Heresy 96 The Nights King

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 96, the latest edition of the very fast moving thread that looks behind the struggle for the Iron Throne to try and work out what’s really going in the over-arching Song of Ice and Fire.

And welcome too to the sixth part of Mace Cooterian’s Centennial Seven project aimed at defining the seven major heresies and bringing together the textual evidence, current thinking and arguments surrounding them.

This one by Redriver starts off with a short piece on the Nights King. Its shorter than the previous ones but only because we really know very little about him. It might indeed be easy to argue that he’s of no significance at all and was just a scary story at bedtime, recalled simply to darken the atmosphere as Bran and the gang approach the Nightfort. But with that caveat, lets run with it as a serious subject because it offers a lot of the answers.

Once again the trend to run through these centennial threads at an incredibly fast rate continues, so if you want to contribute jump straight in while you have the chance because we’ll be on to the Children of the Forest either late Sunday or early Monday.

What has always made Heresy so different and more vibrant and exciting than other threads is that while the theories discussed here have evolved and are often fiercely debated, what we are really looking at is the whole Song of Ice and Fire. We’ve covered the Wall, the dodgy timelines, Winterfell and its mysteries, the blue-eyed lot, magic and now the Nights King, but they are none of them to be considered in isolation. This all about a free exchange of ideas about these topics and the further the Centennial Seven project goes on its way the more apparent it becomes that all of the themes being discussed here are inextricably intertwined.

We can’t claim to know as much as we’d like to, far less definitively predict how this is all going to turn out, (or have the arrogance to pretend that we do) but I do think we can fairly claim that the ongoing discussion on these pages takes us far deeper into the story than we have ever been before and into a far better understanding of the Song of Ice and Fire.

Don’t worry if you’re new to the game. In tacking the subjects afresh we’re going right back to the beginning, and if you think you’ve missed something about the topics already covered, or want to contribute something, fear not. Heresy 98 and 99 will be a free-fire zone where everything can be opened up again while the summary essays are being prepared for Heresy 100.

In the meantime also, here’s a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy and will also house the archives created by the Centennial Seven project. Above all please don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Black Crow]

The Night's King by redriver

Despite occupying very little actual text space in the novels,this little bed time story recounted by Bran Stark as told to him originally by Old Nan,certainly occupies a lot of space on these boards,and in particular the Heresy threads.

What is it about the story of the Night's King that so fascinates us?Is it that one of the "goody" Starks has gone rogue?Or maybe it's the suggestion that there can be union between humans and the Others?As we investigate this dark tale the seat of the Night's King,the Nightfort,comes under scrutiny as does his possible burial place,the Crypts of Winterfell.

Here is the tale in full as Bran tells it.Later we'll break it down and examine some of its more Heretical implications.By way of background Bran and his escorts,Jojen and Meera Reed,Hodor and Bran's direwolf,Summer have reached the ancient fortress known as the Nightfort on the southern side of the Wall.As they ponder Jojen's greendream insistence that there is a gate through the Wall here,dark tales of Brave Dany Flint,the 79 sentinels and the Rat Cook have already been exchanged and Bran recalls the tale...

Quote

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories,the tale of the Night's King.He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch,she said;a warrior who knew no fear."And that was the fault in him,"she would add,"for all men must know fear."A woman was his downfall;a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall,with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.Fearing nothing,he chased her and caught her and loved her,though her skin was as cold as ice,and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king,and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will.For thirteen years they had ruled,Night's King and his corpse queen,till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the Wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage.After his fall,when it had been sacrificing to the Others,all records of the Night's King had been,destroyed,his very name forbidden.

"Some said he was a Bolton,"Old Nan would always end."Some say a Magnar out of Skagos,some say Umber,Flint or Norrey.Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot,from them who ruled Bear Island before the Ironmen came.He never was.He was a Stark of Winterfell,and who can say?Mayhaps his name was Brandon.Mayhaps he fell asleep in this very bed in this very room."

No,Bran thought,but he walked in this castle,where we'll sleep tonight.He did not like that notion very much at all.Night's King was only a man by day but the night was his to rule.

Any bolded parts are my emphasis.

So that's the story.What do we make of it?To me the woman appears to be an Other.Though the term "corpse bride" muddies the waters a bit,I doubt she was a Wight.Giving her his seed implies a sexual act,though it could be interpreted as giving his sons away,Craster style.

To make it simple,my take on this is that the Night's King was trying to find out what the Others were about but ended up being removed from his task by his brother and Joramun.I bolded that part because I find it interesting that a Wildling King fought to save the integrity of the Night's Watch.He also ended up buried and strongly warded in the Winterfell Crypts-here is where the tradition of warding dead Starks originated.

I also strongly suspect Jon Snow is destined to follow in this guy's footsteps,and maybe finish the job.This I think is what he's so scared of in his crypt dreams...

