Moments of Foreshadowing 8 [TPatQ spoilers]

[Lord Varys]

Not exactly the best topic to start a new thread on that one, but I really wanted to reply to the ongoing Jon vs. Dany theme in the old thread:

The problem to choose a savior can be avoided by considering the possibility that there will be one central savior figure, surrounded by a group of 'knights' or companions (i.e. other dragonriders in the fight against the Others). That's all already in the story. We have Tyrion - himself possibly a half-Targaryen - the sole individual who has good relations with all known and secret Targaryens (or at least he soon will).

Then there are Samwell and Sarella (possibly Jaqen as well) who could serve as a sort of Westerosi faction arguing in favor of Daenerys.

I can't see Jon Snow gathering enough political momentum to claim anything in the foreseeable future, and certainly not in the midst of the Other crisis.

1. He is a member of the Night's Watch. He can't stake a claim to anything.

2. He the bastard son of a convicted traitor. Even if his true heritage was revealed, who would believe it? Who would declare for him? And why?

3. He may have forged some decent alliances as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but he can't possibly use them to make a claim to anything in the South, let alone the Iron Throne.

Anyone south of the Neck would consider his claim to be Rhaegar's lawful son by Lyanna a joke. That could change if he played a crucial role in the fight against the Others and saved everyone's ass, but I'm not sure if he pull this off and survive the ordeal if he is completely on his won. He could get enough support if a (Targaryen) king officially declared him legitimate after the Night's Watch was disbanded. Jon swore an oath to the Old Gods, not to the invented Seven.

As to his role as Azor Ahai: If he were the sole hero, then the whole story could be finished long before Dany even arrived. She would not even need to come to Westeros. Jon is already at the Wall. The hero would be at the right place, all GRRM needed to do was let the Others attack and fail. That would greatly diminish the whole 'the Realm abandoned the Night's Watch' plot thing. The Realm has to pay for not supporting to NW, and it only can pay if the Others attack and successfully breach or circumvent the Wall. Jon can easily survive this - if he is still alive/resurrected, leading a resistance force at the Wall or farther in the South.

But I really can't see Dany coming to Westeros as an 'antagonist' (in the sense that she will oppose the resistance against the Others and/or all the good guys in Westeros). The humans in Westeros should need all the help they can get when the Others finally make their move. And this move should better be really threatening, and not a thing the decimated North and the NW/wildlings can manage on their own. Whoever got that impression should be completely wrong.

And Dany's relationship to deteriorate, either before she arrives or afterwards. Right now there is no reason why they should not forge a tactical alliance. Possible reason could include the Martells deciding that Dany is dead/being pissed about Quentyn's death and marrying Arianne to Aegon, Dany getting background information on Illyrio and Varys from the Tattered Prince. But even then, if the Others are a real threat, it would be a smart and reasonable move to reunite the two Targaryen branches to unite the Realm against the ice monsters and their undead hordes...

The old stuff can be found in here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101984-moments-of-foreshadowing-7-tpatq-spoilers/

[Lyse Stark]

Not exactly the best topic to start a new thread on that one, but I really wanted to reply to the ongoing Jon vs. Dany theme in the old thread:

The problem to choose a savior can be avoided by considering the possibility that there will be one central savior figure, surrounded by a group of 'knights' or companions (i.e. other dragonriders in the fight against the Others). That's all already in the story. We have Tyrion - himself possibly a half-Targaryen - the sole individual who has good relations with all known and secret Targaryens (or at least he soon will).

Then there are Samwell and Sarella (possibly Jaqen as well) who could serve as a sort of Westerosi faction arguing in favor of Daenerys.

I can't see Jon Snow gathering enough political momentum to claim anything in the foreseeable future, and certainly not in the midst of the Other crisis.

1. He is a member of the Night's Watch. He can't stake a claim to anything.

2. He the bastard son of a convicted traitor. Even if his true heritage was revealed, who would believe it? Who would declare for him? And why?

3. He may have forged some decent alliances as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but he can't possibly use them to make a claim to anything in the South, let alone the Iron Throne.

