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Bakker XXV: A Few Questions


SilentRoamer

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That's not what the shield of Sil looks like, no?

You're saying that they did not open up Serwe's body to make sure?

I don't remember anyone doing that?

"Hae, some kind of apparent living god has turned up - lets go cut up his dead wife to check out the details. He wont be pissed or anything!"

It wasn't described and there seems motive for not doing it. Further, the blood dripped from the heart - I'm not sure that's how a many days old dead heart actually acts?

Seemed like a big ass metaphor made flesh, instead. Like the eye in the picts heart.

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"Hae, some kind of apparent living god has turned up - lets go cut up his dead wife to check out the details. He wont be pissed or anything!"

Not many thought he was a living god at that point and it's more like "Hey, this guy claims that the heart he's holding is his own heart - let's at least take a look at the person who was tied to him to make sure that it's not actually hers."

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Hmm. Good point about the blood dripping, it seems like it would have congealed by then.

So maybe the blood was from somewhere else.

Doesn't the blood crack the tiles upon which it falls?

@Faint:

The only ones who could help Kellhus pull off the Heart Trick without the Spires noticing the bruising of the onta would be the Cishaurim. And we've no reason to believe they can pull this off let alone were in the vicinity.

That said, the nature of glamors (illusions) is a weird one. We know skin-spies can be deceived by them (because of the one tricked into killing a supposed-Akka in TTT) so having a soul isn't a requirement...So does the glamor work on the neurology of brains? Why don't the Cants of Compulsion work this way, and allow Kellhus to meta-gnostically charm Elk to feed the Ordeal?

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I remember a W (or a V) with two S's on each side, but I can't find the quote now.

ETA: From excerpt of chapter one of TUC,

And the form, opposing S’s hooked about the arms of a V...

A shape no Son of the House Anasûrimbor could fail to recognize: the Shield of Sil.

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@faint, I agree with you 100%. Regardless of bakkers comments. I feel reading the series that we are told again and again of kellhuss's divinity (haloed, etc....). Its like it the only conclusion u should come to. We know kellhus went mad on the circumfix, per WLW what comes before. I think he's offering up the ordeal to the consult (as a sacrifice per se, for their souls.) But, this is where mirmara comes in. I think that she will confront kellhus with the TJE and reveal his damnation and evil intents. Long story short, the ordeal, akka , mimara, and me thinks the remaining Nonmen will fight back. Hence the only ones truly worried about damnation is the consult and sorcerer's. Kellhus will either die or unleash the no-god. Thus, that's why the 3rd trilogy cannot be named. The second apocalypse truly hasn't begun. Crackpot maybe, but to me its the only way to keep the story going. And best part of my theory....mirmara will be taught by akka, therefore your present day seswatha.

ETA: I guess it makes more sense for akka to be seswatha and either proyas or sorweel will be the new version of King Celmmomas (whou unites the remainder of humanity against the no-god. Shit kellhus could become no-god incarnate.) I'm just thrown shit around. Don't beat me up to bad, lol.

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But, this is where mirmara comes in. I think that she will confront kellhus with the TJE and reveal his damnation and evil intents.

Kellhus could still pull off a miracle while being damned. Perhaps he's like Christ but doesn't get to come out of Hell.

As for evil intent - what is evil? If he destroys the Consult but then disenchants the world is that evil?

And perhaps Mimara will see Kellhus, as she put it to Akka, "wreathed in glory"....

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Kellhus could still pull off a miracle while being damned. Perhaps he's like Christ but doesn't get to come out of Hell.

As for evil intent - what is evil? If he destroys the Consult but then disenchants the world is that evil?

And perhaps Mimara will see Kellhus, as she put it to Akka, "wreathed in glory"....

I can see all these things. I just either way its done really well, with appropriate explanations.

ETA: not left scratching our head not make what of it.,...

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Kellhus could still pull off a miracle while being damned. Perhaps he's like Christ but doesn't get to come out of Hell.

As for evil intent - what is evil? If he destroys the Consult but then disenchants the world is that evil?

And perhaps Mimara will see Kellhus, as she put it to Akka, "wreathed in glory"....

I actually wondered about the "wreathed in glory" quote because of the second half of the quote "Son of Heaven" , a label Mimara uses earlier, in TJE, for Kellhus. The

understanding by his believers of what Kellhus is, Prophet, Shaman, God, soul-whose soul is God-in-miniature, or a Christ like figure with human and divine attributes is deliberately vague. The only thing people can agree for certain is that he is more than a Man. Adding the orient-inspired moniker of "Son of Heaven" just muddies the waters even more.

