JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Yeah, I can really see the logic of that. He's raised as an outsider and a bastard, gets **** from Catelyn, Theon etc. Then he has to go to the Night's Watch and the one opportunity he gets to get Winterfell, he declines it. I can clearly see how he's a Mary Sue...It's my impression, although I might be wrong, that some MS can be quite flawed as well but they "overcome" by the power of the awesomeness. Or at least, that they have a hard life they need to power through so the world can see how they were always simply waiting to flower. Or some shit like that. Bella Swann is a Mary Sue Avatar of the author and she's a mess (Bella, not the author. Well, both are). Just got through with a thread where the "general consensus" was that Sansa was going to take control of the Vale Army, wear ceremonial armor, and lead her 20,000 troops against the Lannisters; her troops would win, because she would "most likely choose a good advisor to assist her". There are definitely Dany and Stannis threads along the same line.I don't want to undermine Sansa, but definitely it has way more sense that either Dany or Stannis (or both) do that. ARYa_Nym, thanks for the GRRM quotes! Interestingly, I've seen people accuse Arya of being a "Mary Sue" as wellShe's not a Mary Sue, she's Batman Montoya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeddinGuest Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Jon has done questionable things and faces consequences all the time. Jon broke his vows for the greater good on a couple occasions where more traditional Mary Sues wouldn't. His actions with Ygritte and killing half-hand to infiltrate the Wildlings. attempting to save who he thinks is his half-sister in Winterfell, attacking Thorne, and it could be argued that even strategizing with Stannis and telling him about the Mountain clans and some other stuff was intruding on realm affairs. These are all fairly gray actions, some blatantly breaking specific parts of vows in order to better service the spirit of what the oaths encapsulate..... Call it plot armor if you want or just having a string of luck partially stemming from past goodwill and some decent improvisation along the way. In either case it's no more glaring than we've seen from other characters throughout the series. Actually, breaking rules and getting away with it is a definite feature of Mary Sues, one of the most notorious Mary Sue/Gary Stus in pop culture, Wesley Crusher (whose first name just happened to be the same as Gene Roddenberry's middle name) in Star Trek: TNG. He constantly broke rules and went above his "pay grade" (and in his early episodes he had no official job on the Enterprise at all, he was just "Dr. Crusher's kid visiting on school break"), but got away with it because he always managed to save the day. Also interestingly, one of the biggest rules in the ST universe, the Prime Directive, is quite similar to the NW vows in terms of supposedly not interfering with the cultures and politics of native cultures, even though both Starfleet and the NW turn out to be not as insulated from realpolitik as it might seem on first glance -- much of the ST series seems to revolve around "how do the heroes manage to bend the Prime Directive, or other rules, to save the day, and to be able to sleep at night". But back OT; there is a difference between "having Mary Sue features" and "being a Mary Sue". The list quoted by ARYa_Nym is instructive, in that while all the Stark kids have Mary Sue traits, that doesn't make them Mary Sues. I think this even applies to Rickon, who, as I recall, at one point he attacks a grown man with an iron sword he found in the Winterfell crypts, and actually beats him (albeit with Shaggydog's help). I can't imagine the average 3-4 year old ever doing that. I just take that as part of the universe, though. I totally agree that Dany and Tyrion have some Mary Sue features as well, but that's not the same as "being Mary Sues". Also, "getting a plot gift" =/= Mary Sue. I doubt anyone would ever accuse Stannis Baratheon of being a Mary Sue, but Mel's shadow babies are one of the biggest plot gifts I can think of anyone getting in the story. (Though you could argue the dragons are more of one.) Stannis would NOT have beat Renly without the shadowbaby, and Renly's death has a lot of impact on the story; not only does it give Stannis the upper hand in the inter-Baratheon war, it sets up the Tyrells jumping over to the Lannister cause, which also has a BIG negative impact on Robb Stark's cause. (People focus on the RW and Robb and Cat's mistakes, but even with full Frey support, I doubt he'd have defeated the Tyrell-Lannister alliance, and even before the RW, he's basically conceded defeat where the Riverlands are concerned, and decided to cut his losses and retreat back North to drive out the Ironborn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 ITT: People dont know what a Mary Sue really is. Everyone loves Mary Sue. Characters will rarely deride Mary Sue unless its out of envy. Mary Sue has everything happen to her in contrived manners. Mary Sue has no flaws. If Mary Sue has flaws, they are often seen as cute or endearing or they have no real impact on the story at all. Coming off as an informed flaw where we are told Mary Sue is flawed but never comes to head or shown. Mary Sue is wish fulfillment of the highest caliber. Mary Sue never ever faces real consequences for her actions. The villains even love Mary Sue and want to fight her for some sick twisted pleasure. If not that, they secretly are in love with Mary Sue and want her for themselves. The villains will even deliberately mess up to make Mary Sue look good. Mary Sue has abilities and items or whatever that usually are not consistent in the story's universe. Example would be a main character in the LotR universe having something similar to a lightsaber. Bella Swan in Twilight has an ability revealed in the final book that is completely inconsistent with the rest of the story's universe. Mary Sue always has the upper hand in a situation. Mary Sue always has a physical trait thats either really abnormal in the story's universe or doesnt exist otherwise in that universe. Mary Sue has all the answers. If Mary Sue doesnt have the answer right away, a chapter later, she will have it. Mary Sue will learn new things, but unlike other characters, Mary Sue will master these new things immediately or "is a natural" at said thing. Mary Sue's failures never stick. Mary Sue is untouchable. Characters will never call Mary Sue out on her bullshit. EVER. There is no ambivalence in opinion in-universe on Mary Sue. Characters love her always or hate her because they love her. No one in this series is a Mary Sue. No, not even Dany. Dany has traits but is an obvious deconstruction of the very idea of a Lost Princess/Special Race figure. Jon cannot possibly be a Mary