Are people too harsh on the Tullys?

[StarkInWinterfell]

Yes. Absolutely.

Clearly Edmure made a mistake but Robb should have told him the entire plan. Edmure's thinking was understandable. He cares for his smallfolk and seems a generally decent guy. He may not be badass or some great battle commander but still.. give the guy some credit. He's a good guy which is rare enough in Westeros. I understanding being frustrated by him if you compare him to Blackfish or other more exciting characters, but I find him entirely sympathetic.

Catelyn's words to Jon were cruel. Obviously. But she was distraught and lashing out at the bastard she resented. People seem to complain about her treatment of Jon more than Jon does himself. I never got the impression she hated him either, she just didn't love him. And like I said before she resented him. Part of the blame has to go to Ned because in being so cagey about Jon's mother, he made Cat more insecure. For all she knew, Jon was the child of some true love of Ned's life.

Sure, it might have been nice if Cat had loved Jon as her own but she didn't. So? She was not obligated to. She probably had too much pride to let him in considering what he represented to her. Her priority was fighting for her own children which she felt (however wrongly) Jon might threaten.

As far as I'm concerned, Jon didn't have some awful childhood and it always vaguely annoys me when people reference Cat's attitude towards him as though she scarred him for life. He had it a heck of a lot better than 99% of bastards out there. He wasn't unloved. It's not fair how Cat treated him but it makes her far more realistic and understandable as a person.

ETA: The thing that annoyed me most about Cat is letting Jaime go. Even that, I think most would understand her motivation as a mother. Perhaps it's the fact that Jon and Tyrion are so popular and they're two of the people she 'wronged' that makes some so unforgiving towards her.

[David Selig]

And the moment that Robert would kill a child you would be correct.

So let's me get this straight - sending an assassin to murder a 13 year pregnant girl is OK. Hitting your own son so hard he almost died is OK. Rewarding the murderers of a baby and 2 year old kid is OK. Not taking care of a whole dozen of your own bastard children is OK. But Cat being cold towards Jon Snow and saying one bad thing top him is totally unforgivable and terrible stuff.

[Nittanian]

As is clearly stated within the novels, this criticism is completely justified because Edmure's actions directly interfere with Robb's plans. Not knowing is not an acceptable answer, when given orders to hold a castle the exact opposite of what you should then do is engage in large scale battles.

Martyn Rivers' scout tells Catelyn in ACOK that "His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear" (emphasis mine). If this is an accurate command, then Edmure acts correctly in preventing Tywin from entering the westerlands. Edmure has no knowledge of Robb's supposed trap and he is allowing Robb's horse to continue raiding the westerlands by preventing Tywin from marching to the rescue. If it is an inaccurate command and Robb wanted Edmure to remain inside Riverrun, then the miscommunication between Robb and Edmure has spread through the rivermen, including Frey scouts, Lord Tytos Blackwood, and Lord Jonos Bracken.

[harry_dresden]

In no way is it a ''petty slight'' to have the man you will be married to the for the forseeable future admit to loving the woman who incidentally was also loved by the man who you really wished to marry...on your wedding night, while you're fucking.

Actually it was. Oh boo hoo he whispered another girls name its totally okay to be angry at that over a decade later....not

I don't recall Cersei ever remembering the CR twins as a petty slight? IIRC, we hear about them from another POV. Either way, it's inexcusable to kill two children, which coincidentally Catelyn does not do to Jon.

I remember reading it in AGOT in a Ned POV but she did have them killed imo and thus she couldn't get over a petty slight.

It's not legitimate at all, you haven't made a case.

The difference between her hating Jon and her murdering Jinglebell is what we're discussing, in case you hadn't noticed. They are not at all the same. Murdering Jinglebell is roughly equivalent to her bullying Jon in this comparison, not hating Jon. i.e. it is not okay to bully Jon, it is not okay to murder Jinglebell...but you should't criticise her for hating Jon and you shouldn't criticise her for hating Jinglebell, innocent though they may be.