Anyone south of the Neck would consider his claim to be Rhaegar's lawful son by Lyanna a joke. That could change if he played a crucial role in the fight against the Others and saved everyone's ass, but I'm not sure if he pull this off and survive the ordeal if he is completely on his won. He could get enough support if a (Targaryen) king officially declared him legitimate after the Night's Watch was disbanded. Jon swore an oath to the Old Gods, not to the invented Seven.

As to his role as Azor Ahai: If he were the sole hero, then the whole story could be finished long before Dany even arrived. She would not even need to come to Westeros. Jon is already at the Wall. The hero would be at the right place, all GRRM needed to do was let the Others attack and fail. That would greatly diminish the whole 'the Realm abandoned the Night's Watch' plot thing. The Realm has to pay for not supporting to NW, and it only can pay if the Others attack and successfully breach or circumvent the Wall. Jon can easily survive this - if he is still alive/resurrected, leading a resistance force at the Wall or farther in the South.

But I really can't see Dany coming to Westeros as an 'antagonist' (in the sense that she will oppose the resistance against the Others and/or all the good guys in Westeros). The humans in Westeros should need all the help they can get when the Others finally make their move. And this move should better be really threatening, and not a thing the decimated North and the NW/wildlings can manage on their own. Whoever got that impression should be completely wrong.

And Dany's relationship to deteriorate, either before she arrives or afterwards. Right now there is no reason why they should not forge a tactical alliance. Possible reason could include the Martells deciding that Dany is dead/being pissed about Quentyn's death and marrying Arianne to Aegon, Dany getting background information on Illyrio and Varys from the Tattered Prince. But even then, if the Others are a real threat, it would be a smart and reasonable move to reunite the two Targaryen branches to unite the Realm against the ice monsters and their undead hordes...

And yes Daenerys's relationship can and will deteriorate because of her own actions. I think she will do many despicable thing during the course of the DotD. And many of her action there will earn her even more enemies than allies. I actually see Daenerys as a entitled girl who is not above getting what she want by force, but by then it will ALL blow up in her face, by squabbling with FAegon over the throne instead of facing the true threat to the north. And I know that actions can have negative consequences, so if Jon's alliance with the wilding blew up in his face by having Bowen stabbing him, then Daenerys should have negative consequences of her own stemming from the DotD, like all potential allies turning on her after she kills a innocent bystander allied with them, or killing one of the major parties on the enemies, only to earn their enmity. The point with both Dany and Cersei Lannister that GRRM is trying to make is that the pursuit of power for power's sake can and will ulimately bring about a person's downfall.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Now, if you actually see something that could be considered foreshadowing, as per this thread's title...

This should not be fought out in a fresh new thread where you go off topic with such talk, so let's move on.

[Dead Wolf]

Bold Jon Roxton's death and his act of killing Hard Hugh I believe foreshadows Barristan the Bold killing the potentially dangerous dragonrider Victarion who wants the IT for himself like the Hammer, and being slain in battle by his men, who, like Hugh's, live for rapi e and plunder. Rhaegal is the second largest and ferocious of Dany's three, like how Vermithor was the largest and dealiest dragon in Westeros second only to Vhagar.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but in the first Davos chapter:

The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos.

If Lightbringer=the Night's Watch, then the same could be said of the Night's Watch.

[Fire Eater]

Bold Jon Roxton's death and his act of killing Hard Hugh I believe foreshadows Barristan the Bold killing the potentially dangerous dragonrider Victarion who wants the IT for himself like the Hammer, and being slain in battle by his men, who, like Hugh's, live for rapi e and plunder. Rhaegal is the second largest and ferocious of Dany's three, like how Vermithor was the largest and dealiest dragon in Westeros second only to Vhagar.

I don't think Barristan will kill Victarion, but the other way around, but Barristan will be avenged by Dany when she has Drogon roast Victarion in the Dothraki Sea.

I had a different take on the fight between Vermithor, Tessarion, and Seasmoke.

