Bakker XXV: A Few Questions

[Anatúrinbor]

There's nothing about this stuff that precludes Kellhus from bending reality to his will during the Heart Miracle.

Your point was that sorcery has no rules, that's clearly wrong. And AFAWK this stuff does preclude him from using the Gnosis or the Psukhe.

That doesn't mean he didn't have some other way to [pull the heart out] though (he did of course). But whatever that way is it's still in line with the metaphysics of the world.

[Sci-2]

Your point was that sorcery has no rules, that's clearly wrong.

Okay....but do you see what I'm saying? The rules of logic & math that make up the Gnosis are not, in themselves, magical.

And AFAWK this stuff does preclude him from using the Gnosis or the Psukhe.

But the Gnosis is a refinement of meaning, a means to clarify one's intent to alter the onta. The same with the Psukhe.

Compare this with a magic system where the words are some magical language granted by Hermes, Thoth, or some other deity. In D&D, for example, the words are themselves magical.

But whatever that way is it's still in line with the metaphysics of the world.

If the underlying firmament of the onta is Mind, and all creatures great and small are part of the God - Itself both Dreamer and Dream - who resides in Kellhus's Here, then Kellhus simply has to will his intent upon the dream.

Now the onta may have bent because the World - who Bakker reminds us is a character - held the Dunyain's hand at the moment. But if we take to heart that Kellhus's enlightened nature has given him some command over space (and possibly time) it allows us to speculate & make sense of further miracles that may be forthcoming.

If not for Wise Fool's post, and Lockesnow prepping my mind to accept the hand of divinity, I'd never have accepted Kellhus reaching apotheosis - I'd have flung my copy of TUC in disgust. But now it makes an incredible amount of sense.

[Shryke]

Your point was that sorcery has no rules, that's clearly wrong.

Not really. His point is that the only rule is your intent, if you even want to bother calling that a rule. You must simply intend to do something strong enough and purely enough and it will happen.

All the "rules" exist to help focus normal(ish) minds into a state to intend strong enough for shit to happen. But those aids are not a necessary component of, well, altering reality. All the metaphysics of sorcery we are aware of relate to these aids.

Kellhus could potentially be capable of anything simply by wanting to do it, if he's in the right mental/spiritual state.

[themerchant]

Personally I don't think it's Big Moe. How would he hide the scars on his arms?

He healed them :)

[Callan S.]

What the hell is a hyper-spirtual state? And since when (supposing there is evidence for it) does it allow you to just do it?

What's this - you want miracles explained!?

You have to pay for the books for that, good sir! (or pirate them off the internet, but preferably the former)

Seriously, when I mention miracles, I'm refering to some sort of crazy unknown layer of the Earwa nanotech...sorry, I mean magic machine - being accessed by an emotional turmoil.

You do recall the Cish learnt their stuff originally from blind men who went under great emotional stress and created 'miracles'?

[Anatúrinbor]

It's odd that people argue that literally anything can happen and then get stumped when it comes to a few scars.

Okay....but do you see what I'm saying? The rules of logic & math that make up the Gnosis are not, in themselves, magical.

This distinction doesn't really matter because those rules apply to everyone - including Kellhus. If they didn't he wouldn't be using the Gnosis with all the 'baggage' that comes with it as any other Mandate schoolman would.

All the "rules" exist to help focus normal(ish) minds into a state to intend strong enough for shit to happen. But those aids are not a necessary component of, well, altering reality. All the metaphysics of sorcery we are aware of relate to these aids.

They are a necessary component for any human to alter reality.

The idea that we should dismiss all the rules associated with sorcery because The God of Gods can break them isn't very convincing to tell the truth.

Why bother creating a world with its own internal logic only to throw it out of the window later on by saying 'well, characters can turn into gods if they really wanted to, therefore anything can happen'?

[Wise Fool]

Was it a scarab knocking on the window?

