Edd Tollett's One Vote Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Come on let's be serious. There were not even the remote possibility that they would freed the most precious prisoner(s). They are not that stupid, they may be bad persons but not stupid,I think that if there had been an official agreement between them "Jaime for Sansa and Arya" that they would have gone with it and honored it. Jaime was a skilled fighter and there was a war going on. Sansa and Arya were virtually useless until Robb, Bran and Rickon died and they suddenly had a "claim" to the North. The reason they don't trade isn't because they don't think the Lannisters will honor it but because Jaime is a much more important piece than those two girls. Now, how Cat freed him was less official, so I agree that saying she could for certain know the Lannisters would honor it is ridiculous. I personally would expect then to cop out and try and twist it so that they could "repay" them in some other way. However, seeing as they are a family KNOWN for always repaying their debts, it's not crazy for Cat to hold on to some chance that they might honor it. Also, I think it was pretty clear in Tyrion's chapters that he would have honored it. Jaime also is doing everything in his power to try and save Sansa. I agree, he might have changed after he lost his hand but he equally might have decided to honor it even if Brienne had delivered him to KL safe and whole. In fact, I can completely see Jaime sending Sansa off with Brienne the same way he was sent off with only her as protection, and fully expecting them to die along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 [snip] By the time Cat freed Jaime, Bran and Rickon were already *dead* iirc. So Sansa (and Arya) were valuable or they would be valuable, Jaime on the other hand wasn’t. I believe that is not only safe enough but pretty sure to believe that neither Jaime nor Tyrion would honor a deal made at swordpoint. We they should do it anyway? Tyrion almost died when Cat arrested him like Jaime did. Why they should give their most valuable prisoners? Just because Cat freed Jaime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edd Tollett's One Vote Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 By the time Cat freed Jaime, Bran and Rickon were already *dead* iirc. So Sansa (and Arya) were valuable or they would be valuable, Jaime on the other hand wasn’t. I believe that is not only safe enough but pretty sure to believe that neither Jaime nor Tyrion would honor a deal made at swordpoint. We they should do it anyway? Tyrion almost died when Cat arrested him like Jaime did. Why they should give their most valuable prisoners? Just because Cat freed Jaime? In regards to the "Bran and Rickon were already dead", yes they were when Cat freed Jaime, I meant that before this all happened (when a deal was still on the table, but no one besides Cat wanted to take it), the Lannisters would have honoured the deal. Afterwards, I admitted that there would be no guarantee of them doing so, and even agree that I wouldn't think they would. However, I think that the fact that they are known for paying their debts make Cat's belief that there was a chance they might send Sansa and Arya back not completely insane. They had offered Sansa and Arya for Jaime before, and Cat was sending them Jaime. A Lannister always pays his debts. It was a gamble but it wasn't certain to fail. I don't think even Cat was a hundred percent certain her plan would work. She was willing to risk everything for just a chance of getting her daughters back alive. It might be safe enough to assume that Jaime and Tyrion wouldn't honour a deal made at sword point, and yet, we see Jaime doing everything in his power to find and help Sansa and trying his best to soothe the Riverlords diplomatically, all to honour just such a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain of the Guard Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Catelyn is the reason that Robb and her are dead. She let Jaime free and Tywin wouldn't of risked killing Robb and Catelyn at the Twins if Brynden still held Jaime captive at Riverrun. But I guess the Freys held Edmure captive, im still not sure whether that would of stopped Brynden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Catelyn is the reason that Robb and her are dead. She let Jaime free and Tywin wouldn't of risked killing Robb and Catelyn at the Twins if Brynden still held Jaime captive at Riverrun. But I guess the Freys held Edmure captive, im still not sure whether that would of stopped Brynden. Then a spy would have freed Jaime seriously Tywin would have found away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edd Tollett's One Vote Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Catelyn is the reason that Robb and her are dead. She let Jaime free and Tywin wouldn't of risked killing Robb and Catelyn at the Twins if Brynden still held Jaime captive at Riverrun. But I guess the Freys held Edmure captive, im still not sure whether that would of stopped Brynden. I'm pretty certain the plans for the Red wedding, or at least, the Frey/Bolton/Lannister alliance were underway before Cat freed Jaime. And even if it were true... Robb would be equally the reason they're dead. He sent Theon North, which lost him Winterfell and the Boltons, and married Jeyne, which lost him the Freys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Golden Wolf Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Theon being sent to Balon was a show of good faith that Robb was sincere in his offer of an alliance between the Kingdom of the North and the Kingdom of the Iron Islands. How was he to know that Balon would be nursing a misguided grudge towards the North and be planning to invade it? And even with Theon the Iron Born were only gotten a hold of the poor western coast of the North and Moat Caillin(Sp?), and had not even made any headway to taking any of the richer parts. and while the some parts were easily captured the North would have gotten the Iron Born out eventually. there were still fighting men to be raised in the eastern part of Westeros especially when it come to Manderly's forces and Lady Dustin. If Rodrick had not left just a token force to guard Winterfell and tried to lead the forces personally he could have just waited for forces to marshaled by those two lords and just focused on getting people together from the areas around Winterfell which would not have called for taking the entire garrison left at Winterfell. Rodrick dropping the ball on properly defending Winterfell is what caused Robb to truly lose the North. Edmure was just an incompetent leader. he should have kept his forces together instead of trying to protect every little village. Catelyn only truly messed up in two places: Capturing Tyrion and then heading to the Vale and letting Jaime go free. everything else was not her fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymeria Stone Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Umm if you cant trust him yes lock him or have somebody watch him... Littlefinger killed Jon Arryn... not the lannisters... Littlefinger challlenged Brandon for the right to marry her.... and