Heresy 95 The Magic of Ice and Fire

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Thought provoking OP, Tyryan. And very helpful posts, Wolfmaid - source material is always helpful!

A variant I have considered is that the magical base of the Wall was originally a naturally-occuring river that ran east/west.

Weirwood trees might have been planted along this river, long, long ago...

I like both of these ideas - had not considered them together, but that's interesting. In Ygritte's telling of the story of Bael the Bard, she ends the story by relating that:

"Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford... and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

...and I've always wondered about that Frozen Ford. Did the Frozen Ford become the Wall? Does the Wall now stand where once the Frozen Ford sufficed as a boundary line between the realms?

I do feel strongly that Val is the representation of the Morrigan and even though she claims no relation to Monster, I think she's just being coy. Her words have a playful mocking tone that make me think she's lying. That she's nicknamed him "Monster" also seems to link him to the White Walkers. Would the Children then have conspired or consulted with the Morrigan? Would they consider the Morrigan as one of the old gods?

When it came to clues it struck me as odd that that the COTF aren't producing anymore GS who were basically their link.It seems like they also lost their mojo.Then we have the emergence of human GS's who they are coercing into that position. In addition the Skinchanging ability began to appear among men. It was almost as if the COTF were rejected and transfer of power in the form of GS's and Skinchangers went to men. So i think that with the defeat and loss of their land the boons given to them were taken and they lost their position as Consort to the land.Basically if you parallel the GS position to the myth of Consort king and the Goddess of the land i think a link is there.The morrigan fits nicely as she was known to have consort kings

I'm trying to think how this would have happened naturally within magical lore without the COTF having sex with men( which i can't see at all) or cutting palms and becoming blood brothers with the FM. :ack:

It is circumstantial at best i admit but if i was them i'd be pissed and i would be seeking a way to ensure i get back my position.If i can't then i'll use those who can.

I could be on board with Val as a priestess - but not as the Morrigan herself. The women of Craster's Keep, and Gilly in particular, fit that bill - and are much more closely aligned with the Celtic Dark Mother than any other female characters in GRRM's story.

Considering the notion of the Morrigan and the king... it's worth taking another look at either of the scenes in which Gilly meets with Jon Snow. In the first (at the Keep) she approaches him as brother to the king ("Is it true, m'lord? Are you brother to a king?"). Later (at Castle Black) she kneels before him and Jon himself draws her up: "You don't need to take a knee for me. That's just for kings."

You are perfectly correct in that the name "hammer of the waters" is never used in association with the Arm of Dorne.Luwin merely describes the greenseers as raising the waters to "shatter" the Arm,leaving only the Stepstones.

The reason it becomes associated in readers minds with the Arm is in the way it's recounted by both Catelyn Stark and Theon Greyjoy in relation to the Neck.

In both cases it's referred to as "their hammer of the waters",they being the COTF/Greenseers.It's always referred to in lower case.The message is legend believes they have a weapon called the hammer which they use repeatedly when needed to varying effect.They both refer to this weapon being "brought down" or "called down" by the greenseers.

Luwin's use of the word "shatter" instead of say "drowned" suggests a percussive act and to raise water levels you have to add more water or some other body of volume,which won't necessarily target an area such as the Arm,but affect the entire body of water and all coastlines associated with it.

Nice connection. The "shattering" language does connect the two.

[Grand Maester Tarkin]

OK, I can see I did cause offense and I am truly sorry for that. I could have skipped the frustration part and simply posted the passages. You will not find any passages that include "hammer" and "Arm of Dorne" together. It's only in conjunction with the Neck. You may think it's a small thing, and it may not be relevant to the story at all anyway, but I see them as different magics. I think the Arm of Dorne was likely a tsunami, and the Hammer at the Neck an ice comet. If there was a comet, it could have had side effects, such as White Walkers, or dragons if we can find some truth in the cracked moon story, or both.

You are perfectly correct in that the name "hammer of the waters" is never used in association with the Arm of Dorne.Luwin merely describes the greenseers as raising the waters to "shatter" the Arm,leaving only the Stepstones.

