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Bakker XXV: A Few Questions


SilentRoamer

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Even if the heart thing was a miracle, how did it occur to Kellhus to do it anyway? How did he know that this miracle was possible at that point?

By connecting with the God of Gods.

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By connecting with the God of Gods.

For all we know there is no such thing as the God of Gods. It's a stretch to claim that someone can 'connect' with him and then perform strange miracles out of nowhere.

I think the solution has something to do with what happened with the eye in the heart thing.

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Even if the heart thing was a miracle, how did it occur to Kellhus to do it anyway? How did he know that this miracle was possible at that point?

Because he was in some sort of hyper-spiritual state. And so he just did it.

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Because he was in some sort of hyper-spiritual state. And so he just did it.

What the hell is a hyper-spirtual state? And since when (supposing there is evidence for it) does it allow you to just do it?

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What the hell is a hyper-spirtual state? And since when (supposing there is evidence for it) does it allow you to just do it?

The text indicates some sort of connection with everything. It's a moment of transcendence. And at that moment, he becomes capable of something miracle-esque. He doesn't need to know how to do it, he simply does it.

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The text indicates some sort of connection with everything. It's a moment of transcendence. And at that moment, he becomes capable of something miracle-esque. He doesn't need to know how to do it, he simply does it.

You're saying the text indicates that Kellhus at that moment was connected to everything? or that everything is connected in the first place and at that moment Kellhus transcended?

If it's the latter I think it's mostly baseless speculation. We don't know that someone can just 'transcend' (or if such a thing exists). But even if we're going to speculate that they can, we still can't reach the conclusion that I underlined.

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You're saying the text indicates that Kellhus at that moment was connected to everything? or that everything is connected in the first place and at that moment Kellhus transcended?

Yes, something like that. It's obvious he is in some sort of altered, and one might say higher, state. He feels as if "there was nothing, no dwarfing frame, that could restrict him to this place, to any place ... He was all things, and all things were his ..."

It's obviously a moment of transcendence.

If it's the latter I think it's mostly baseless speculation. We don't know that someone can just 'transcend' (or if such a thing exists). But even if we're going to speculate that they can, we still can't reach the conclusion that I underlined.

It's not baseless speculation. It's based, rather firmly, in the text, as quoted above. And we can reach the conclusion above from that. He is in some sort of other state of thinking/being and (especially in Earwa) this would imply new possibilities or abilities for him.

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Yes, something like that. It's obvious he is in some sort of altered, and one might say higher, state. He feels as if "there was nothing, no dwarfing frame, that could restrict him to this place, to any place ... He was all things, and all things were his ..."

It's obviously a moment of transcendence.

The above are his thought. He thought he was in some altered state, no doubt, that doesn't mean he 'transcended'. It's possible I guess, but not necessary or obvious. He could have been wrong. He could have been deluded or being manipulated by someone.

What metaphysical explanation is there for how/why someone can just 'transcend' all of a sudden?

Plus, someone said in the previous thread IIRC that there was a scene where Kellhus explains something to Cnaiur that sheds light on the heart thing. For him to tell Cnaiur about this transcendence implies that he understood it beforehand.

It's not baseless speculation. It's based, rather firmly, in the text, as quoted above. And we can reach the conclusion above from that. He is in some sort of other state of thinking/being and (especially in Earwa) this would imply new possibilities or abilities for him.

Okay, it's based on the above. But if anything I am less inclined to believe Kellhus' thoughts at that moment (where he seems most deluded) more than any other.

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What metaphysical explanation is there for how/why someone can just 'transcend' all of a sudden?

It's a miracle, the sort of thing that defies explanation.

Okay, it's based on the above. But if anything I am less inclined to believe Kellhus' thoughts at that moment (where he seems most deluded) more than any other.

The more deluded a character seems, the more you should be paying attention to him. With this series, anyway.

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The above are his thought. He thought he was in some altered state, no doubt, that doesn't mean he 'transcended'. It's possible I guess, but not necessary or obvious. He could have been wrong. He could have been deluded or being manipulated by someone.

What metaphysical explanation is there for how/why someone can just 'transcend' all of a sudden?