Second Battle of Tumbleton Parallel

She [Dany's silver] was grey as the winter sea, with a mane like silver smoke.

Seasmoke spread his pale grey wings

The dragon ridden by Addam Velaryon was Seasmoke, a pale silver-grey dragon, and I think the dragon is a parallel for Dany's silver. Addam was legitimized into the heir to High Tide. I know one bastard that Dany will run into in Lys: Edric Storm.

Not long after Addam of Hull had proved himself by flying Seasmoke, Lord Corlys went so far as to petition Queen Rhaenyra to remove the taint of bastardy from him and his brother.

I think Edric Storm will be legitimized by Dany at Tyrion's behest to make him their puppet Lord of SE and a Baratheon. I think the decree will be a blanket decree, legitimizing all of Robert's bastards. Addam's brother, Alyn AKA Oakenfist, became Lord of the Tides, so I think the only brother we know Edric has, Gendry, will become Lord of SE. Alyn was also in love with the gawky, shrewd girl, Elaena Targaryen, who was sister to two kings, and cousin to another, and wore her hair short for a while. I think Arya is the Elaena parallel, a gawky, shrewd girl who wore her hair short for a while after Yoren cut it, and is sister to two kings, Robb the Young Wolf who is paralled with the Young Dragon, and Rickon (I think Rickon will be given a brief reign as KitN after Stannis dies) and cousin to another, Jon.

a blacksmith's bastard, a towering man called Hugh the Hammer

The three dragonriders in the Second Battle of Tumbleton are Ulf the White, Hugh the Hammer and Addam Velaryon. Hugh the Hammer, a black-haired large man who uses a hammer, sounds a lot like Robert. I think like Rhaenyra, Dany will have two betrayers, my guesses Brown Ben and possibly Aurane Waters, both descended from the brother of Addam Velaryon, and will think Edric will betray her as well given he is a bastard and/or the Usurper's son, like Rhaenyra thought Addam would betray her for being a bastard.

Singers say Addam had flown from King's Landing to the God's Eye, where he landed on the sacred Isle of Faces took counsel with the Green Men.

Someone will help him escape, possibly the BF, who could have Edric squiring for him, and I think he will take Dany's silver, and, like Addam, try to prove his loyalty. I think he will consult Moqorro who will tell him where the greens' camp is, or where their forces are meeting up. He will rally men to launch a surprise attack on the greens' camp, possibly at Summerhall to win a victory like his father's that he mentioned in ASoS.

The battle between Tessarion and Seasmoke was different . . . they circled, snapping and roaring, spitting fire, but never closing

Tessarion was ridden by Daeron, who shares the name with two Targaryen kings who brought Dorne into their realm, and Daeron aided the Hightowers. Aegon will have Dorne at his side, and I think he will aid the Hightowers in the Battle of Oldtown. The battle between Addam and Daeron's dragons could foreshadow Edric crossing swords with Aegon. It may be an even match given Aegon's skill with a sword as shown with Duck and Edric never missing a morning's work with sword and shield as noted by Davos.

The dance ended when Vermithor rose roaring into the sky.

Seasmoke was the first to die when Vermithor locked his teeth into his neck and ripped his head off

[bold Jon Roxton] thrusting it deep into Hammer's belly, before opening the bastard from groin to throat

I wanted the glory of slaying Robert in single combat, and I did not want the name of butcher. So Robert escaped me and cut down Rhaegar at the Trident. "I failed the father," he [Connington] said, "but I will not fail the son."

The accused turncloak Addam Velaryon, born Addam of Hull, had saved King's Landing from the queen's foes . . . at the cost of his own life.

But then Connington will join the fray, with the haunting memory of Robert killing Rhaegar, and now he sees Robert's son trying to slay (supposedly) Rhaegar's son. He will finally be able to slay Robert in the form of his son, and save Rhaegar in the form of "his son," Aegon. Like Seasmoke against Vermithor, Edric has no chance against an older, more experienced veteran like Connington, who may open him from navel to throat, or decapitate him.