The reason it becomes associated in readers minds with the Arm is in the way it's recounted by both Catelyn Stark and Theon Greyjoy in relation to the Neck.

In both cases it's referred to as "their hammer of the waters",they being the COTF/Greenseers.It's always referred to in lower case.The message is legend believes they have a weapon called the hammer which they use repeatedly when needed to varying effect.They both refer to this weapon being "brought down" or "called down" by the greenseers.

Luwin's use of the word "shatter" instead of say "drowned" suggests a percussive act and to raise water levels you have to add more water or some other body of volume,which won't necessarily target an area such as the Arm,but affect the entire body of water and all coastlines associated with it.

I think both of you are right to a certain extent regarding the COTF breaking the Arm of Dorne. It seems like, though you have different theories, the consensus is that the Children's water magic invoked a natural event/disaster. Whatever it was that "shattered" the arm, it would likely have a parallel in nature. Redriver rightly points out that a general rise in sea levels wouldn't target a specific area. Feather Crystal's idea of a tsunami is possible, though I don't think it would have the necessary long-term effect.

One real-life example to look at is the Bering land bridge, which existed during the most recent ice age. Land bridges were a byproduct of the massive glaciation, which dried up shallow seabeds around the world. I've selected some quotes from the wiki article that explain its formation and disappearance:

During the ice ages, Beringia, like most of Siberia and all of Manchuria, was not glaciated because snowfall was very light. It was a grassland steppe, including the land bridge, that stretched for several hundred miles into the continents on either side.

During the last glacial period, enough of the earth's water became frozen in the great ice sheets covering North America and Europe that the corresponding drop in sea levels exposed the sea floors of many interglacial shallow seas for thousands of years, including those of the Bering Strait, the Chukchi Sea to the north, and the Bering Sea to the south.

The rise and fall of global sea levels exposed and submerged the bridging land mass joining Beringia in several periods of the Pleistocene. The Beringian land bridge is believed to have existed both in the glaciation that occurred before 35,000 Before Present (BP) and during the more recent period 22,000-17,000 years BP. The strait reopened about 15,500 BP and by c. 6000 BP the coastlines had assumed approximately their present configurations.

So one of the closest real-life examples we have for the Arm of Dorne was caused by changes in glaciation. I don't know if GRRM intended to imitate the Bering Strait, but it provides some interesting clues into how the Children's magic may have worked. Perhaps the Arm was a shallow seabed that was filled by the melting of glaciers in the Red Mountains. In this way, you'd have water levels rise in a localized area without affecting global sea levels. It also has connections to ice, which ties into Feather Crystal's other idea of an ice comet.

[redriver]

I think both of you are right to a certain extent regarding the COTF breaking the Arm of Dorne. It seems like, though you have different theories, the consensus is that the Children's water magic invoked a natural event/disaster. Whatever it was that "shattered" the arm, it would likely have a parallel in nature. Redriver rightly points out that a general rise in sea levels wouldn't target a specific area. Feather Crystal's idea of a tsunami is possible, though I don't think it would have the necessary long-term effect.

One real-life example to look at is the Bering land bridge, which existed during the most recent ice age. Land bridges were a byproduct of the massive glaciation, which dried up shallow seabeds around the world. I've selected some quotes from the wiki article that explain its formation and disappearance:

So one of the closest real-life examples we have for the Arm of Dorne was caused by changes in glaciation. I don't know if GRRM intended to imitate the Bering Strait, but it provides some interesting clues into how the Children's magic may have worked. Perhaps the Arm was a shallow seabed that was filled by the melting of glaciers in the Red Mountains. In this way, you'd have water levels rise in a localized area without affecting global sea levels. It also has connections to ice, which ties into Feather Crystal's other idea of an ice comet.

I'm with Feather Crystal in the Ice Comet speculation area.But would it not be more correct to label it as a meteor or meteorite once it enters the planets atmosphere?Please accept that I'm being pedantic with good reason.

