JNR Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 And whats in Canada? Creatures who can do fascinating things with Ice and are determined to conquer south of the wall/border. Yea Im talkin bout the Canadian Hockey League. :cheers: I've suggested several times to a friend of mine in the Ottawa area that she would be welcome, and quite a bit warmer, south of the Wall. But, like most Canadians/free folk, she has... er, an imperfect appreciation for the culture down south. Only our junk food appeals to her. Yes, its not clear if they were hostile at that point in history. If the 'woman' spotted from the wall was Joramun's family and was stolen as I suggested, this could cause the hostility. It does seem possible. Current free folk, of course, would seemingly just applaud any man strong enough to steal a wildling woman, but those days were long ago... times could have changed. I'm trying to decide if human beings could actually be shortsighted enough to want to continue to live in a place like that, so soon after being decimated. A hundred years doesn't seem like very long... but human beings, at least those I've encountered, can be remarkably blind to obvious threats. (Every day I see some smoking.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Maybe we should start with going over the Nightfort itself, because some folks seem confused about how old it is. It was either built in conjunction with the wall or shortly after (I think there's even a possibility that it was there before the wall, but there's nothing specifically to support that). It was the seat of the Night's Watch and it's Lord Commander from the time it was built, until after Aegon's Landing when Queen Allysane went to the Wall, and because it cost too much to maintain (supposedly), she commisioned Castle Black just a few miles away. So the Night's Fort was there for thousands of years. So the stuff about the Andals with the Rat Cook and King Sheritt happened sometime between the Andal invasion and Aegon's Landing, and the Andal invasion happened a long time after the wall was built right? Does everyone agree with this approximate sequence of events at least or is there some debate there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Maybe we should start with going over the Nightfort itself, because some folks seem confused about how old it is. It was either built in conjunction with the wall or shortly after (I think there's even a possibility that it was there before the wall, but there's nothing specifically to support that). It was the seat of the Night's Watch and it's Lord Commander from the time it was built, until after Aegon's Landing when Queen Allysane went to the Wall, and because it cost too much to maintain (supposedly), she commisioned Castle Black just a few miles away. So the Night's Fort was there for thousands of years. So the stuff about the Andals with the Rat Cook and King Sheritt happened sometime between the Andal invasion and Aegon's Landing, and the Andal invasion happened a long time after the wall was built right? Does everyone agree with this approximate sequence of events at least or is there some debate there? yes you can list the events that happen but can you connect them? i'm about to help you out... and she commissioned Deep Lake not Castle Black, and it was seven miles away from the Night Fort along a curve in the Wall next to a suspicious lake. about to post some quotes and the connections i make... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Does everyone agree with this approximate sequence of events at least or is there some debate there? I agree with almost all of it. This may be true... It was the seat of the Night's Watch and its Lord Commander from the time it was built ...or may not be. We're not told; we only hear that the Nightfort was abandoned 200 years back. and she commissioned Deep Lake not Castle Black Correct. Castle Black is far more ancient. Also, I think Black Crow will point out that the Nightfort could conceivably have been built thousands of years after the Wall. For instance, imagine the Wall was built 8K years ago, the Nightfort 6K years ago, Castle Black 3K years ago. Now the Nightfort is still twice as old, yet far more recent than the Wall. My own guess is that the Nightfort is indeed as old as the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 the origin of the Stark Brother Kings of the North Forest and the curse of the Winter and Night: let me first start off by saying I believe that GRRM put the Jon and Bran chapters in Storm of Swords together in a such a way that we can unravel the origin mythos and purpose of House Stark and the Wall as the two brothers approach the same point from opposite sides... but that's just me. I like to connect things 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon style and I think GRRM would approve of my methods. " Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark..." SOS Bran The important thing to note, this is always what she tells Bran at the end of the tale. To me she makes " the night " sound like a responsibility/curse that House Stark has always owned since the age of heroes. " Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." SOS Bra seems like every house in the north wants to