(Really hope you consider documenting your experience in the Weird Events Thread.)

Hmm, yeah, it kind of was. Only there was no Jung to confirm the existence of the real-life scarab in my case.

I might write in that thread about it, I've thought about doing so before. Time will tell.

As to how it relates to the Bakkerverse, I'd not consider that Kellhus experiences a miracle and then that experience drives him to madness. Someone who continually looks for causal chains and parsimonious explanations might go insane trying to wrap their brain around something that breaks all the rules of reality as they understand it.

I also was thinking about the way magic works in Earwa. It doesn't technically run on specialized rules. The Cants are there to focus the meaning but it's really the intention of the Few that alters reality.

If Kellhus can, due to his supposed Enlightenment, direct certain actions at certain moments without the need of language, is this really a breaking of the way magic works? Perhaps in the moment of the Heart Miracle he unites the intellectual and experiential ways of knowing represented by the Gnosis and Psukhe respectively.

Well, it seems that Moe implied the possibiltiy that he thought Kellhus's experience had driven him insane. But, if Moe was indeed Coming Before Kellhus and had somehow predicted the experience, or preconditioned it all, then him suggesting the possibility of insanity to Kellhus was more like a test of faith. On the other hand, it's possible that Moe didn't predict the experience, or that it's effect on Kellhus was real, and was expressing genuine doubt as to his son's sanity. Unfortunately neither Kellhus nor Moe, in their discussion, reveal anything in their mannerisms to give lie or truth to their words, because fucking Dunyain. Kellhus seems to at times know what's going on, between the lines, thinking that he's leading Moe on ('let him think I'm insane' etc) but then does he? Or is he just deceiving himself? And they're clearly both trying to one-up the other, master all circumstances. I don't think that part of Kellhus has ever changed.

But I do think his heart miracle was similar to the Psukhe - it wasn't Gnostic or Anagogic sorcery, which he didn't know at the time, and he didn't have the Mark. Psukhe is described as deriving from passions of the soul, and whereas Moe's water seems pretty weak in that regard, Kellhus's experience - including his apparent compassion or sympathy regarding Serwe, and the circumfixion in general - might have given his stunted emotions enough of a kick so that he was in effect practicing Cishaurim-ish sorcery.

And perhaps this is what Inri Sejanus did with his healing, and maybe all the prophets - all of it a kind of divine sorcery that isn't related to utterable and unutterable strings and a philosophical, conscious intent but more to a primal, emotional and unconscious phenomenon. Specifically one catalyzed by suffering and/or compassion.

Which he might not be able to do now. "Love is for lesser mortals" and all that.

[Anatúrinbor]

Seriously, when I mention miracles, I'm refering to some sort of crazy unknown layer of the Earwa nanotech...sorry, I mean magic machine - being accessed by an emotional turmoil.

You do recall the Cish learnt their stuff originally from blind men who went under great emotional stress and created 'miracles'?

The way I see it, the Outside (whatever it is) is as much a part of Earwa as anything else in the 'inside'. It is not truly supernatural. Whatever Fane did or discovered to draw power from it is no more a miracle than using nuclear energy in our world is.

[Gaston de Foix]

Hmm, yeah, it kind of was. Only there was no Jung to confirm the existence of the real-life scarab in my case.

I might write in that thread about it, I've thought about doing so before. Time will tell.

Well, it seems that Moe implied the possibiltiy that he thought Kellhus's experience had driven him insane. But, if Moe was indeed Coming Before Kellhus and had somehow predicted the experience, or preconditioned it all, then him suggesting the possibility of insanity to Kellhus was more like a test of faith. On the other hand, it's possible that Moe didn't predict the experience, or that it's effect on Kellhus was real, and was expressing genuine doubt as to his son's sanity. Unfortunately neither Kellhus nor Moe, in their discussion, reveal anything in their mannerisms to give lie or truth to their words, because fucking Dunyain. Kellhus seems to at times know what's going on, between the lines, thinking that he's leading Moe on ('let him think I'm insane' etc) but then does he? Or is he just deceiving himself? And they're clearly both trying to one-up the other, master all circumstances. I don't think that part of Kellhus has ever changed.

