Chatty Duelist Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 1.) A valid criticism. She treats him badly for no good reason. If R+L=J is true, I am going to laugh so hard at her, because the only reason she had for mistreating Jon is gone. Refer to thread. Pages 1 through 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Please, not strawmanning. Cat has legitimate reasons to be angry about Jon's presence and upbringing in her household. Cat's failing here though is that she focuses her anger about the situation on Jon, whereas Ned should be the target. That said, much of the harsh criticism of Cat among the fandom seems to stem from more modern assumptions and expectations drawn from the concept of step motherhood, and this makes Cat much less sympathetic, to many (shockingly) a villain. If we don't insist that Cat treat Jon more like how we understand a step mother ought to behave, then she isn't a villain/coward/bitch whatever as you and JQC repeatedly construe her as. :bang: When did I ever say Cat had to treat Jon like a stepmother? Its completely strawmanning. I said she should treat him with common courtesy and respect. That's not stepmother treatment, that is basic human treatment, especially to a child(Jon wasn't the one who wronged her, it was Ned who did). She doesn't have to treat Jon like a step mother. I have never argued this and I have never called anyone out for not doing so. She didn't have to be a step-mother figure towards him, but she shouldn't have been "distant" the way she was towards him. There's a middle ground to these types of things. Its not a white/black issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alienor Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I don't like Catelyn, but the hate she gets in this forums is way overblown, IMO. She has some good traits and quite some flaws, but unlike some other characters I can understand why she does what she does. I don't agree with her treatment of Jon, but well, other characters have done much worse, and it's really not like she beat him or something. Edmure the fandom is much to hard to, I think. I like him, he is a decent man and while not the cleverst at least he thinks of the smallfolk, something almost no other lord does. He is no BF, but he isn't completly stupid either. He simply does what he thinks is best for all involved, and that is more than can be said about many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 What flaws? Some people like to pretend she has none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Goat Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 The Tully's are not my favorite house, but I don't hate on them. Also, I consider Catelyn and Lysa to be Stark and Arryn respectively. That said... I think that Hoster was the average Great Lord. He loved his children and wished both them and his House to prosper, but he showed himself to quite ruthless in his goals, siding with the rebels like a true opportunist, but marrying of his daughters. I like Catelyn as a literary character, and think she's a very strong and intelligent woman and a great read who's admirable in many ways... but she's to quick to judge and to quick to follow her heart, which often leads to disastrous results. Also her dislike of Jon Snow is misplaced. That said, I felt very sorry for the poor woman. I despise Lysa. SHe was a weak fool, and though he earlier tribulations certainly were sad, her later mental instability and incompetence gives very little room for sympathy. I like Edmure. He might not be very clever, and is lacking in judgement, but he's brave and strong and cares both for his people and his new wife. That makes me like him. I really like Brynden. The Blackfish is a serious badass, and dangerously competent. Despite his years he's the most awesome character coming out of the Riverlands, and is one of the true Stark loyalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeRhaegar Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Early impression bro it does that to many readers. Look at how many people hated jamie and first thats dying out and the same with sansa, the more readers re read you will be amazed on how many change their opinions. I never hated cat (although i do think it was harsh to hate jon, but i disliked her when she freed jamie) but the more i re read i see that most mothers would do the same, it was still her fault though. Edmure well damn pride does that he said it himself he wanted glory and messed up a vague order, it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 :bang: When did I ever say Cat had to treat Jon like a stepmother? Its completely strawmanning. I said she should treat him with common courtesy and respect. That's not stepmother treatment, that is basic human treatment, especially to a child(Jon wasn't the one who wronged her, it was Ned who did). She doesn't have to treat Jon like a step mother. I have never argued this and I have never called anyone out for not doing so. She didn't have to be a step-mother figure towards him, but she shouldn't have been "distant" the way she was towards him. There's a middle ground to these types of things. Its not a white/black issue What should she have done then? The descriptions we have is ''cold'' and ''distant'', the way some people treat others who