claim him as their own, i wonder why that is? " naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means " deciever " in the Old Tongue, that the first men spoke, and the giants still speak." COK Jon 51 " The man you mistook me for is Styr, Magnar of Thenn. Magnar means " Lord " in the Old Tongue." SOS Jon " the Magnar's a lord on Skagos, Noye said. There were Skagossons at Eastwatch when I first came to the Wall, I remember hearing them talk of him. Jon was using the word in its older sense, I think, Maseter Aemon said, not as a family name but as a title. It derives from the Old Tongue. It means lord, Jon agreed. Styr is the Magnar of some place called Thenn. " SOS Jon " And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose? I never knew my mother, or any such song, said Jon Snow. Bael the Bard made it, said Ygritte. He was king beyond the wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don't sing them in the south." COK Jon 51 " Tell me, Jon urged her. I want to hear this tale of yours. Might be you won't like it much, she said. I will hear it all the same. Brave Black Crow, she mocked." COK Jon 51 " The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says... though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and the boy grew up to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is... you have Bael's blood in you, same as me. It never happened, Jon Snow said." COK Jon 51 I give these quotes first for a reason. Keep this story in mind when we hear about the man who fears nothing and the corpse bride. Notice the similarities in the two stories ( the custom of crossing realms and taking a wife), leaving a son for payment for " the winter rose " he'd plucked unasked thus becomes a parallel to the most ancient curse that has been placed upon House Stark when a man with no fear crossed over the wall. I will also return to the possibility that Ygritte and the Mance are both from Skagos as well as Bael the Bard and Joramun who blew the Horn of Winter. Skagos and the Magnar's ( Lords in Old Tongue) could be the ancient house/line of King's- Beyond-the-Wall. " The Black Gate Sam had called it but it wasn't black at all. Who are you? I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the Walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men." SOS Bran the purpose of this vow is to prevent Children of the Forest and White Walkers and Giants from coming back to the realms of man. Also note that it is said in the Common Tongue not in the Old Tongue. Only a human with a soul can speak this " truth " in front of the weirwood gate. Maybe it is like an automatic gate. If Bloodraven is the one who drops the tear on Bran's cheek then it is possible for greenseer's to see through the gate and confirm who is attempting to cross. Either way the original vow will eventually be changed and I give my theory as to why this happened later. Also note that this gate is not large enough for a Giant to go through so they have been pushed into the other realm. " He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. And that was the fault in him, she would add, for all men must know fear. A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well." SOS Bran Let's put this part of the story in the proper context. You are the younger brother of the King of the North who is building the Wall with the slavery of Giants and his own castle around the heart tree your father killed himself at. You brother thinks he can separate the realms of man from the white walkers and the lands of always winter. Your brother is so smart and down with Children of the Forest that he has put in a portal into the Wall so that you and a fearless bunch of warriors can cross over and attempt to bring people back to the realms of man. This I believe was the original purpose tasked to him by his brother. Anyways you see 12 Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch come and go with no end in sight to the warfare. When your turn to command comes up you decide put a end to the squabble and steal their princess to form a peace/alliance/common lineage between the two races but first you must give her your seed so that she has a living human soul inside her so that she can cross realms. " He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorcery they ruled for thirteen years, Night's King and his Corpse Queen..." SOS Bran sounds to me like he was able to bring peace for 13 years and he formed an alliance between the White Walkers and First Men but probably had to give his son's to his father-in-laws... " till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it had found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden." SOS Bran The name of the Night's King was Jon Snow, Ygritte flinched, and Evil Name. It also seems important to mention the each of these Kings more than likely had separate goals/purposes. " The Maesters will tell you that King Jaehaerys abolished the lord's right to the first night to appease his shrewish queen, but where the old gods rule, old customs linger. And on Skagos...well, only heart trees see half of what they do on Skagos." ADWD Reek" " Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court.The king had matters to discuss with the Warden of the North." SOS Jon the