Heresy 96 The Nights King

[Lord Martin]

Its an interesting idea and certainly offers a plausible linkage between the last hero being the last of 13 and the Nights King likewise, but I really don't see more than that to link them. As Lummel points out 13 is a magic number and likely to come up in various places. Indeed its entirely possible that the heroes deliberately set out as a company of 13 for that very reason. Yet all three stories come from Old Nan, who conspicuously doesn't link them and Bran rejects the story of Bran the Builder because its dull and boring - and he doesn't seem to believe that he had anything to do with the Wall anyway.

Nan herself does not link the stories, but GRRM does

[quote

"I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder," Old Nan said. "That was always your favorite."

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Hey guys!

Someone just posted a great thread in the general section pertaining to the NK and the Last Hero. I found it very interesting, you guys should check it out.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/104473-Reconciling-Northern-Myths%3A--Last-Hero-is-Night%27s-King

I don't really believe this is correct, but let's run with it for a minute anyways...

So what we're saying here really is that the "13 companions" were really the first Night's Watch. They set out to find the Children of the Forest (which we were conspicously never told they found). The original leader died, and then the second, etc, until the "Last Hero" sort of became the 13th Lord Commander, and was the last of his brethren left. The Others that were hounding them with ice spiders, instead of killing him saved him (perhaps because he had the blood required to provide them sacrifices similar to what we later see with Craster)?

So instead of killing him, they give him the choice to return with his "bride", who may have been more similar to Val than an actual Other, and he returns and completes the Night Fort, equipped with a secret passage so that he can sacrifice his children to the Others similar to Craster.

So then apparently the "battle for the dawn" never even occurs, and instead, Brandon the Builder (his brother) and Joramun (the King of the Wildlings) find out about his deal with the Others and form an alliance to kill the Night's King?

Does them killing the Night's King start the Long Night then? Or was it already going?

I'm lost. Reversing all this stuff around has consequences to the rest of the story, and the pieces just don't seem to fit...

[TheTowerOfJoy]

We certainly agree about that.

I'm just not sure it means "throw out everything you know about the timelines -- the Night's King lived in the time of the Andals," or "I, the writer, would prefer people not figure everything out very soon, since there's no earthly way I'm finishing this series by 2006 like I originally thought."

Or perhaps, I'm so bad at keeping up with dates, I'm going to write in some sections to give me some wiggle room if I mess it up. It's all legend, and who knows what the real dates were... done.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

But its the end of the world up there, to quote more than one character. What were such an eclectic bunch doing up there and at that particular place?

Well if it was the only fort on the wall until around the time of the Andals, then it would be the only place to go to the Night's Watch.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Its an interesting idea and certainly offers a plausible linkage between the last hero being the last of 13 and the Nights King likewise, but I really don't see more than that to link them. As Lummel points out 13 is a magic number and likely to come up in various places. Indeed its entirely possible that the heroes deliberately set out as a company of 13 for that very reason. Yet all three stories come from Old Nan, who conspicuously doesn't link them and Bran rejects the story of Bran the Builder because its dull and boring - and he doesn't seem to believe that he had anything to do with the Wall anyway.

To me, the whole point of the Black Gate is to traverse the wall, and it seems like the obvious choice for how the Night's King sacrificed to the Others. But if there is no wall, then what on earth would the Black Gate be there for? If the wall is there, then why is it there if the Long Night hasn't occurred yet? Because the Last Hero supposedly ended the Long Night with the Battle for the Dawn.

So confused how it's being proposed that the Night's King pre-dates the Wall...

[TheTowerOfJoy]

But its the end of the world up there, to quote more than one character. What were such an eclectic bunch doing up there and at that particular place?

Well, we're talking about Bran, Hodor, Meera and Jojen, right? So they were actually trying to get across the wall, and were just looking for somewhere to sleep, and perhaps Jojen's Greensight told him to go there, because he said that Jon wasn't at Castle Black didn't he?