I'm not saying she hated Jinglebell at that particular moment, but what I am saying is that she just aimed for the most defenseless party in both Jon and Jinglebell's case. Its Catelyn's cowardice. She went for the easier target circumstances be damned. I don't care about that. I care about the result in JB's case.

I'm not accusing Cat of bullying Jon either, she was distant but bully is too far.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So...we are in agreement then?

If he had stayed at just hating him without the rest yes.

[Jasta11]

So let's me get this straight - sending an assassin to murder a 13 year pregnant girl is OK. Hitting your own son so hard he almost died is OK. Rewarding the murderers of a baby and 2 year old kid is OK. Not taking care of a whole dozen of your own bastard children is OK. But Cat being cold towards Jon Snow and saying one bad thing top him is totally unforgivable and terrible stuff.

It's funny how Jon himself almost never thinks back to Catelyn's so-called abuse. It doesn't seem to have scarred him much, and he got over it understanding it was a shitty situation for all involved. Yet some people treat it like Cat crosses the moral event horizon by being cold to him.

It's probably the worse piece of fandom overreaction if you ask me. For Cat not to feel resentment, she'd have to be a freaking saint. And since she loves Ned, she's can't resent him. That makes her human, not some kind of demonic wiked step-mother.

[StarkInWinterfell]

It's funny how Jon himself almost never thinks back to Catelyn's so-called abuse. It doesn't seem to have scarred him much, and he got over it understanding it was a shitty situation for all involved. Yet some people treat it like Cat crosses the moral event horizon by being cold to him.

It's probably the worse piece of fandom overreaction if you ask me. For Cat not to feel resentment, she'd have to be a freaking saint. And since she loves Ned, she's can't resent him. That makes her human, not some kind of demonic wiked step-mother.

All of this.

And Jinglebell!? Bloomin' heck, she was completely desperate and trying to save Robb's life. She just wanted a hostage. If you'd offered her somebody else I'm sure she'd have taken it. She'd have loved a different hostage that Walder Frey might actually give a damn about (though I'm not sure he'd have let Robb live for any of them).

[harry_dresden]

1. Basically, you're presenting a lack of sympathy for Cersei, and an appalling ignorance of the ramifications this had on their marriage and Cersei's happiness. Not to mention the morality of the situation, of which there is none.

As if Cersei deserves sympathy. Even at that point(the night Robert whispered Lyanna), the stain of Melara is enough for me not to care for Cersei's happiness.

2. This argument is so flawed I don't even know why I'm bothering. How can you say it's okay to criticise Catelyn for hating Jon based on the fact that in a vaguely similar situation Cersei actually went and killed two kids?

Okay I admit this is kind of weak looking back just ignore.

3. ...So Catelyn is a coward. Right. *round of applause*

It took her a fortnight to round up the courage to ask Ned about Jon. She clearly wasn't the bravest about the whole Ned/Jon situation. Not everyone is completely brave in every form. Some people are brave in battle but chicken shit in moral situations. Catelyn takes the cowardly way by aiming towards Jon. In some ways Cat is brave. In this way Cat is cowardly. Was Robert Baratheon a brave man? Courage is not a white/black thing.

Circumstances are immensely important, and if you think you can get away with ignoring them by saying ''I don't care about that'' then go put this on > :dunce: . With Jinglebell, she was completely desperate and he was the best opportunity she had to save her son. With Jon...again, you fail to accept that I'm not defending her bullying Jon. She targeted him and he was only a child, which is unfair. It's not at all the same thing for her to hate him, which isn't an example of cowardice.

Its an example of moral cowardice. Common sense dictates that Ned should be blamed. And I am well aware of why she aimed at JB, but the point is, she still targeted the man, still targeted her hatred towards Jon. I'm sorry, but I think she does target the weak and its cowardice

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

Where are people getting that Catelyn hates Jon? Resents him, yes - jealous, yes, cold and distant, okay. Hate is a very strong feeling and word to use and I don't see that going on there. Ned is to blame for the situation between Jon & Cat; applying 21st century standards of step-parent relationships to a middle ages story is strange to say the least.