Now, if you actually see something that could be considered foreshadowing, as per this thread's title...

This should not be fought out in a fresh new thread where you go off topic with such talk, so let's move on.

I agree; Lord Varys ,no offense, but if you start a new "Moments of Foreshadowing Thread," stick to the title, and provide some foreshadowing instead of continuing an off topic conversation you were having in the previous thread. You could/should have at least provided some foreshadowing, otherwise what is the point of a "Moments of Foreshadowing" thread without foreshadowing?

[Dead Wolf]

I don't think Barristan will kill Victarion, but the other way around, but Barristan will be avenged by Dany when she has Drogon roast Victarion in the Dothraki Sea.

I had a different take on the fight between Vermithor, Tessarion, and Seasmoke.

When I made comparisons between Rhaegal and Vermithor I only meant to emphasize similarities between Vic and Hugh since many people seem to think Vic will ride Rhaegal

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but in the first Davos chapter:

The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos.

If Lightbringer=the Night's Watch, then the same could be said of the Night's Watch.

I like it.

[Dead Wolf]

@Fire Eater

I doubt Edric would be permitted to fight in the battle at Oldtown. He is only like 12 years old, and if Dany posessed a puppet Lord of SE she would leave him at a strong castle under guard to ensure the loyalty of the other storm lords.

[RumHam]

Now, if you actually see something that could be considered foreshadowing, as per this thread's title...

This should not be fought out in a fresh new thread where you go off topic with such talk, so let's move on.

The old thread was locked and Lord Varys was continuing a discussion about who is the prophesied hero of the story. So he started the next version of the thread to continue that conversation. I don't really think there's any burden of relevance for the first post in a continuation of an old thread. The conversation was ongoing and doesn't suddenly become irrelevant because the thread hits four hundred posts.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Now, if you actually see something that could be considered foreshadowing, as per this thread's title...

This should not be fought out in a fresh new thread where you go off topic with such talk, so let's move on.

Absolutely!

[Fire Eater]

The man wore the mask of a Brazen Beast, the fearsome likeness of a tiger. As he dropped the weapon to try and pry apart Viserion's jaws, flame gouted form the tiger's mouth.

There are clues pointing to Tyrion mounting Viserion, and I think this foreshadows Tyrion destroying the tigers, or Volantenes, or possibly the tiger cloaks siding with Dany with flames coming from his mouth a reference to them siding with Dany, the dragon.

@Fire Eater
I doubt Edric would be permitted to fight in the battle at Oldtown. He is only like 12 years old, and if Dany posessed a puppet Lord of SE she would leave him at a strong castle under guard to ensure the loyalty of the other storm lords.

I never stated anywhere that he would fight at Oldtown if you look carefully. Besides, Edric would want to be in the thick of things, and I stated that he would escape and do this battle out of his own volition.

[Lord Varys]

On the descendants of Elaena Targaryen and Alyn Velaryon:

We already know that Rennifer Longwaters, the chief-undergoaler of the Red Keep is supposedly a direct descendant of the male child of Elaena Targaryen by Alyn Velaryon, Jon Waters. Considering the current standing of the Longwaters line I consider it very unlikely that Jon and Jeyne were able to marry into a noble family. Alyn may not have been around to broker a decent marriage for them, and Elaena cannot have been that old (and thus not very influential) when her twins were born.

As to other descendants of Jon, well, Jacelyn Bywater could also come from a Waters line. The fact that Varys chose him a new Lord Commander of the City Watch may suggest that he was a Targaryen loyalist at heart, and his heritage could explain why that was the case.

Aurane Waters is either the bastard son of Lord Monford Velaryon, or the son of one of his unknown siblings. My money is on Monford, though, since there is a very good chance that only the bastard of the current Lord of Driftmark has a very good chance to earn the moniker 'the Bastard of Driftmark', and rise among the men. Monford's son and the current Lord of Driftmark, Monterys Velaryon, is somewhat younger than Aurane, so I guess the fact that Monford had only a bastard son for quite some time could explain why Aurane rose to prominence on Driftmark.