[Grand Maester Tarkin]

I'm with Feather Crystal in the Ice Comet speculation area.But would it not be more correct to label it as a meteor or meteorite once it enters the planets atmosphere?Please accept that I'm being pedantic with good reason.

A meteorite is anything that impacts the Earth. It can come from a comet or an asteroid, but only a comet contains large quantities of ice.

[WierWood Wolf]

WRT magic is. It important to discuss places of power such as the Wall and Winterfell. Maybe these places increase the casters power and should be discussed? Mel makes mention of the wall and Bran contacts Jon from the crypts to Skirling Pass. I would also mention The Children's Tower and Cave of Skulls as places where magic is amplified.

[Varmyr]

Coincidentally, in one of the links I provided, I'll make sure u posted it.George was coming down the stairs Ther was a painting of Ghost and Jon and next to that wss another painting of a woman all in white standing on a Waning Moon.

That pic reminded me of Gladriel especially in the first Hobbit movie.

The pic Reminds me of Val...

[Varmyr]

Absolutely, it was just a theory that if they used the Hammer of the Waters the first two times to separate the continent, that perhaps they did the third time as well. Which would explain how it was (paraphrasing GRRM's SSM on the Wall) "built in hundreds of years, but took thousands to complete".

The wall being built of Blocks, having a foundation, and as you stated taking hundreds if not thousands of years to build all suggest that the Wall origin was not the 3rd Hammer.

Though long ago, I theorized the same thing until JNR pointed out these points...

[Varmyr]

I really don't understand why you have such a problem with this. It is no different than drawing analogies from other sources. I see you attack Wolfmaid so frequently that I think you are a troll. You constantly bait her and it's starting to look deliberate.

I think it is important to make a distinction between GRRM's World & the Real World… Wolfmaid7 often tries to force the rules of magic as she practices them in her coven onto our analysis of magic in GRRM's World.

I, on the other hand, do not see any evidence or any reason to believe that GRRM based the magic of his world upon mistaken pagan beliefs from this world.

So basically, any insight that regards random pagan magic beliefs from this world (which do not foliow thermodynamical principles & are therefore wrong), are not relevant to this discussion.

I see you attack Wolfmaid so frequently that I think you are a troll. You constantly bait her and it's starting to look deliberate.

It is nothing against Wolfmaid7 that I often reply to her post.

I reply to comments for the following reasons:

1. when I strongly agree with a given comment

when I strongly disagree with a given comment

when I feel that there are factual errors in the post

when I feel the post makes assumptions that are unfounded

or when I have strong feeling toward a the subject matter of the post

Wolfmaid7 has the balls necessary to go out on a limb & make bold post, bold theories, post that most here would not make.

It just so happens that the bold nature of her post often result in drawing my attention (as well as others), which may or may not result in one or more of the 5 reasons mentioned above that I may reply to given message.

If Wolfmaid7 does not like the attention, then she needs to loose the balls & make post that are not as bold. Because scrutiny definitely comes with the territory of make such posts.

Personally, I prefer that Wolfmaid7 do whatever she feels like doing.

I'm sure that Wolfmaid7 appreciates you standing up for her, but I think she can handle the scrutiny, otherwise she would not be here.

[Black Crow]

Morning All,

To be honest, reading over some of last night's discussion on hammers and such like, I don't think it actually matters whether there was a difference in the means by which the Arm of Dorne was broken and the Neck turned into a swamp or whether the same "weapon" was used for both.

What does matter is that both were cataclysmic events worked or induced by means of dark magic and that since we have been told by GRRM that the imbalance in the seasons also has a magic cause it seems reasonable to link all three and posit that since the three-fingered lot were responsible for the first two they were most likely responsible for the third as well.

[Black Crow]

So one of the closest real-life examples we have for the Arm of Dorne was caused by changes in glaciation. I don't know if GRRM intended to imitate the Bering Strait, but it provides some interesting clues into how the Children's magic may have worked. Perhaps the Arm was a shallow seabed that was filled by the melting of glaciers in the Red Mountains. In this way, you'd have water levels rise in a localized area without affecting global sea levels. It also has connections to ice, which ties into Feather Crystal's other idea of an ice comet.