first time Dragons have been seen at the Wall in the entire history of Winterfell. If they had arrived before this we would know... " Maester Luwin always said that Old Nan's stories shouldn't be swallowed whole. But once his uncle had came to see his Father, and Bran asked about the Night Fort. Benjen Stark never said the tales were true, but he never said the tales weren't; he only shrugged and said, We left the Nightfort two hundred years ago, as if that was an answer." SOS Bran seems like the First Ranger is not telling Bran everything he know's about the original duties of the Night's Watch or the true purpose as to why it was abandoned, but not to worry he will pick him up later after burying a certain cache for Jon to find... being the Stark First Ranger he is the only person alive that would know the entrance to the Black Gate. well he is not alive anymore and smells kinda funny... " But it had also been the first one abandoned, all the way back to the time of the Old King. Even then it had been three-quarters empty and too costly to maintain. Good Queen Alysanne had suggested that the watch replace it with a smaller castle seven miles east, where the Wall curved along the shore of a beautiful green lake. The castle had been built with the queen's jewels and the men the Old King had sent north, and the black brothers abandoned the Nightfort to the rats." SOS Bran so the starks allowed the king to fly his dragons over the north, move an ancient seat of power and bring men to fill the new castles he was building. Sounds like downright intimidation to me... " Hear my words and bear witness to my vow. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take now wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all night to come." GOT Jon with the Good Queen's connection to the Faith of the Seven and her ability to change so much about the Night's Watch, why couldn't she suggest they update the vows to something more modern? does she know that by changing so much she has helped create the need for a certain Keep in the woods to continue to appease these cold gods... " It is only another empty castle, Meera Reed said. No, Bran thought, it is the Nightfort, and this is the end of the world." SOS Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capon Breath Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 One thing on the night kings "seed". I'd suggest this clearly refers to "sexy juice" not offspring for a couple of reasons. Firstly seed is used a lot in the books by GRRM and as far as I can recall almost exclusively used to describe....well... You know. Notable example that springs to mind being Lancels confession to Tyrion about spilling his seed on Cerseis belly.Second and a little more practical, if NK ruled for 13 years he wouldn't really have had time to have too many kids, unless they were Mel style shadow babies.....l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capon Breath Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 " a warrior who knew no fear. And that was the fault in him, she would add, for all men must know fear"This line is really interesting, it very closely echoes the sentiment of Neds iconic speech to Bran at the start of AGOT when he executes the deserter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Another thing that seems strange is that after his fall it was discovered that he was sacrifing to the Others. My question is if he wasn't sactificing his and his owns men kids.Where were they coming form and why was it discovered "after" they overthrew him.So know one south of the Wall reported this, or did they kidnap from beyond the wall which again shows the weird ness of this tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Winters Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I think when the wall was first built, there were no castles were there? The Night Fort was the first wasn't it?I think the Nightfort was the first one built and the. Then they started building the other castles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Timeline-wise, the Black Gate is as old as the Wall. Theoretically its possible that the stair to Hell existed earlier but I really don't see the point of a gate if there's no Wall. The Nightfort was the first castle on the Wall and is twice as old as Castle Black. What's frustrating about this is that so far as I recall we're not given a foundation date for Castle Black to work back from, and we don't know whether any of the other castles were built before Castle Black. Either way distinguishing the Nightfort as the first castle to be built does imply that even if the Nightfort itself is as old as the Wall (and we don't actually know this) there must have been a period, long or short, when there were no other castles on the Wall. The Nightfort however was not the seat of the Lord Commander all the way up to when it was abandoned 200 years ago. We do after all have the story of the commanders of the Nightfort and the Snowfort going to war with each other and then turning on the Lord Commander when he tried to intervene. That clearly suggests Castle Black was purposely built as the seat of the Lord Commander long before the Nightfort was abandoned. Now that again offers an intriguing thought, because if