[The point in starting this thread was indeed to continue the on-going discussion. I was tired yesterday, had already written the posting, and could not post it due to the thread closing while I wrote it. That's a frustrating experience in itself, and experience tells me that people who contributed to a thread of the same name would also give it's successor at least a glance...]

I can see Edric Storm returning to the story if Dany is traveling to Westeros via Lys - which seems to be a given at this point. But since Dany is not going to have any dragonseed dragonriders (besides, possibly, Tyrion), I don't think she will be betrayed by either Aurane of Edric. Aurane is now ideally positioned to declare for Aegon. He is an independent pirate who has severely betrayed and harmed King Tommen, controls a small fleet of really big warships, and Aegon is in need of a navy. He could be made Lord of Driftmark in exchange for his help, and I guess Connington will contact him sooner rather than later.

Aurane could meet Dany in the Stepstones later on, but since she will already have a navy when she sails to Westeros, I don't think she would be needing Aurane.

No idea, by the way, why Dany should want to legitimize all of Robert's bastards. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Edric Storm is the son of Robert Baratheon and a Florent. He is noble on both sides, and the only bastard on Robert ever recognized. He is the only who could be of use in the political game (Mya Stone, too, perhaps, if she would not be female - she is the only child Robert ever loved, although it does not seem as if she was ever recognized). But no one even knows that Gendry is Robert's son. It can't be proven, and no one would care if it could be proven. No one cares about an armorer's apprentice in a society like Westeros.

I'd be very surprised, by the way, if Connington would live to see Aegon's death. The man is a dead man walking, and I've a feeling that Connington will be the first victim of the plague he has brought to Westeros rather than live to see his foster son die. In fact, Aegon himself may execute Connington. If anyone else catches greyscale, Aegon, Lemore, and Haldon will know who is responsible. And they may kill Connington to blame somebody for the plague as well as to cover their own tracks. It can't be known publicly that Aegon VI Targaryen has brought the Grey Plague to Westeros, or can it?

Connington is smart enough to not infect Aegon or anyone important, but what about the servants who wash his clothes, and clean his chambers and plates? One of them should catch it soon enough, and then it's going to spread.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm not sure about Aurane taking Driftmark. He may try to get himself legitimized considering he fashions himself as a lord but if he is someone who was raised with Velaryons then perhaps he would not want to either usurp or kill 6 year old Monterys. I don't know what exact relation Monterys is to him. Perhaps his little brother or cousin.

[Mithras]

Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. “Life is not a song, sweetling,” he’d told her. “You may learn that one day to your sorrow.”

There is a hero and he has a song. He is the prince that was promised, his is the song of ice and fire.

When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard, Brienne’s breath caught in her throat. Black and red the ripples ran, deep within the steel. Valyrian steel, spell-forged. It was a sword fit for a hero. When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not.

Black and Red are the colors of Targaryens. Jon and Robb used to take the names of the legendary heroes while they were training together. I think Jon’s ultimate sword is Oathkeeper. He may have the scabbard reworked and get rid of the lions to have dragons with ruby eyes. I don’t think he would give a new name to the sword just like he kept the name of the Longclaw.

[Arya kiddin']

Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. “Life is not a song, sweetling,” he’d told her. “You may learn that one day to your sorrow.”

There is a hero and he has a song. He is the prince that was promised, his is the song of ice and fire.

When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard, Brienne’s breath caught in her throat. Black and red the ripples ran, deep within the steel. Valyrian steel, spell-forged. It was a sword fit for a hero. When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not.

Black and Red are the colors of Targaryens. Jon and Robb used to take the names of the legendary heroes while they were training together. I think Jon’s ultimate sword is Oathkeeper. He may have the scabbard reworked and get rid of the lions to have dragons with ruby eyes. I don’t think he would give a new name to the sword just like he kept the name of the Longclaw.