Is Kellhus going to be the last Anasurimbor and therefore akin to Aragorn as the last Numenorean? Both come from great dynasties of a destroyed world.

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I can see all these things. I just either way its done really well, with appropriate explanations.

ETA: not left scratching our head not make what of it.,...

And you call yourself a Bakker fan!

Upon TUC's conclusion, we will be scratching our heads to the bone Samwell. To. The. Bone.

;-P

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The only ones who could help Kellhus pull off the Heart Trick without the Spires noticing the bruising of the onta would be the Cishaurim . . .

I think you are too dismissive of the possibility that the explanation for the supposed miracle is something we do not yet have the capacity to explain because the author has not shown his cards yet. Really, there is nothing stopping the author from inventing new cannon; that is what he has done in every single book until now.

As for evil intent - what is evil? If he destroys the Consult but then disenchants the world is that evil?

And perhaps Mimara will see Kellhus, as she put it to Akka, "wreathed in glory"....

I'm more fond of the angle that he is not willingly evil but in fact a pawn of the Consult without knowing it. I think that would be an even more surprising and satisfying conclusion to the current trilogy. I even imagine, if this is where the story is going, that Achamian will figure it all out but much too late to stop events from unfolding; ergo, the Second Apocalypse.

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I think you are too dismissive of the possibility that the explanation for the supposed miracle is something we do not yet have the capacity to explain because the author has not shown his cards yet. Really, there is nothing stopping the author from inventing new cannon; that is what he has done in every single book until now.




Well, by the same measure literally everything is up for grabs. Kellhus' real name is Altalon and he hails from the land of milk and cookies. How? Well, the author could just invent a new canon in TUC.



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Well, by the same measure literally everything is up for grabs. Kellhus' real name is Altalon and he hails from the land of milk and cookies. How? Well, the author could just invent a new canon in TUC.

I refer more to something in the nature of the Judging Eye. Non-existent as far as we were concerned going into the second trilogy, not even mentioned in the glossary of the previous trilogy, yet now immensely important to the conclusion of the next book if not beyond.

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I refer more to something in the nature of the Judging Eye. Non-existent as far as we were concerned going into the second trilogy, not even mentioned in the glossary of the previous trilogy, yet now immensely important to the conclusion of the next book if not beyond.

Yeah, but the problem is that you couldn't bring up something like that in TWP to explain some strange mechanic and still have a rich discussion. It's essentially a "wait and see", which seems fine but when you're looking for textual hints what's the point?

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I remember a W (or a V) with two S's on each side, but I can't find the quote now.

ETA: From excerpt of chapter one of TUC,

I can paraphrase the quote from the book: "Two S's connected at the top hooked over an upside down V"

The interesting thing is that those symbols are actually Omega (Two S's connected at the top) amd Lambda (upsode down V)

Wiki says this about Omega Lambda:

ΩΛ (Omega Lambda)

In lieu of the cosmological constant itself, cosmologists often refer to the ratio between the energy density due to the cosmological constant and the critical density of the universe. This ratio is usually denoted ΩΛ, and is estimated to be 0.692 ± 0.010, according to the recent Planck results released in 2013.[1] In a flat universe ΩΛ corresponds to the fraction of the energy density of the Universe due to the cosmological constant. Note that this definition is tied to the critical density of the present cosmological era: the critical density changes with cosmological time, but the energy density due to the cosmological constant remains unchanged throughout the history of the universe.

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Yeah, but the problem is that you couldn't bring up something like that in TWP to explain some strange mechanic and still have a rich discussion. It's essentially a "wait and see", which seems fine but when you're looking for textual hints what's the point?

A reasonable assumption is that the author wants to keep such information hidden in order to ensure surprise later. If it turns out in the next book that Kellhus is a fraud, whether willingly or not, Bakker will not have wanted to make it so plainly obvious beforehand. The scene with the heart is his biggest surety against that possibility (along with the halos I suppose). Given that, undermining the scene in any manner would be something of a risk, so he might have simply decided to play keep away with all information relating to how Kellhus or someone else pulled off the supposed miracle.

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I refer more to something in the nature of the Judging Eye. Non-existent as far as we were concerned going into the second trilogy, not even mentioned in the glossary of the previous trilogy, yet now immensely important to the conclusion of the next book if not beyond.

Yes I agree we could be thrown any cureveball, when i was reading TJE I was thinking WTF is this Judging Eye and when did this become important? Damnation came to the fore.

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