aren't dear, hell Ned himself was cold and distant to basically everyone but Robert and his family, should we blame him for that too? Are we really going to grudge Cat that she didn't say ''hello'' to Jon enough times? Is it really worth the bother when Jon himself doesn't seem to give much thought about it? Given the standard of Cat's society, not being very kind to her husband's bastard as he was shoved under her nose all the time is actually pretty tame. She never denied him anything, never told Ned he ought to get rid of him, never told her children not to play with him, she just wanted to minimize contacts with Jon, which is pretty understandable. I'm just not seeing why people are so worked up about it. Of all the atrocities perpetrated in these books, a woman not being personally kind to a product of her husband's infidelity seems pretty meaningless, and many, many other characters have suffered far worse abuse without the perpetrator being anywhere near as hated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 What should she have done then? The descriptions we have is ''cold'' and ''distant'', the way some people treat others who aren't dear, hell Ned himself was cold and distant to basically everyone but Robert and his family, should we blame him for that too? I'm sorry, but can you please cite evidence for the bolded? I disagree with it. Cat never called Jon by his name until right before her bitchiest moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Well the two of them did lose the war for Robb, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Well the two of them did lose the war for Robb, lol Robb lost the war for Robb, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Please, not strawmanning. Cat has legitimate reasons to be angry about Jon's presence and upbringing in her household. Cat's failing here though is that she focuses her anger about the situation on Jon, whereas Ned should be the target. That said, much of the harsh criticism of Cat among the fandom seems to stem from more modern assumptions and expectations drawn from the concept of step motherhood, and this makes Cat much less sympathetic, to many (shockingly) a villain. If we don't insist that Cat treat Jon more like how we understand a step mother ought to behave, then she isn't a villain/coward/bitch whatever as you and JQC repeatedly construe her as. Yep, Ned enforced and supported the tension between Cat and Jon. I agree! Also these posts seem rather familiar. Like the style of them, makes me wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Robb lost the war for Robb, really. keeping thinking that, keep thinking that, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 keeping thinking that, keep thinking that, lol Robb's to blame for Robb's death. He sent Theon to Balon: Lose He gave vague orders to Edmure: Lose He couldn't keep it in his pants: Lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Catelyn is responsible for bringing Tywin's wrath on the riverlands by similar logic. As in, she's the main fault for Tywin's wrath and not Tywin himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 Catelyn is responsible for bringing Tywin's wrath on the riverlands by that logic. Tywin is to blame for raiding the Riverlands. Catelyn didn't force Tywin to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Tywin is to blame for raiding the Riverlands. Catelyn didn't force Tywin to do it. Robb didn't force Theon to do what he did to WF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Robb didn't force Theon to do what he did to WF. That is true. However, whilst Catelyn committed a mistake by capturing Tyrion, her error could have only been really disregarded in hindsight. We, readers, know about Tyrion's innocence. Catelyn Stark does not, and has evidence otherwise. And he does spot her. While on Robb's case, he was given sound advice about sending Theon to the Iron Islands, a mistake he blames himself afterwards for doing it, and he chooses freely to break his vows to Walder Frey and not exchange his sister for Jaime Lannister (Another mistake he comes to regret later). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Catelyn is responsible for bringing Tywin's wrath on the riverlands by similar logic. As in, she's the main fault for Tywin's wrath and not Tywin himself You're kidding, right? Tywin had been gearing up for war way before the Catnapping. Butterbumps made a great thread about that some time ago, and the bottom line was that this accusation is ridiculous. At worst, Cat hasted the war in the Riverlands a bit. She didn't trigger anything, and is certainly not responsible for Tywin's decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Robb's to blame for Robb's death. He sent Theon to Balon: Lose He gave vague orders to Edmure: Lose He couldn't keep it in his pants: Lose. Right blame Robb for Edmure's screw up, lol I suppose Robb's to blame for freeing Jamie Lannister too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Catelyn Stark does not, and has evidence otherwise. No, she does not. She has a valyrian steel dagger and Petyr's story about how he lost it to Tyrion. That's all she has. Hardly evidence by any reconing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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