Sorry, dp

Be more careful next time!!! :devil:

[Woman of War]

Be more careful next time!!! :devil:

Hej, that was the web or the site fooling me, at least this time not my digital incompetence!

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Hej, that was the web or the site fooling me, at least this time not my digital incompetence!

We'll let it slide this time.. :whip:

[Annara Snow]

Come to that I suddenly realized that Sandor and Tyrion are in a way balanced: Sandor is, until his nearly deadly wound at least, really extremely powerful physically.

While Tyrion is until the end of ASOS at least, extremely intellectually competent while getting a little erratic after he he murdered Tywin and Shae.

Both may come back though.

No, somehow not.

Tyrion does not raise the flag od domestic violence here, at least not the same way. This may have to do with myself since I know that against physical violence I am quite helpless, I have about the height and volume of Emilia Clarke or Sibel Kekilli. But nearly any woman, even tall strong Sophie Turner could be smashed to pieces by the character Sandor. While I never had any reason to fear arguing and powerfighting with any man. I am not afraid of getting emotionally abused or ridiculed, something that would be Tyrion's domain.

I don't get your reasoning, really. You're saying that Tyrion does not raise the flag of domestic violence just because he's not physically strong? So, you measure the danger of domestic violence by the abuser's size and muscularity?

That doesn't really make sense. Especially since in so many cases, the real power that domestic abusers have over their victims is not so much in their physical strength, but in the social and economic dependency of the victim on the abuser.

Yes, objectively Tyrion may be even physically not really weak, as shown in the books, he can fight and be violent. But I think his issues are different: he does not want to shape the woman, he wants to be loved by the woman the way she is, actually he seems to be seeking a dominant woman, not as sexual variety here but as approach to life. He wants to lose himself in a relationship. While Sandor has a certain image of his little bird. But if she ever dares to seriously spread her wings this may be the end. Sansa has a function to Sandor as long as it is his role to teach and lead. Well, all amateurish analysis here.

Really? Trying to shape the woman is exactly what Tyrion tried to do with Shae. This may be the best example of someone trying to shape a woman into something he wanted in ASOAIF. He created the image of her in his mind, of what he wanted her to be. He told her straight away what she was supposed to do and how he wanted her to behave, and she accepted it as a job, but he wanted to believe it was real. He brought her to King's Landing, put guards around her that he carefully picked so they couldn't possibly be sexual competition for Shae (they had to be both ugly and homosexual), he controlled who Shae was seeing. When she disagreed with him, he didn't like it and even he slapped her, then apologized but said that they were both wrong. He never actually tried to understand who Shae really was, he just saw her as his fantasy woman who would make him feel loved and desired. He was basically trying to make her Tysha 2.0.

It wasn't very different with Sansa. He didn't love her, he didn't really even know her or understand her as a person, and he knew that she had every reason in the world to resent the marriage to him, but he couldn't help fantasizing about her coming to him and wanting him to comfort her, giving him her body and heart, as Tysha 3.0. Even though he should have realized that she had nothing to gain in that marriage, and that, if he was really concerned with her well-being, he would have tried to get her away from KL, away from Joffrey and Cersei and the rest, or, at the very least, he wouldn't be expecting her to eventually come around and have sex with him. I don't blame him for being selfish, it's only human, but he was selfish when he thought about his own hurt feelings caused by the fact that a 12-year old hostage forced to marry him wasn't attracted to him, rather than about said hostage's wellbeing, or the fact that making him feel loved really wasn't her responsibility.

[Le Cygne]

Tyrion actually attempts to rape her to take Winterfell, forcing her to strip and groping her. Her response: she insults his manhood and says never.

Sandor makes her sing during a PTSD episode while trying to rescue her. Her response: a thousand sexual fantasies.

Maybe this endless debate could be taken to another thread - this is a news thread...

[Woman of War]

Look, Annara, I gave a very personal answer, an answer that does not ask for being dissected but that said: I understand your viewpoint and accept it as valid in all its irrationality so now I tell you mine who will be just as irrational in your eyes.

Maybe it would have been polite to let it be for the moment. But I guess I am naive in expecting a certain netiquette while it is the nature of this medium to hit wherever you can.