Sue. He is not without visible flaws. He is often called out by other characters. He is not the best fighter in the Watch either. Nothing he does is inconsistent with the universe of ASOIAF. Classic Hero Archetype =/= Mary Sue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 He has practically zero flaws and nothing goes against him. He's never punished for bad decisions or mistakes, Robb gets killed because he couldn't keep it in his pants, Tyrion is exiled because everyone hates him, Eddard is executed for telling Cersei. People get fucked over all the time. And Jon doesn't get even a tap on the wrist. Like literally nothing. I'm not hating or anything, it's just weird that a series full of so many grey characters, there's a morally white guy who does everything right without a single mistake. (Granted he get's stabbed but that doesn't mean anything because let's face it he's coming back. Oh. Another trait of a Mary Sue. Cheating death.) Jon has, in all likelihood, made a big mistake. If he had stuck to his oath in Jon xiii and not decided to prepare to march on Ramsay his command wouldn't have been blown apart and the defence of the wall wouldn't consequently have been weakened, or maybe ruined. If he had just waited and done things properly then he'd have discovered the letter was full of lies anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paeon Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I'd agree he is not a Mary Sue. He has broken his vows proving that he is not a Mary Sue and paid for it, even if fanboys want to explain these mistakes away and say there was no choice whatsoever. If GRRM wanted to make him a Mary Sue, he would have simply wrote in fantastical (or magical) solutions to all of Jon's conflicts. He did kill an officer, even if he was told to do it, the honorable do no wrong character would have simply refused and let himself die for it. He did sleep with Ygritte to go along with the farce. Mr honor would again have martyred himself to not forsake his vows. He did let all of the wildlings through the wall, even if there are numerous Night's Watch members who are dead at the hands of those same wildlings. And did it against the wishes of those he commands. He did make the emotional decision of leaving the wall and attacking a foreign army, doing what no LC has done since the Night's King, rather than staying put and building south side defenses so that the Nights Watch can continue to guard the wall with their entire force which is their sole purpose. I'm not saying these decisions were completely wrong, and I'm not saying they were completely right. Thats the point.There is very rarely a right and wrong in real life and that is Jon's struggle. And this is what has him currently lying on the ground with a bunch of stab wounds. So thank you GRRM for making this perfectly imperfect character who we have grown to love because he reacts to conflicts in a way that we can relate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 the fact that Jon typically chooses the "right" path is incredibly unique and powerful within this story? It's not that unique, Ned, Davos, Brienne, and Sam all have all chose the "right" path as well. I guess when you consider the number of characters, they are a pretty small group, but Jon is definitely not alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Cersei is the only Mary Sue in ASOIAF. She's perfect :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Jon's not a Mary Sue, no matter how much his die-hard fans try to make him. Jon receives plot gifts, but so do others characters. Bloodraven is the closest thing to a Mary Sue in this series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Jon Snow, the character written by GRRM, is not a Mary-Sue. The vision his die-hard followers make of him, however, paint him in such a light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirri Maz Durr Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Cersei is the only Mary Sue in ASOIAF. She's perfect :wub: Couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Can we get a list of all these jon fangirls/boys? I just want to know who to look out for, ya know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow the Omniscient Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 "Edd, fetch me a block."'Cuz those are totally the words of a totally nice guy who has absolutely no flaws. Oh, and cheating death isn't a Mary Sue trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow the Omniscient Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 mary sueWeb definitionsIn fan fiction, a Mary Sue is an idealized character representing the author Now, if we take out the fan-fiction part, we have the idea that Jon Snow is an idealized character that represents G.R.R. Martin. Except, Martin has already stated that Tyrion is his favorite character and probably identifies with him closest. So this is idea of Jon being a Gary-Sue is pretty much impossible to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 "Edd, fetch me a block." That was a pretty flawless line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Cersei is the only Mary Sue in ASOIAF. She's perfect :wub: There was a time Ser, when I felt you were my competitor for our fair queen's noble heart. But that is not the case. It has dawned on me that your intentions towards her grace are not honest. Which means you have already won the competition :frown5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Ed fetch me a block is sort of overrated. Hes just asking for a piece of wood so he can cut a defenseless guys head off. I dont get why thats so badass. Janos was an asshole sure, but really? "fetch me a block" is so idolized, and i dont get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Ed fetch me a block is sort of overrated. Hes just asking for a piece of wood so he can cut a defenseless guys head off. I dont get why thats so badass. Janos was an asshole sure, but really? "fetch me a block" is so idolized, and i dont get it. I bet you jizzed your pants at Stannis' bro nod of approval Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Can we get a list of all these jon fangirls/boys? I just want to know who to look out for, ya know? Nerd joke: They're uncountable. The list cannot exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I bet you jizzed your pants at Stannis' bro nod of approval That was the coolest, badassesst, most superhumanly divine thing about that scene. How dare you mock it Ser? You are not deserving of our fair Queen's ...umm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I bet you jizzed your pants at Stannis' bro nod of approvallol, id say my reaction was only a bit less enthusiastic then that. It is a great scene and all. But I still struggle with fetch me a block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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