There is a closer example which we've discussed before in the vanished land bridge between the Island of Britain (Westeros) and the continent of Europe (Essos) in the area now known as the Pas de Calais.

Nevertheless, your argument still holds good, but as I say whether it matters may be a different matter

[Varmyr]

I can't recall reading of where GRRM has laid the ground for the eventual revelation of all these 'elementals'… The Series is A Song of Ice & Fire, not A Song of Air, Earth, Water, Ice, & Fire...

The Only even small hint I can recall is the oath that the Reeds swore to Bran. I feel that is this oath had any meaning of significance, then GRRM would have touched on the oath again during the long trek that the Reeds made North with Bran.

MMD mentioned nothing of all these elements of magic, Mel has mentioned nothing of these elements. The Undying, The Crow's Eye, Thorus of Myr, Leaf, The Kindly Man, Qyburn, Varys, Illirio, no one has even hinted at there being an air element, water element, or earth element of magic.

If these elements of magic & their balance is indeed what GRRM has in mind, then why has he not properly introduced his audience to at least the general notion in the first 5 books? Where is the precedence in ASOIAF for all these assumptions that are being made about GRRM's Magic System?

The last 4 threads have been pretty intuitive, but this one does not seem to be going in the right direction (in my opinion).

Perhaps there is just too little information available for this to be the key topic of an entire thread.

[Varmyr]

So one of the closest real-life examples we have for the Arm of Dorne was caused by changes in glaciation. I don't know if GRRM intended to imitate the Bering Strait, but it provides some interesting clues into how the Children's magic may have worked. Perhaps the Arm was a shallow seabed that was filled by the melting of glaciers in the Red Mountains. In this way, you'd have water levels rise in a localized area without affecting global sea levels. It also has connections to ice, which ties into Feather Crystal's other idea of an ice comet.

As an amateur geologists of moderate success, I'm having a difficult time seeing how the underlined statement can be possible...

Lets say that the glaciers melted & filled a land-locked basin such as the present-day Great Salt-Lake or the Areal Sea, then there would be significant change in the world-wide sea-level (there would still be s small change in sea-level because the land-locked nature of the basin cannot stop evaporation).

However the Arm of Dorne is not land-locked, so in order for it flood, there would have to be a world-wide rise in sea level & it would not matter where the water came from.

--

Subsidence is a rather frequent event in sedimentary basins - frequent in terms of geologic time. For example, there are over 40,000 feet of sediment in the Gulf of Mexico Basin. Was the GoM basin ever actually 40,000 feet deep? Nope, as sediment from the numerous rivers that feed the GoM piled up, it became heavy & the underlying crust subsided due to the weight. Though, subsidence is never a sudden event, so I doubt that it is what caused the shattering of the Arm of Dorne.

Additionally, other parts of the books make it clear that GRRM is not a geologists.

[Black Crow]

I could be on board with Val as a priestess - but not as the Morrigan herself. The women of Craster's Keep, and Gilly in particular, fit that bill - and are much more closely aligned with the Celtic Dark Mother than any other female characters in GRRM's story.

Considering the notion of the Morrigan and the king... it's worth taking another look at either of the scenes in which Gilly meets with Jon Snow. In the first (at the Keep) she approaches him as brother to the king ("Is it true, m'lord? Are you brother to a king?"). Later (at Castle Black) she kneels before him and Jon himself draws her up: "You don't need to take a knee for me. That's just for kings."

I agree that Val probably isn't the Morrigan and am more inclined as I said earlier to slot her into the priest category along with Mel on the other side.

The Jon as king business I likewise think could be significant. Gilly doesn't strike me as a kneeler. First time around could be attributed to hearing that he is the brother of Robb Stark, King in the North. Second time around though, that's different. Robb Stark is dead. Is she kneeling to Jon brother to a dead lord of Winterfell or is she kneeling to his successor; the King of Winter?

[Black Crow]

The last 4 threads have been pretty intuitive, but this one does not seem to be going in the right direction (in my opinion).