the Nightfort is the oldest castle and twice as old as Castle Black, then if we stick for the sake of argument to the traditional timeline and also for the sake of simplicity say that the Nighfort itself is contemporary with the Black Gate and therefore as old as the Wall, then Castle Black is only 4,000 years old tops and presumably a lot less if we shorten the overall Westerosi timelines. Its building therefore falls into the Andal period. Swing back to the Lord Commanders; why shift the seat from the Nightfort to Castle Black? The simplest answer would be a bit of fire, destruction, slaughter and a generally unchancy reputation attaching to the Nightfort. Once the Nights King is overthrown establishing the Lord Commander of the new Watch in a new castle on a different site would be entirely understandable. Once again though it would support the heresy that the Nights King story doesn't belong to the early years of the Wall but the middle period and the arrival of the Andals, and so too a strongly Andal Watch swearing to take no part in the affairs of the realms of Men and establishing castles in the North along the Wall, castles with no Walls would be consistent with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Or alternately, we have the version from the show, in which Godslayer says outright that the Black Gate is a "sally port." I don't think that there's any significance to this. Its not a phrase that occurs in the book and the show skips all the magic stuff that is in the book. I think all we're getting here is a quick and dirty explanation for non-reading viewers that the main gate may be blocked, but there is a little sally port we can use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Well, the whole story and the set up at the Nightfort is odd... Rereading the descriptions of the gate at Castle Black - winding, narrow, men have to lead their horses - it reminds me of the Black Gate in that it the design is more focused on stopping something from getting through than letting their own men out whether to sally out, hunt, gather wood or whatever. Still a gate leading from a kitchen north of the Wall suggests either a service entrance, or, as was said in a heresy long ago, a later repurposing of the room. There is something of the 'just so' story about the Night's King tale. It explains why the oath forbids the wearing of crowns and the fathering of children - because really why not? In the context of many kingdoms why not have a neutral kingdom of the wall? Why not have married watchmen to maintain the numbers needed to patrol the Wall. Also it associates magic and magical powers with evil and wrong doing while accommodation with the other is the ultimate transgression. That last point is a little strange. In the context of a long night in which White Walkers were galloping around on Ice Spiders generally being unpleasant why do you need an additional story to point out how dangerous they are, except of course the White Lady in the story is only dangerous indirectly. She apparently doesn't kill anybody, but rather provides the means for magical control over the watch - why is that a problem? We are not told that the Watch opened the gates and let others through, simply that they worshipped the Others. So it is a parable against 'going native'. Against making an accommodation with the other. That apparently is the risk, that those men become isolated and cut off from the rest of mankind and do the obvious thing which is become intimate with the enemy. Of course whether any of it is true or not or meant to be understood as true by us readers is a different story. What I think is important is how the story programmes us to look for potential Night's Kings but also suggests that characters in the book are doing the same thing. This is part of the situation in Jon XIII ADWD - there is a tradition that violent action has to be taken to protect the watch from its own leader. In line with the story being more of a parable the number thirteen is both magical, but also conveniently far, far away in the past. Again the indeterminate family of the King means that 'it could happen to any one' but also that blame can't be pinned on one particular family line, this is no 'black legend' explaining why one particular house is to be despised. Still heretically speaking, since you can't fight Winter, one might wonder if the Night's King points towards a different way of dealing with the others that some kind of accommodation (not necessarily involving semen but who knows, I still think that Val looks terribly suspicious upon her return from north of the Wall :laugh: ) might not only be possible but a way of resolving the plot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 The name of the Night's King was Jon Snow, Ygritte flinched, an Evil Name. There's nothing in the text to suggest the name of the Nights King was Jon Snow. Ygritte does indeed flinch and comment that he has an evil name when he introduces himself, but given the lack of any reference to the Nights King then or later she is most likely referencing not Jon Snow but Ramsay Snow, whose reputation as they say precedes him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Quite agree, since I'm the guy who originally brought up