She has legitimate reasons to feel the way that she does towards Jon and Ned never took any steps to rectify this problem. He made it worse by forbidding anyone to speak of it and by never explaining anything to anyone about Jon. Now, I subscribe to the popular theory on Jon and believe Ned had good reason, but in the course of the story the characters don't know this and are left in the dark. Yet, they (Jon and Cat) love Ned - so they accept his choices. The fact that Catelyn was able to work past Ned's "trangression" and further insult of having his "bastard" on public display throughout his life and to build a life and loving home with Ned says a lot about her character. For comparison's sake - look at the marriage b/n Cesei and Robert. She doesn't interfere in her children loving and forming close relationships with Jon, etc. But she does fiercely protect her children's rights as any mother would.

I do think taking Tyrion was a mistake, but I don't villify her for it like others do. Seriously, she gets raked through the coals for this while other characters get pats on the head for equally bad decisions.

I would absolutely do the same thing she did with Jaime if I thought I'd get my children back. So I'm on her side on that one. It was a military mistake but I get it and would do the exact same thing, if it only gave my children an inkling of a chance at life.

Catelyn is one of the best written characters in the series. She's so real and that GRRM really understands how women and mothers think and feel is wonderful. I find her to be so completely relatable.

I also don't see that much Edmure hate and while, he's occasionally a doofus - he's a good guy and the only high lord we see that actually seems to care about the common people.

[UVA]

It's funny how Jon himself almost never thinks back to Catelyn's so-called abuse. It doesn't seem to have scarred him much, and he got over it understanding it was a shitty situation for all involved. Yet some people treat it like Cat crosses the moral event horizon by being cold to him.

It's probably the worse piece of fandom overreaction if you ask me. For Cat not to feel resentment, she'd have to be a freaking saint. And since she loves Ned, she's can't resent him. That makes her human, not some kind of demonic wiked step-mother.

Yes. And again, to expect that Cat treat Jon as a step mother is wrong standard to judge her in this context.

[harry_dresden]

I'm sorry, but who is saying that Cat has to treat Jon like a loving mother or Cat has to be a stepmother to Jon?

There seems to be some strawmanning going on here.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

It seems that the Cat-Jon debacle would all have been much less troublesome if Ned had jst been honest with one or.both of them. Ned is an ass

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I've seen all and all the same arguments being tossed over, and as always, I found myself agreeing to Leap, David Selig and UVA. The same rehashed arguments against Catelyn based on, well, not Jon Snow's thoughts, that's for sure.

Yet, I feel obliged to say again. Catelyn was not Jon Snow's step-mother, she had no obligation whatsoever to him, and it's unfair to hold such high standards for her. She had no reason to love Jon Snow or even like him, and her reasons for keeping her distance (Abuse is usually tossed over, even when George himself has denied such claims. We now have "emotional abuse" as an argument, apparently) and giving him cold looks. But what's more baffling to me is the inherently hypocrisy over such matter. We see, over and over again, arguments about Jon Snow's treatment, and how he suffered, but no sympathy to characters that have suffered much more abuse (See: Daenerys Stormborn.) Next to Dany, Jon suffered virtually nothing, yet some of his fans only use the abuse card when It's beneficial to his character, never mind the circumstances or other characters. Truth is, Catelyn wasn't right to treat Jon Snow as she did. But does she really deserves that much hate for an act that even Jon doesn't seem to be traumatized for it?

Jinglebell was an innocent party, but Catelyn was negotiating for her son's life. That's hardly a situation that makes me feel sympathetic for Walder Frey's lost, a lost himself claimed to be almost useless. Catelyn wasn't killing for pleasure, that was a hard, emotional situation. Of course, killing is not the right thing, but I have a hard time holding that against her. Not to mention that seeing her last son murdered in front of her is a special case, not to mention her madness at the end of the chapter. That's not being coward, that's just the context of the scene. I'm pretty sure if she was able to reach Walder, she would have.

[Chatty Duelist]

It seems that the Cat-Jon debacle would all have been much less troublesome if Ned had jst been honest with one or.both of them. Ned is an ass

Oh crap.