Other Heretical notions are that Coldhands is the Night's King and that the whole NK story is more recent than we think,probably due to King Sherrit calling down his curse on the first Andals.

Anyway,what say you?

[Kennedy the Keen]

Sweet! This is my second Heresy Thread I'm going to active on. I just want to thank to people who put these together. It's probably the most interesting and entertaining forum topic I've seen so far. It's very informative, and I'm glad I found it! Keep up the great work guys! :)

Now on to the Night King...

And is there any evidence of offspring? I'm sure these have been answered but it's a simple way to start off this thread, I guess.

[Kennedy the Keen]

When it says "bound in sorcery to his will" do you think he killed all of his fellow NWmen and had his queen control them?

[Black Crow]

The short answer is that all we actually know is in that one story, quoted in full above.

The line about giving her his seed is pretty indicative of offspring of some kind, and she's certainly not a wight. Old Nan might refer to her as his corpse bride but that's only down to consistency with her earlier statement that the white walkers were cold dead things.

It is of course the only mention in the story of a female, so we might look at three options; either (1) she wasn't one of the Others at all, but a real human like Symeon Star Eyes, (2) that there are female white walkers but they are normally left at home raising Craster's kids, doing ice sculpture and gossiping about the price of frozen fish; or (3) that if the white walkers are indeed ice golems one of them could have been made to order in female form and animated by a girl child.

I suspect the first may be the most likely but wouldn't rule out (3)

As to the "bound in sorcery" we've generally taken that as their excuse before their heads made intimate contact with spikes - "it wasn't us, honest, we didn't want to do it, but they made us do it - with magic, honest, swelp me god, aaaargh..."

[Grand Maester Tarkin]

Not sure if this is necessarily heretical, but I noticed some similarities between the NK tale and the story of Patchface. Specifically, the description of the NK's "corpse bride" has common features with Patchface. Consider his description from the wiki:

"Patchface had washed up three days later, his naked skin white, wrinkled, and, the man that found him, Jornmy, swears to his dying day that the fool's skin was clammy cold. They had taken him for dead, but then he coughed up water, albeit broken in mind and body; the ordeal had taken his memories, and half his wit. Now he is subject to twitches and trembles and mostly incoherent. What happened to him during the two days is unknown, but the fisher folk like to say a mermaid had taught him to breathe water in return for his seed."

A number of the details of Patchface's ordeal are reminiscent of the NK tale, but switched around a bit. While there is no mention of the blue eyes, the tales share the cold white skin, the association with death, and the giving of seed to a nonhuman creature. Not sure if this means anything, but I found it to be eerily similar. Thoughts?

[Duke O' Nooobs]

I think if the NK was desperate enough for some iced squish mitten, he would do anything...

On a more serious note, i think the giving his seed part was more giving his sons rather than floundering in the female others' yippee bog

[wolfmaid7]

When it says "bound in sorcery to his will" do you think he killed all of his fellow NWmen and had his queen control them?

I agree with BC on this, that is wss the useful and overused "devil made me do it arguement".

What strikes me about this story is it similarity to David and Bathsheba. The Nk basically stole her after seeing her, now it has been argued that Bathsheba knew David would see her.So who is to say the woman wasn't playing the part as the seductress, but in the end she did get stolen.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I just can't picture a man wanting to "give his seed" to a popsicle, but I readily admit that appears to be what is implied here, though the other example of someone "giving their seed" that we have in the texts is Stannis Baratheon creating "shadow babies" to kill Renly and Sir Cortnay.

[Black Crow]

That in turn feeds into the question of who she was really and whether both were "demonised" when history was written by the winners.

[JNR]

Not sure if this is necessarily heretical, but I noticed some similarities between the NK tale and the story of Patchface. Specifically, the description of the NK's "corpse bride" has common features with Patchface.

I think you're right that there's a connection, but it's a very subtle one.

[wolfmaid7]

Double post.

[JNR]

What strikes me about this story is it similarity to David and Bathsheba.

This comparison had never crossed my mind, but right away there are things about it I like. Intriguing.

Here's a very small point.

If we think there's any truth to the premise that (per the story) the Night's King was atop the Wall when he saw her -- saw her clearly enough to want her, and chase her -- the implication is that the top of the Wall was much closer to the ground than seven hundred feet.

[JNR]

As to the "bound in sorcery" we've generally taken that as their excuse before their heads made intimate contact with spikes - "it wasn't us, honest, we didn't want to do it, but they made us do it - with magic, honest, swelp me god, aaaargh..."

Compare to:

Robb considered that a moment. "Did you know what Lord Rickard intended? Did you see the knives drawn? Did you hear the shouts, the screams, the cries for mercy?"

"Aye, I did, but I took no part. I was only the watcher, I swear it . . . "

"Lord Umber," said Robb, "this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die."

[Dagda]

Great job Redriver.