But I do think his heart miracle was similar to the Psukhe - it wasn't Gnostic or Anagogic sorcery, which he didn't know at the time, and he didn't have the Mark. Psukhe is described as deriving from passions of the soul, and whereas Moe's water seems pretty weak in that regard, Kellhus's experience - including his apparent compassion or sympathy regarding Serwe, and the circumfixion in general - might have given his stunted emotions enough of a kick so that he was in effect practicing Cishaurim-ish sorcery.

And perhaps this is what Inri Sejanus did with his healing, and maybe all the prophets - all of it a kind of divine sorcery that isn't related to utterable and unutterable strings and a philosophical, conscious intent but more to a primal, emotional and unconscious phenomenon. Specifically one catalyzed by suffering and/or compassion.

Which he might not be able to do now. "Love is for lesser mortals" and all that.

What Sejenus did by healing was a direct response to the suffering of another. What Kellhus did in response to Serwe's suffering seems to have been to use that suffering for ultimately his own purposes.

I think the definition of "miracle" has been self-admittedly circular in these discussions. As this is a work of fiction, I think objective interpretations yield only so much insight in the face of deliberately engineered ambiguity.

[Wise Fool]

One might say Inri ultimately used that suffering (and the healing) for his own purposes, to solidify himself as a Prophet. That the healed were healed might only have been a means to that end, just like when Kellhus does his impromptu psychotherapy sessions which wind up resolving inner conflicts of others but also bending them toward his own purposes.

In any case, how did Inri accomplish healing?

I think it might be the same basic thing Kellhus pulled off at the circumfixion.

[Shryke]

They are a necessary component for any human to alter reality.

The idea that we should dismiss all the rules associated with sorcery because The God of Gods can break them isn't very convincing to tell the truth.

Why bother creating a world with its own internal logic only to throw it out of the window later on by saying 'well, characters can turn into gods if they really wanted to, therefore anything can happen'?

No, they aren't. Because within the setting, we know that they are only ways to focus intent. If you can do that another way, you don't need them. If Kellhus is in an altered state, he could easily do the same without those tools.

I don't know why you find that difficult.

[Kalbear]

Because within the setting, we know that they are only ways to focus intent.

We don't know that either, actually. That's what Akka thinks he understands and what Kellhus thinks he understands. But Akka also thought the Judging Eye was a myth. He's not exactly what you'd call a great narrator.

Also, it's not about focusing intent - it's about being perfect with respect to meaning. What you want isn't as important as what you say - being precise in the meaning is not the same as being stronger in intent. Intent implies desire, and it's not clear that desire has anything to do with what the Few do.

[lokisnow]

One might say Inri ultimately used that suffering (and the healing) for his own purposes, to solidify himself as a Prophet. That the healed were healed might only have been a means to that end, just like when Kellhus does his impromptu psychotherapy sessions which wind up resolving inner conflicts of others but also bending them toward his own purposes.

In any case, how did Inri accomplish healing?

I think it might be the same basic thing Kellhus pulled off at the circumfixion.

Healing the mind is the same as healing the body, the brain is an organ of the body, afterall.

[Shryke]

We don't know that either, actually. That's what Akka thinks he understands and what Kellhus thinks he understands. But Akka also thought the Judging Eye was a myth. He's not exactly what you'd call a great narrator.

Also, it's not about focusing intent - it's about being perfect with respect to meaning. What you want isn't as important as what you say - being precise in the meaning is not the same as being stronger in intent. Intent implies desire, and it's not clear that desire has anything to do with what the Few do.

Right, yes. My bad.