I should have learned by now that putting an opinion in relation to personal history is not seen here as the analytically correct and scientifically honest thing to do, as it would be within any social or literature analysis that wants to be taken seriously. It is simply naive to expect that in these forums since the debate here is not about learning but about winning. Cock comparing. :)

I think I am cured from any approach here, as by the way a feminist approach would be, to admit that the object observed changes with the subject that observes. I could fight bloody as well but the evening is too nice for a waste of time. Go on happily with being the only one who is right.

[Annara Snow]

Look, Annara, I gave a very personal answer, an answer that does not ask for being dissected but that said: I understand your viewpoint and accept it as valid in all its irrationality so now I tell you mine who will be just as irrational in your eyes.

Maybe it would have been polite to let it be for the moment. But I guess I am naive in expecting a certain netiquette while it is the nature of this medium to hit wherever you can.

I should have learned by now that putting an opinion in relation to personal history is not seen here as the analytically correct and scientifically honest thing to do, as it would be within any social or literature analysis that wants to be taken seriously. It is simply naive to expect that in these forums since the debate here is not about learning but about winning. Cock comparing. :)

I think I am cured from any approach here, as by the way a feminist approach would be, to admit that the object observed changes with the subject that observes. I could fight bloody as well but the evening is too nice for a waste of time. Go on happily with being the only one who is right.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as "netiquette" here. It's certainly not against netiquette to disagre about things such as the actions of characters in the story. Obviously, you can't be "wrong" about liking a character more than some other character, or relating to a character more. But the things that the characters do are very much in the domain of the things to disagree about. The fact is that Tyrion's position as a Lannister, for a while even the Hand of the King, gave him a lot of power. He may not be able to go around killing people, but he was able to send Bronn to murder someone he saw as a threat. He would have been able to rape Sansa if he had wanted to, since she was aware that she was a hostage surrounded by Lannisters and their men. We've also seen Tyrion try to control Shae, slap her and eventually strangle her. We also saw him come close to raping Sansa, including groping her breast and making her see him naked and erect, and then there's also the slave in Essos (the last time he was in more powerful position than someone). It's not like mocking and words are the only way he can hurt people.

I get that you personally wouldn't feel threatened by Tyrion and you would by Sandor, but you seem to be saying that Tyrion is objectively not threatening except for the possibility he may mock or emotionally abuse someone, and I don't think the text supports this.

Tyrion actually attempts to rape her to take Winterfell, forcing her to strip and groping her. Her response: she insults his manhood and says never.

I know that you may be sarcastic here or strictly referring to Tyrion's feelings on the matter, but really, the idea that a woman rejecting sex with a man (not to mention a 12-year old hostage refusing sex with a man she's been forced to marry) can be seen as an insult to his manhood, is a big problem in itself. Though it's not so surprising that Tyrion felt that way, considering the culture he grew up in, and his own issues and insecurities.

Anyway, you are right, this should be a discussion for another topic. (And hopefully it wouldn't get locked soon...)

[Le Cygne]

She was 12.9, may as well call her 13, that's what she did. ("Thirteen," she said, "when the moon turns.")

And by "his manhood" I was referring to his penis. Trying to use the polite term. That was actually her textual response to him, what I stated. She insulted his penis ("Even his manhood was ugly...") and said never ("And if I never want you to, my lord?")

Contrast this to a very different response to Sandor. She caressed his cheek, put on his "bloody" cloak (that she keeps), wishes she had gone with him, pretends they kissed, wishes he'd come for her, and on and on and on..., and places him in her bed.

(Quotes from the book...)

[Metopheles]

Thank god Lysa Tully (16) did not have to have sex with Jon Arryn (55) when she married him for love...

Evil evil Tyrion (26) not having sex with Sansa (13)

Tyrion did not want to do it. And he didn't. He couldn't. He wont.

[Le Cygne]

He said "I want you" but he stopped himself, after making her strip and groping her. After forcibly marrying her. This was not a marriage arranged by the families, this was an act of aggression to take Winterfell. Robb thought they'd kill her after they got what they wanted, he wanted to free her by chopping off Tyrion's head.

[Annara Snow]

damn the slow board and the double posts...