I like this one. :o

[coil]

I don't think Barristan will kill Victarion, but the other way around, but Barristan will be avenged by Dany when she has Drogon roast Victarion in the Dothraki Sea.

I agree; Lord Varys ,no offense, but if you start a new "Moments of Foreshadowing Thread," stick to the title, and provide some foreshadowing instead of continuing an off topic conversation you were having in the previous thread. You could/should have at least provided some foreshadowing, otherwise what is the point of a "Moments of Foreshadowing" thread without foreshadowing?

1 Moqorro predicts that Victarion's death "is already here" when entering in his room while the dusky woman is treating his hand.

No roasting for Vic, at least not for me.

2 @Lord Varys can you put in the OP the links for the previous threads?

[Dead Wolf]

The man wore the mask of a Brazen Beast, the fearsome likeness of a tiger. As he dropped the weapon to try and pry apart Viserion's jaws, flame gouted form the tiger's mouth.

There are clues pointing to Tyrion mounting Viserion, and I think this foreshadows Tyrion destroying the tigers, or Volantenes, or possibly the tiger cloaks siding with Dany with flames coming from his mouth a reference to them siding with Dany, the dragon.

I never stated anywhere that he would fight at Oldtown if you look carefully. Besides, Edric would want to be in the thick of things, and I stated that he would escape and do this battle out of his own volition.

My apologies.

[Mithras]

Second Battle of Tumbleton Parallel

You made a good work as usual in this parallel. Still, I have some questions:

You suggest Dany will run into Edric in Lys and get him on her way to Westeros. However, fAegon and the GC had a pitstop at Lys while they were returning to Westeros. And they have a Lysene spymaster (Lysono Maar), not to mention the full support of Varys. I admit Varys is not strong in Dragonstone, so he should not be aware of the secret departure of Edric. But he and Lysono should know what happens in Lys and they should soon be aware of Edric's presence there I dont think they would miss Edric there and proceed without him. (By the way I am aware of the fact that what happens in Lys stays in Lys :D)

We agree that fAegon will have Dorne. We also know that Eldon Estermont and Sylva Santagar were married. Sylva was a co-conspirator of Arianne and probably 50 years younger than Eldon. This marriage stinks like the seal of a certain agreement. Qyburn gave this news to Cersei and she ignored it. That means it must be important. I think it must be related to Edric, who is guarded by the grandson of Eldon.

So it is possible that Edric returned to Westeros (or rather Greenstone) by the intervention of Doran even before fAegon passed from Lys. But still, we know that Greenstone is also taken by the GC (or Eldon shook hands with them too). So Edric can again end up aligned with fAegon.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

You made a good work as usual in this parallel. Still, I have some questions:

You suggest Dany will run into Edric in Lys and get him on her way to Westeros. However, fAegon and the GC had a pitstop at Lys while they were returning to Westeros. And they have a Lysene spymaster (Lysono Maar), not to mention the full support of Varys. I admit Varys is not strong in Dragonstone, so he should not be aware of the secret departure of Edric. But he and Lysono should know what happens in Lys and they should soon be aware of Edric's presence there I dont think they would miss Edric there and proceed without him. (By the way I am aware of the fact that what happens in Lys stays in Lys :D)

We agree that fAegon will have Dorne. We also know that Eldon Estermont and Sylva Santagar were married. Sylva was a co-conspirator of Arianne and probably 50 years younger than Eldon. This marriage stinks like the seal of a certain agreement. Qyburn gave this news to Cersei and she ignored it. That means it must be important. I think it must be related to Edric, who is guarded by the grandson of Eldon.

So it is possible that Edric returned to Westeros (or rather Greenstone) by the intervention of Doran even before fAegon passed from Lys. But still, we know that Greenstone is also taken by the GC (or Eldon shook hands with them too). So Edric can again end up aligned with fAegon.

i always think of the wedding between sylva and lord estermont as a plot device for arianne to meet with her again, given that the GC has taken all noble hostages from the island.

Sylva being the traitor in the plot to crown Myrcella, the hostage situation gives an elegant way to bring that issue back into the story.