[Amoracchius]

Well if it was the only fort on the wall until around the time of the Andals, then it would be the only place to go to the Night's Watch.

Wait, I'm confused: Where was it said that the Nightfort was the only castle on the Wall during the time of the Andal invasion? I remember being told that it's the oldest castle and that it's twice as old as Castle Black, but that doesn't mean that the only one for any extended period of time, just that Castle Black is much newer.

[wolfmaid7]

I too am wondering the timelines importance compared to the story itself and deconstructing what Nan said and what we know ,oooor am i missing something completely.Is the timeline important and that's just going over my head? I can get a timeline depute,but how are we on

1. The fact that he stole a woman from beyond the Wall

2. The nature of the sacrifices

3.The glimpsing a woman from atop the wall period,who know what she was doing there.

4. How a diciplined wildling army could have been amassed in that atmosphere to help the Stark in WF?

5. Why help the Stark in WF?

6. Who possibly appointed the NK that role?

7. How he or if he did use sorcery to whammy the NW

I may have to go back and read what the previous posts,but i admit i'm a bit in the weeds as to the arguments.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Well, perhaps you could clarify the problem.

As I see it, all this dramatic restructuring of the given timeline seems... needless.

We're told in the books that the Night's King was a Lord Commander of the Watch, and the thirteenth. That he lived in the time of Joramun. That Joramun is the most ancient known leader of the wildlings. That the Wall was built to stop the Others. That the Others came eight thousand years before the time of the story.

It all seems to hang together rather well.

If we need to explain how the Watch came to acquire Andals -- is that the goal? -- I'm not sure why we need to move the NIght's King up four thousand years or so. I'm comfortable just thinking this:

The North was never conquered by the Andals, per the books. But the North did always need men for the Watch, also per the books. So a deal was cut; the North allowed Andals into the Watch. There were more Andals than northmen over time, and the Watch thus became increasingly Andalized. But that was the limit of the Andals' influence north of the Neck.

A Night's King who lived thousands of years too late, contradicting all the established info we're given about him, doesn't seem required.

Completely Agree.

Night's Watch is at the wall and is comprised of First Men for thousands of years before the Andals get there. The Andals get there, do not make it past the neck, and inhabit the area of lower 6 kingdoms. The Seven Kingdoms are formed, one of which being the North with it's King as the King in the North, but as time passes, the seven independent kingdoms begin to trade and are at relative peace. The King in the North tells the other 6 Kingdoms that they'll take people for the Watch, which distresses King Sherritt, but they come anyways. With the new Andal men, there are enough men to build the remaining castles/gates on the Wall. Thousands of years of relative peace in the Seven Kingdoms reigns until Aegon the Conquerer shows up. King Torrhen Stark bends the Knee, and all of the other seven Kingdoms eventually do as well, and Queen Allysane heads up there, ends the right of first night, and abandons the Night's Fort.

I really don't see an issue there at all.

[JNR]

Its an interesting idea and certainly offers a plausible linkage between the last hero being the last of 13 and the Nights King likewise, but I really don't see more than that to link them. As Lummel points out 13 is a magic number and likely to come up in various places. Indeed its entirely possible that the heroes deliberately set out as a company of 13 for that very reason. Yet all three stories come from Old Nan, who conspicuously doesn't link them and Bran rejects the story of Bran the Builder because its dull and boring - and he doesn't seem to believe that he had anything to do with the Wall anyway.

:agree:

That the Night's King reigned for thirteen years is the bit I reject. I just can't see him corrupting the entire Watch and sacrificing to the Others for over a decade without anybody outside the Watch noticing or taking any form of action.

I also find it amusing Bran would be bored by Brandon the Builder's story if (as I have surmised) that story turns out to be Bran's own future story, more or less...

[Black Crow]

Well, we're talking about Bran, Hodor, Meera and Jojen, right? So they were actually trying to get across the wall, and were just looking for somewhere to sleep, and perhaps Jojen's Greensight told him to go there, because he said that Jon wasn't at Castle Black didn't he?