[Fae Boleyn]

I doubt very much she was outright abusive; in the scene at Bran's bedside she's half mad with worry/grief, and while I love Jon as well his feeling about Cat grudging him food reads more like teenage exaggeration. I'm pretty sure if Catelyn was deliberately cruel - instead of largely not acknowledging him - we'd hear of it from one of the other POVs we get of the Stark family. The most we get is Robb checking on his mother's reaction in the Bran scene, when it's already clear she's a mess.

Now, I'm not saying her attitude was right. She should have blamed Ned. But as we see, Cat is nearly as devoted to duty as Stannis. It's her duty to accept what her husband does, to do her best to love him. Redirecting the anger toward Jon is the only way she can, it's a coping mechanism. It isn't a good thing, but it's as much a product of the situation Ned created as anything.

I blame Ned for the Cat and Jon mess above anyone, including Cat. Seriously, how did he ever think it would go well, taking into account the mistrust of bastards, the fact that bastards or their heirs can threaten trueborn lines,and the fact that aside from Walder Frey no highborn lord has raised his bastards alongside his wife and their kids except maybe in Dorne? (Red Ronnet's son Rolland Storm, the Sand Snakes, and Gerion Lannister's daughter Joy Hill were all children of unmarried men.) Robert considered bringing Mya to court but for one, it's Robert, for another she predated his marriage by several years and would be less an insult to some women.

As for Edmure, leave him alone! :-P He was trying to defend his smallfolk, he's just about the only lord who genuinely cares enough to inconvenience himself by taking them in, and Robb left crap orders. As for Edmure and Roslin, we only have second hand views, what they'll let outsiders see and know. We can't judge on that at all; not until and unless we see them more privately. It's in their interests, because of the baby, to have a united front.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Oh crap.

Yes. I said it.... :leaving:

[UVA]

I'm sorry, but who is saying that Cat has to treat Jon like a loving mother or Cat has to be a stepmother to Jon?

There seems to be some strawmanning going on here.

Please, not strawmanning. Cat has legitimate reasons to be angry about Jon's presence and upbringing in her household. Cat's failing here though is that she focuses her anger about the situation on Jon, whereas Ned should be the target. That said, much of the harsh criticism of Cat among the fandom seems to stem from more modern assumptions and expectations drawn from the concept of step motherhood, and this makes Cat much less sympathetic, to many (shockingly) a villain. If we don't insist that Cat treat Jon more like how we understand a step mother ought to behave, then she isn't a villain/coward/bitch whatever as you and JQC repeatedly construe her as.

It seems that the Cat-Jon debacle would all have been much less troublesome if Ned had jst been honest with one or.both of them. Ned is an ass

Yep, Ned enforced and supported the tension between Cat and Jon.

[Nittanian]

In which case, we need to know how the orders were passed along before we place blame.

If the orders were passed in person, then clearly Edmure is at fault because the orders were indeed to ''Hold Riverrun'' and this random scout has no clue what he's talking about.

If the orders were passed via scouts, then Edmure is still at fault because he shouldn't be engaging in large scale warfare based on vague orders.

If Edmure should not have been guarding the rear, Robb should share some of the blame for issuing vague orders, IMO. If allowing Tywin to return to the westerlands was truly Robb's plan, he should have communicated that to Edmure, who is vital to the plan's success and is the acting liege lord of the riverlands during Hoster's illness.

[Sullen]

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

You forgot the "you know", man.

Like, I don't want to bust your balls, but you need to respect the sanctity of the Dude's word, man.

OT: People are way too harsh on Edmure, Cat, and Lysa... but Hoster doesn't get enough flak if you ask me.

[TheSnape]

1.)Catelyn is criticized for hating Jon, despite this hatred being justified (The walking, talking reminder that the honorable Lord Eddard Stark...FUCKED ANOTHER WOMAN!)

2.)Is criticized for arresting Tyrion, at the time, and from her own knowledge, this was deftly done. And even if he didn't do it, she had a valuable hostage just in case.

1.) A valid criticism. She treats him badly for no good reason. If R+L=J is true, I am going to laugh so hard at her, because the only reason she had for mistreating Jon is gone.

2.)What evidence did she have that Tyrion did it?