What strikes me in the reread is the uncanny similarity of the duel " only a man by day, but the night as his to rule", and the titles of the Starks, King In The North and King of Winter. They seem to reflect a deeper truth in both.

[Black Crow]

And as for the demonising, if you've been with us so far you'll know that here in Heresy we have some serious issues with the accuracy of the timelines, the real number of Lord Commanders and so on, and the Night Fort although not at the centre of them does provide us with a lot of food for thought in this direction.

First the facts. Under the Nightfort is the magic Black Gate, approached by a winding stair to Hell remarkably similar to the one going down into the underground halls of Winterfell. This gate is said to be as old as the Wall. The Nightfort on the other hand is described as being twice as old as Castle Black. Does this mean it is not as old as the Wall? There is another heretical implication here but we'll come to that later.

Then there are Old Nan's stories, not just the Nights King, but dark tales of Brave Dany Flint, the 79 sentinels and the Rat Cook, the thing in the night, Symeon Star Eyes, the hellhounds and King Sherrit and his curse, all happening at the Nightfort. Clearly there is something unchancy about the place. It is not a regular military garrison like Castle Black. Hence the attention we pay to it in heresy.

Returning to the Nights King the alliteration of his supposedly being the 13th Lord Commander and then ruling for 13 years seems rather too neat, especially when we have suspicions to paraphrase Sam that just as we have stories of knights when there were no knights we may here have stories of a Lord Commander when there were no Lord Commanders and perhaps no Watch.

Certainly the stories we do have suggest that the Nightfort or perhaps more accurately the Black Gate (seemingly unknown to Old Nan) was not a military outpost but was indeed a crossroads between the Realms of Men and Dark Narnia, and what complicates the story as told even more are the references to the Andals.

There's the Rat Cook feeding the Andal king his sons baked in a pie, and there's King Sherrit calling down his curse on "the Andals of Old" from the Nightfort.

Hence one of the great heresies that King Sherrit was the Nights King, and that he was betrayed and overthrown by his brother in order to secure peace with the Andals, and when Old Nan says his name was stricken from the records that was when that "oldest list" found by Sam was compiled, headed by the name of the man who was the first commander of the new Watch and stretching backwards to the legendary building of the Wall thousands of years before, removing the Nights king and his predecessors from history and substituting a new one suggesting that the watch had always held the Wall.

There's more than this both to the basic heresy and its implications, but at this point I'm for bed and bid you all good night - and sweet dreams of the Nightfort

[JNR]

Forgot to say, fascinating intro by Redriver.

So many questions brought up that deserve analysis, particularly Redriver's premises here

I find it interesting that a Wildling King fought to save the integrity of the Night's Watch.He also ended up buried and strongly warded in the Winterfell Crypts-here is where the tradition of warding dead Starks originated.

It is indeed a very interesting and underexamined tidbit that a Stark and a KbtW should have joined forces for any cause whatever.

And the idea of the Night's King being in the crypts, very likely the lowest level, seems a compelling and promising one.

[wolfmaid7]

This comparison had never crossed my mind, but right away there are things about it I like. Intriguing.

Here's a very small point.

If we think there's any truth to the premise that (per the story) the Night's King was atop the Wall when he saw her -- saw her clearly enough to want her, and chase her -- the implication is that the top of the Wall was much closer to the ground than seven hundred feet.

JNR that is brilliant insight and I would hold on to that one for the recaps .But a fee things about the story from a behaviorl point of view Bathsheba took a showe there daily and it wasn't uncommon.it was habit.

So if the story of the NK is true she was standing there and he glimpsed her and decides I'll forsake my vows for a woman I just glimpsed.

Even a Succubi, Siren ir enchantress needs more than that to make a man fall.

This tells me not only was the Wall shorter, common sense would dictate that seeing "other things" close to the Wall must have been common.

You know the forbidden fruit you can only look at but can't touch or strike up a conversation with anyway.

Think the Story of the Watchers, who looked and beheld the daughters of men and lusted.

Their sin was that they corrupted the bloodlines of men and spawned blood thirsty giants and men of renknown.

I just find it hard to believe he just spotted her one night and bam.There must have been more traffic on thst side near the Wall and as you pointed out at that time it must have been shorter.

Maybe men hadn't at that time started adding onto the structure.

Also great job on the OP Redriver.

[JNR]

Another little curiosity:

"Some said he was a Bolton,"Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint or Norrey."

A Magnar out of Skagos?

I cannot name a single known Skagosian in the Watch's history, now or ever. Can anyone else?

It seems to me that Skagos would have been largely safe in the Long Night, as an island.

[King of Winters]

I've just had a thought on the Nightfort and all the other castles that were around at that time on the Wall. The reason they were build with castle walls (facing South) was, as we guess, because they were protecting the Wall from the Realms of Men and were there to stop the FM marching on the Wall into the Lands beyond. They were built to make sure the FM kept to the Pact, but after the fall of the Night's King, that's when they got the walls pulled down.