Perhaps there is just too little information available for this to be the key topic of an entire thread.

I'd be inclined to agree, as there's certainly a lot of time being devoted to the theory of magic as distinct from the practice of it. GRRM has in the past explained certain things as magic or having a magical cause without going further. Now self evidently he has some "rules" in his head for the sake of consistency and is basing at least some of the magic on Faerie mythology such as the Morrigan, but its the practical application of that magic, both of Ice and Fire which I feel we ought to be devoting more attention to - and in particular to the magical conflict between Ice and Fire.

[Black Crow]

And there is where I reckon this whole business turns into heresy as it did right at the very beginning of this thread series, because the orthodox view holds that R+L=J being true then Jon Snow, as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark will somehow save Westeros from the Others.

If pressed it is argued that as the son of R+L Jon is both Ice and Fire and will thereby therefore restore the balance between the two - yet seemingly this is to be achieved by defeating Ice. Somehow Dany and her amazing dragons don't come into this scenario other than by her bowing down before him and turning the Royal Targaryen Airforce over to his use.

Hence, instead, the Heretical view that the balance will actually be achieved through Jon asserting control over the Ice as King of Winter while Dany does the same amidst the Fire of Valyria.

[wolfmaid7]

I must have read the OP wrong, were we not speaking about magic in general as well?..

If we are restricted to how Fire and Ice alone play into this then that's fine by me.We have loads to speak of

And no ATS despite your fevered attempt to derail and dismiss this thread will not work no mattet how hard you try.Can't wait to see your position

[Black Crow]

According to the label on the tin the thread is about the Magic of Ice and Fire :cool4:

Seriously, while I appreciate your interest and knowledge of the wider subject of magic it is a huge subject and we really do need to focus if we're to get as much out of this thread as we did out of the preceding ones.

[King of Winters]

Hence, instead, the Heretical view that the balance will actually be achieved through Jon asserting control over the Ice as King of Winter while Dany does the same amidst the Fire of Valyria.

With Dany in Valyria, bringing balance to Fire as Jon will with Ice, I think it'll be harder as Valyria is worse than the Wall, and we still don't know what caused it and what it's really like there. So for Dany it's a harder job.

[Black Crow]

It may simply be a matter of perspective. Jon we seem pretty well agreed appears as a son of Winterfell to be aligned with Ice and attuned through his direwolf to the Old Gods. Dany on the other hand as a Targaryen is clearly aligned with Fire and attuned to it through her dragons. Exactly how its going to work out I don't know but it strikes me that in their own way both are fitted to go north of the Wall into the Land of Always Winter and into the Smoking Sea of Valyria respectively.

Its obviously not going to be easy but its far more likely to bring about a balance between Ice and Fire than simply defeating Ice - and what then of Fire?

[Black Crow]

WRT magic is. It important to discuss places of power such as the Wall and Winterfell. Maybe these places increase the casters power and should be discussed? Mel makes mention of the wall and Bran contacts Jon from the crypts to Skirling Pass. I would also mention The Children's Tower and Cave of Skulls as places where magic is amplified.

Its certainly something worth considering. Mel describes the Wall as one of the great hinges of the world, which apart from confirming there's a lot of magic in there obviously suggests there are others. The suggestion has therefore been advanced that their may be another Wall in Asshai. I'm not convinced. There may be, but while there's a fair (albeit not universal) amount of support for the view that the Wall is a line of demarcation between the realms of Men and those of Dark Narnia, a hinge does not necessarily have to take the form of a wall. Although GRRM has promised that we will see the Land of Always Winter, as I recall he has also said something to the effect that we're not going to see Asshai. I'd therefore suggest that if we are indeed going to encounter another hinge - a counter hinge perhaps - it will be in Valyria.

At a lower level something we can also usefully discuss in this thread is the warding or supposed warding and magic not just of the places you mention (I have my doubts as to Craster's), but the Fist of the First Men, Winterfell itself, and Storms End, comparing and contrasting them and the reactions of those going to or barred from there.