that SSM... Another little idea. Let's suppose the story is true, and the Night's King was the literal 13th LC. Assuming average LC tenure of ~8 years, this puts the Night's King at ~100 years after founding of Watch, which is frequently associated with the end of the Long Night (and stated outright in the recent season three Histories). OK... 100 years after the Others have been fought off. Is that really enough time for the scattered remnants of human kingdoms, in a place that vast (the lands beyond the Wall) to feel any sort of enmity for the Watch? Wouldn't you, if you lived in that place at that time, just want to get the hell south of the Wall, fearing a return of the Others? I'm not sure the Watch would have had any objection if remnant populations had turned up and wanted to come south. This would have been long before the free folk were thought of as "raiders." Refugees would come closer to the mark. Perhaps this was the reason for the Black Gate. If refugees appeared, the Black Gate would be a secure means by which they could cross... a magic door that could be opened only by the Watch, and unassailable by the Others or wights (if they should return). If Joramun was the king of these people, and the people were not enemies of the Watch, it would explain why Joramun would collaborate with the Stark.What that information argues against, no matter how you cut it, is the reality of the Long Night. How is there any Joramun and enough people above the Wall to form an army to join the Starks. How many men did the Starks have for that matter ... Just like the Bible tale of the expulsion from the garden, where did all the people come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 But weren't their already a bunch FM north of the wall to begin with. The Thenns.And that's a problem for the reality of the Long Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 :cheers: I've suggested several times to a friend of mine in the Ottawa area that she would be welcome, and quite a bit warmer, south of the Wall. But, like most Canadians/free folk, she has... er, an imperfect appreciation for the culture down south. Only our junk food appeals to her. Since I was just over the Wall yesterday, I would trade North Dakota to them for constant access to "smoked meat". Damn it's good ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WierWood Wolf Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I agree with almost all of it. This may be true... ...or may not be. We're not told; we only hear that the Nightfort was abandoned 200 years back. Correct. Castle Black is far more ancient. Also, I think Black Crow will point out that the Nightfort could conceivably have been built thousands of years after the Wall. For instance, imagine the Wall was built 8K years ago, the Nightfort 6K years ago, Castle Black 3K years ago. Now the Nightfort is still twice as old, yet far more recent than the Wall. My own guess is that the Nightfort is indeed as old as the Wall. My guess is after the Wall. Bran sez either Old Nan or Benjen tells him all the stairs of the NF are built of Ice. Ice from the Wall. Some of the steps are so warn, it appears the Wall is reclaiming them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capon Breath Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Another thing that seems strange is that after his fall it was discovered that he was sacrifing to the Others.My question is if he wasn't sactificing his and his owns men kids.Where were they coming form and why was it discovered "after" they overthrew him.So know one south of the Wall reported this, or did they kidnap from beyond the wall which again shows the weird ness of this tale.Is there anything in the books to suggest it was Kids or even humans? The sacrifice could presumably have been Men of the Watch. Whores from Mole Town, Sheep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I'd like to explore the possibility of Val being the equivalent of the White Queen Elizabeth Woodville. The real White Queen and her mother were accused of witchcraft. Now you could say those were attempts to tarnish their reputations, but if they were part of a coven, and I think it was more common in those days, then perhaps GRRM has been putting a twist on things and making the seat of royal power onto Val and her sister before her. Maybe that's where Mance's authority came from and why the wildlings followed him. Maybe they were actually following Dalla, and now Val. Val hasn't tried very hard to refuse Stannis's elevating her. She lives in the castle and enjoys a certain lifestyle that is elevated over the rest of the wildlings. I don't have time to research this right now as I'm getting ready to go to work, but maybe later on this evening I can help flesh this idea out. Edited to add: just to clarify, this relates to the Night's King because I think his authority also came from the White Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capon Breath Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 SNIP I like this post a lot. Sometimes a story is just a story (although of course that makes it boring from a rampant speculation perspective) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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