They went there because Jojen's greendreaming told him that there was some kind of gate there, although it took Sam to show them where it was. The option of going to meet with Jon wasn't on the table because they were jorneying north to meet the three-eyed crow and to do that they had to get across the Wall.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Wait, I'm confused: Where was it said that the Nightfort was the only castle on the Wall during the time of the Andal invasion? I remember being told that it's the oldest castle and that it's twice as old as Castle Black, but that doesn't mean that the only one for any extended period of time, just that Castle Black is much newer.

Well we're told it's twice as old as all the other castles on the wall, so it could certainly be the half-way point that the Andals invade. Or maybe some of the other forts had been built when the Andals invaded, but not many of them.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

They went there because Jojen's greendreaming told him that there was some kind of gate there, although it took Sam to show them where it was. The option of going to meet with Jon wasn't on the table because they were jorneying north to meet the three-eyed crow and to do that they had to get across the Wall.

Right, my bad, I was probably just confusing the scene from the show. But wasn't it you who asked what they were doing there?

[wolfmaid7]

:agree:

That the Night's King reigned for thirteen years is the bit I reject. I just can't see him corrupting the entire Watch and sacrificing to the Others for over a decade without anybody outside the Watch noticing or taking any form of action.

I also find it amusing Bran would be bored by Brandon the Builder's story if (as I have surmised) that story turns out to be Bran's own future story, more or less...

Totally agree with this i mean how could no one have said anything....So that could be a demonetization of him then?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Oh you meant the Rat King story and the King Sherritt blurb?

Well, if the Night Fort was still the seat of the Lord Commander at that point when the Andals invaded, it makes plenty of sense for them to be there visiting the Night's Watch to see what the North is asking the rest of the Seven Independent Kingdoms to help fund and man once the war was over and peace was made. Which is probably why Jahaerys and Allysane visited it as well once the Targaryens took power.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

:agree:

That the Night's King reigned for thirteen years is the bit I reject. I just can't see him corrupting the entire Watch and sacrificing to the Others for over a decade without anybody outside the Watch noticing or taking any form of action.

I also find it amusing Bran would be bored by Brandon the Builder's story if (as I have surmised) that story turns out to be Bran's own future story, more or less...

Well I suspect they simply didn't know. For all intents and purposes to everyone on the outside, he was manning the wall, and keeping the peace with the Wildlings.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I personally think the entire point of the Night's King is to give us a historic example of what was going on at Craster's. That the others need "sacrifices", quite possibly of descendents of certain bloodlines.

I think they could be trying to do something similar to Benjen.

What if Jon and Mance end up having to fight the new Night's King, Benjen, paralleling the story of the Stark at Winterfell and Joramun.

[Black Crow]

To me, the whole point of the Black Gate is to traverse the wall, and it seems like the obvious choice for how the Night's King sacrificed to the Others. But if there is no wall, then what on earth would the Black Gate be there for? If the wall is there, then why is it there if the Long Night hasn't occurred yet? Because the Last Hero supposedly ended the Long Night with the Battle for the Dawn.

So confused how it's being proposed that the Night's King pre-dates the Wall...

That's Martin's idea; identifying the Nights King as the Last Hero. Its not an idea we've proposed here before and its not one I'm in agreement with. Its just possible that the stairway to Hell existed before the Wall, but we've no evidence on that, althoughit's existence if revealed would be consistent with some of the archaeology up my way. On the whole though I'm inclined to dismiss it and stick with the statement that it was as old as the Wall and presumably therefore was at one time the only way through.