Well, there are gods, and an Outside, and so religious experiences actually happen in Earwa, and aren't just delusions. Mysticism, gnosticism, transcendence, liberation, enlightenment, finding the kingdom of heaven, 'attaining the Absolute' - in real world religious philosophy, and the in-universe actualized religious mythology, these things all indicate a sudden, transformative, and ultimately divine experience which defies rationality as well as rationalizations.

Personally I would take Kellhus's POV as having more credibility than your grasping speculations. What textual evidence is there that he was being manipulated by someone? Who? When? How? If he was delusional, where did the heart come from?

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Well, there are gods, and an Outside, and so religious experiences actually happen in Earwa, and aren't just delusions. Mysticism, gnosticism, transcendence, liberation, enlightenment, finding the kingdom of heaven, 'attaining the Absolute' - in real world religious philosophy, and the in-universe actualized religious mythology, these things all indicate a sudden, transformative, and ultimately divine experience which defies rationality as well as rationalizations.

No they don't, all these things have metaphysical explanations. (The ones that we know are possible anyway, because some of your examples we don't know much about.)

Personally I would take Kellhus's POV as having more credibility than your grasping speculations. What textual evidence is there that he was being manipulated by someone? Who? When? How? If he was delusional, where did the heart come from?

That was a response to the idea that Kellhus 'obviously' transcended. It's not obvious because there are several other possibilities, and that was one of them.

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No they don't, all these things have metaphysical explanations. (The ones that we know are possible anyway, because some of your examples we don't know much about.)

That was a response to the idea that Kellhus 'obviously' transcended. It's not obvious because there are several other possibilities, and that was one of them.

I'm not sure what your first point here is. All of those things are in essence just different terms for the same thing, and I'm not sure what sort of metaphysical explanation you have in mind for some of those that can't also be applied to what Kellhus experienced.

And while technically there are other possibilities, the question is how plausible are they, what evidence for them is there, and which are really just wild speculations. I mean maybe a monkey robot inserted a brain parasite into him when he was sleeping on the circumfix, you can't prove that didn't happen! And these alternate theories sound just about as crackpot. Kellhus shoving hearts up his butt. Hidden Cishaurim casting spells. Gunmen on the grassy knoll.

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And while technically there are other possibilities, the question is how plausible are they, what evidence for them is there, and which are really just wild speculations. I mean maybe a monkey robot inserted a brain parasite into him when he was sleeping on the circumfix, you can't prove that didn't happen! And these alternate theories sound just about as crackpot. Kellhus shoving hearts up his butt. Hidden Cishaurim casting spells. Gunmen on the grassy knoll.

This is a very silly answer. Whenever a character thinks that they have turned into a God/transcended/whathaveyou (even momentarily) then it is likely that they are wrong, i.e. they're deluded (even in Earwa). And even if you don't think it's 'likely', it's still a very plausible answer.

The second possibility that I mentioned is that he was being manipulated by someone. I guess you might have a point there, I mean it's not like we learn in the next book that the entire holy war that he's been fighting is the result of his father's conditioning or anything...

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This is a very silly answer. Whenever a character thinks that they have turned into a God/transcended/whathaveyou (even momentarily) then it is likely that they are wrong, i.e. they're deluded (even in Earwa). And even if you don't think it's 'likely', it's still a very plausible answer.

Ah, I understand, it's like in the prologue, Kellhus THINKS he encountered sorcery when Mekeritrig hits him with an Odanni Concussion Cant, but it is more likely that he was wrong, i.e. he's deluded. It wasn't really sorcery, there's a perfectly mundane explanation for what happened.
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This is a very silly answer. Whenever a character thinks that they have turned into a God/transcended/whathaveyou (even momentarily) then it is likely that they are wrong, i.e. they're deluded (even in Earwa). And even if you don't think it's 'likely', it's still a very plausible answer.

Actually, in Earwa, it seems like every time someone thinks they turned into a God/transcended/whathaveyou they appear to be absolutely correct and not deluded in the slightest.

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What was the excuse Kellhus gave for not being able to heal people like Inri did? The guy who failed at trying to rescue Akka from the Spires said that was evidence against Kellhus, as prophets are meant to be able to heal people.


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Actually, in Earwa, it seems like every time someone thinks they turned into a God/transcended/whathaveyou they appear to be absolutely correct and not deluded in the slightest.

So...Conphas wasn't a narcissist but a failed messiah?

eta: How are are we willing to take Lockesnowe's philosophy of taking the supernatural explanations instead of the mundane ones?

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