Either way, according to our understanding, the rules of sorcery we know all exist to focus the meaning to the point where it can effect reality. That means if one can find another way (like the Cishaurim have), one can accomplish the same with completely different means. Ones that "break all the rules".

[Wise Fool]

Healing the mind is the same as healing the body, the brain is an organ of the body, afterall.

Well, but healing the mind is not the same as healing the brain. One can have mental issues that need healing without also having neurophysiological issues. And we know that Kellhus can't seem to heal physical injuries or conditions like Inri Sejanus could.

[Sci-2]

Well, but healing the mind is not the same as healing the brain. One can have mental issues that need healing without also having neurophysiological issues. And we know that Kellhus can't seem to heal physical injuries or conditions like Inri Sejanus could.

I think Lockesnow is saying the body and mind are [both] part of the God's dream in the Bakkerverse? [And thus distinction is just semantics?]

But it does get confusing as Bakker fans are often skeptics discussing a world that has hints of animism/pantheism and Idealism.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

We know the gods exist. Whether demons or large ciphrang as the Cish suggest, or the hundred as the inrithi viewed them. Now metaphysics aside, we know communicate with people and can "try" to shape events.

My question is based on the fact that kellhus knows they are against him. Why? Is it because kellhus grasping the absolute and becoming the god of gods renders them moot. Or that they will be shut out when he reaches the absolute. Therefore, in theory his goals align with the consult regardless if he has accepted this or not.

I'm really starting to believe that why he is mad, is because the TTT can lead him to the absolute. Although it can't show him the effects of what reaching the absolute will actually mean. Whether he is the god of gods or basically the no-god reincarnate.

I got a itchy feeling its the latter. And, this 3rd series yet to be named is going to be the "true" 2nd apocalypse.

ETA: correct me if I'm wrong, but when akka has the dream whenbking celmommas give his prophecy of the return of one if his kin at the end of the world, it never stated that that kin will be a savior is it? I don't think so only that one will return. I take it the mandate just believes he will save the world. Maybe their wrong and they'll have to save the world from him.

[Anatúrinbor]

I think the definition of "miracle" has been self-admittedly circular in these discussions. As this is a work of fiction, I think objective interpretations yield only so much insight in the face of deliberately engineered ambiguity.

Taking the setting into account isn't a circular argument.

re, magic rules: Is being one of the Few a way to focus intent/meaning?

If Kellhus is in an altered state, he could easily do the same without those tools.

Why does Kellhus need the hand of God to accomplish this anyway?

Kellhus could potentially be capable of anything simply by wanting to do it, if he's in the right mental/spiritual state.

Serious question: Can he do things like turn into a dragon or make the Consult disappear all of a sudden simply by willing it if he was in this supposed state?

[SilentRoamer]

re, magic rules: Is being one of the Few a way to focus intent/meaning?

I think it being one of the Few is determined by your intellect and inate ability to express clarity of intent. I dont think it is so much focus as clarity. I see it as the difference between opening your mouth and saying "In my hand I hold a sword" and "In my hand I hold (Insert perfect description on an atomice level of sword composition)" For me it is all about absolute intent and absolute clarity, the 2nd innuteral adds another layer in complexity of statement.

Just like to add - The first I ever read about this Heart up Kellhus Anus theory and I think it would be a real stretch of any sort of credibility if thats what happened - maybe he also had some gasoline and a lighter up his ass so he could light it on fire! I think Kellhus went mad on the cross and performed a miracle. Why is it beyond a man like Kellhus to release the Water without being blinded? We already know Fane found the Psukhe on his own. What could a man like Kellhus do, with his intellect (which I believe would matter) fuelled by insanity and an intense emotional connection to all things? I honestly think he just went Meta-Insanity-Psukhe, and not Butt-up-his-Anus.

[lokisnow]

the first I ever read the theory, I took it is a lame joke. A riff on the common phrase, "he pulled that out of his ass." then it became a sort of thread meme...