Since the Nightfort is described as the oldest castle, it may be contemporary with the Black Gate, but not necessarily. This compounds the issue of Castle Black. If we stick with the "official" dating and allow Castle Black to be half as old, then Castle Black is no more than 4,000 years old, or proportionately less if we adopt the foreshortened timelines proposed by Lord Rodrik and by Hoster Blackwood. Its entirely feasible that most of the other castles were established in the period between the building of the Night Fort and the building of Castle Black, but they could equally well have come later. The two important points here are (1) the Nightfort was the first castle, which of itself suggests it was not built as part of the Wall itself and since the others came after, then clearly at the time it was built there were no other castles on the Wall. Until Sam gets in amongst the libraries in the Citadel we're stuck with that very frustrating puzzle. And then (2) why was Castle Black built when it was? The obvious answer appears to have been to provide a new seat for the Lord Commander, yet the Nightfort continued in use until just 200 years ago; hence the suggestion that the move was made after the overthrow of the Nights King and the establishment of a new Watch waving that dodgy mediaeval king list.

[Lord Martin]

I don't really believe this is correct, but let's run with it for a minute anyways...

So what we're saying here really is that the "13 companions" were really the first Night's Watch. They set out to find the Children of the Forest (which we were conspicously never told they found). The original leader died, and then the second, etc, until the "Last Hero" sort of became the 13th Lord Commander, and was the last of his brethren left. The Others that were hounding them with ice spiders, instead of killing him saved him (perhaps because he had the blood required to provide them sacrifices similar to what we later see with Craster)?

So instead of killing him, they give him the choice to return with his "bride", who may have been more similar to Val than an actual Other, and he returns and completes the Night Fort, equipped with a secret passage so that he can sacrifice his children to the Others similar to Craster.

So then apparently the "battle for the dawn" never even occurs, and instead, Brandon the Builder (his brother) and Joramun (the King of the Wildlings) find out about his deal with the Others and form an alliance to kill the Night's King?

Does them killing the Night's King start the Long Night then? Or was it already going?

I'm lost. Reversing all this stuff around has consequences to the rest of the story, and the pieces just don't seem to fit...

Since the linked post was mine, I'll reply.

But first I will state, there is no perfect theory based on the books we have to date. Some facts simply cannot fit.

Second, myths and legends get twisted and conflated over time. Plus, history is written by the victors so often the mis-deeds of the winners go unwritten and vice versa.

One concept to wrestle with is what is older the Wall or the Watch? Would it make more sense for humanity to build a wall and then create some mystical order to guard it, or does it make more sense that the military order/army existed first, and after the battle built the Wall? IMO, only the latter makes sense.

Next, the Long Night lasted a generation and the NW battled the Others during the Long Night. In one generation, its quite likely that the Watch went through more than one Lord Commander. So 13 LCs during the Long Night is quite feasible.

I do not suggest the Others saved him. But clearly human baby boys have some sort of import to the Others, we know this both from myth (Night's King) and from present day fact (Craster). What I am suggesting is that the Last Hero is not a Hero at all, he was a coward who sacrificed his own children to the Others.

This would mean there are two major similarities with Night's King and Last Hero (the 13th leader of a group) and sacrificing his own children. The name "Brandon" could be a third link.

So during the Long Night, the Last Hero kept sacrificing to the Others, which provided him with protection and possibly allowed him to give humans the impression that he was having success in the war against the Others.

The Nightfort would also have existed before the Wall, its where the Last Hero lived.

Then picking up at Bran's memory of Nan's tale of NK, enter the female Other who joins him at the Night Fort. My theroy is he met her after he made the pact with the Others. NK gave her his seed and soul meaning there was likely fruit from their union. This being would have both human powers and the powers of the Others. So i theorize this is where the Stark ability to Warg comes from. The Others control the skins of their wights, so in half-breed Others, why not the ability to skinchange?

The son grows up during the Long Night and his father tells him about his past. This son, Brandon the Builder is the one who ends up defeating his father, thus ending the Long Night. He then built the Wall just north of the Nightfort and set the Watch to guard it.

Hope that clarifies a bit but happy to elaborate more.

[Black Crow]

Totally agree with this i mean how could no one have said anything....So that could be a demonetization of him then?

That's the one! Get rid of him, run a whole slew of stories denouncing him as wicked, depraved and corrupt to justify his overthrow, and then better still produce that dodgy king-list to pretend that he never existed in the first place. Long Live the Revolution.