she didnt know he thought he was.... she knew her sister was crazy after the Tyrion trial... her daughters worry with her is dead like the two she was watching.... She couldnt even get dying right... theon's head was the leverage.... and apparently that didnt matter to Balon... credit for Theon idea granted if blame for Freys and Littlefinger and Lysa and Tyrion accepted.. Judging an choice based on unforseeable events is either right or it is not... She trusted him, but he lied and didn't fall, but got thrown by Jaime She had no way to know that. She didn't love Littlefinger, and knowing her sister was crazy after the trial was useless. The point is that she didn't know that before. That sentence made no sense. Not her fault at all. What? Theon was a hostage, he shouldn't have been sent as an envoy. Robb screwed up, he should have listened to Cat, as he said after everything happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 She trusted him, but he lied and didn't fall, but got thrown by Jaime She had no way to know that. She didn't love Littlefinger, and knowing her sister was crazy after the trial was useless. The point is that she didn't know that before. That sentence made no sense. Not her fault at all. What? Theon was a hostage, he shouldn't have been sent as an envoy. Robb screwed up, he should have listened to Cat, as he said after everything happened. Don't try on his useless ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Again both Tyrion and Jaime seem like they would have been up to it if they had the power to do so. Again both Tyrion and Jaime seem like they would have been up to it if they had the power to do so. But would Tywin or Cercie (the Hand and Regent) allow the deal to happen. Plus there's the whole fact that the deal was a lie to begin with. It promised Arya as well, who the Lannister's never had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 But would Tywin or Cercie (the Hand and Rent) allow the deal to happen. Plus there's the whole fact that the deal was a lie to begin with. It promised Arya as well, who the Lannister's never had Tywin still wasn't at King's Landing when she released Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Tywin still wasn't at King's Landing when she released Jaime. still your over looking the fact that Tyrion's deal was a lie, or at least half of it was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Edit: Wrong Post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Wow, this became even more of a train wreck than the usual Catelyn thread, that's remarkable stuff. So much terrible arguments repeated over and over again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 A Lannister always repays his debts. It's one of the things they're most known for. I don't know if they would have, but it's not crazy of Cat to think that they would. and I am sure the Lannisters marching the girls to Cat's grave would have been the usual lannister payment...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Half the army?? What? How did they lose half the army? Freeing Jaime lost them the Karstarks. I could be wrong but I don't believers at the Karstarks were so large that they represented half of Robb's army.That said, I agree that Cats decision was not a wise one strategically. She is at fault for this. However, it is a realistic decision for a mother to make. To me, it simply makes Cat human.Fine Cat is human.... but then so is Robb who got with Jayne during his grief over Bran and Rickon. realistic decision for a mother to make.... Hmmm if being a mother is losing your shit when something bad happens and ignoring the kids otherwise.... yes it is what a mother would do...Cat only seems to have any sort of motherly instinct when her kids are dead or injured.... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 You are TV watcher, Karstark brought 2000 men . Losing Bran and Rickon cost half the army... perhaps an exaggeration... Some from the Freys and some from the Karstarks.... Via grief of Robb and Cat..... It was a crushing blow to lose both..... Now here is why one should blame Cat more for the red wedding: had he Starks still held Jamie... the lannisters could not risk assassination without risking Jamie..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edd Tollett's One Vote Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Fine Cat is human.... but then so is Robb who got with Jayne during his grief over Bran and Rickon. realistic decision for a mother to make.... Hmmm if being a mother is losing your shit when something bad happens and ignoring the kids otherwise.... yes it is what a mother would do... Cat only seems to have any sort of motherly instinct when her kids are dead or injured.... . Yes? Robb is human? I certainly never suggested he wasn't. I thought that was what made his fate so tragic. He (and Cat) made the decisions that led to their downfall but they were all very human decisions. I don't see how Cat ignored her kids... she chose to go with the one who she thought would need her the most. I mean, come one, she had five kids and they were all in different places, she couldn't be with all of them! I personally might have stayed with the three year old, but Cat obviously figured that Robb was the one most in need of her. People seem to forget that Robb was also her son. And the instinct to save/protect one's children would be increased if said kids were dead/injured. She lost two of her sons, who she had left in a safe place, it was only natural that she would begin to panic more about her daughters. And as I've already said, freeing Jaime was an utterly ridiculous move strategically. I don't think anyone would argue that it wasn't. However, at that point Cat would have done anything if it would simply have increased the chances of her daughters being alright. And yes, I think that being willing to try anything in a seemingly hopeless situation to save your children is a realistic decision for a mother to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Losing Bran and Rickon cost half the army... perhaps an exaggeration... Some from the Freys and some from the Karstarks.... Via grief of Robb and Cat..... It was a crushing blow to lose both..... Now here is why one should blame Cat more for the red wedding: had he Starks still held Jamie... the lannisters could not risk assassination without risking Jamie..... And who's fault is that? Rodrik's. You do realize Tywin would just add some spies to Riverrun to save Jaime? The plans were set at montion when winterfell was lost that is why Bolton had a good amount of Robb's men killed at Duskendale. Frey left because of Jeyne. Karstark men were actually lost because Robb did not imprison like the Tullys said. Edit- stop pretending you read the books and crack one open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyinblack Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Catelyn is responsible for bringing Tywin's wrath on the riverlands by similar logic. As in, she's the main fault for Tywin's wrath and not Tywin himselfNed sending Beric after Gregor was what brought Tywin down on the Riverlands just as Tywin had planned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.