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Reconciling Northern Myths: Last Hero is Night's King


Lord Martin

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I like what you have said, what you were able to put very eloquently down, but I prefer the version presented by OP, i think it fits a little bit better.

Interesting. I thought this was more detailed than my OP and accounts for how reality can be distorted over time into legend and then myth. But I suppose its the gaps that make reading and theorizing all the more fun.

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Interesting. I thought this was more detailed than my OP and accounts for how reality can be distorted over time into legend and then myth. But I suppose its the gaps that make reading and theorizing all the more fun.

I might just be more attached to that timeline as well... I've been kind of obsessing over it for a while. Yours was bloody brilliant, though, 100% plausible. My only real issue is that Brandon the Builder is given so much credit for building the Wall, Winterfell and Storm's End (as a boy, indicating the previous builds were done as an adult) that I think it would be a major miss (not impossible) to not credit his father for the real work.

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I might just be more attached to that timeline as well... I've been kind of obsessing over it for a while. Yours was bloody brilliant, though, 100% plausible. My only real issue is that Brandon the Builder is given so much credit for building the Wall, Winterfell and Storm's End (as a boy, indicating the previous builds were done as an adult) that I think it would be a major miss (not impossible) to not credit his father for the real work.

Oh I think Brandon the Builder did build the Wall. I just suggest he didn't lay the first foundations but added to what his father started. And of course if the First Foundations were actually laid by his father, aka the Night's King, whose name has been stricken from history, the result would be Brandon the Builder gets the credit.

We also know the Joramun woke giants from the Earth to help build Winterfell and perhaps the Wall and that he was also involved in the Downfall of Night's King.

Sounds like Brandon and Joramun were allies for a time... then I'm guessing the Wall became a big issue causing Joramun to move south where he broke his strength on the Wall he built with Brandon or at Brandon's hands, as stated in the text.

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While I think the nights king could be the last hero... I'm gonna play devils advocate.

I'd just like to point out that the leaders in qarth are 13.

There's some good ideas in this thread but besides the number 13... Is there anything else that actually connects the last hero with the nights king?

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I buy it! I'm sure someone has pointed this out already, but Bran's ability to Hodor could be added in here. Many assumed it's because Hodor is so simple, but Jojen says no one can Warg a human. Well, the Others control dead bodies, why can't Bran control a live one?

To be fair, I think Jojen is simply incorrect. Varamyr Sixskins gets close to warging a human, and Haggon mentions it's seen as an "abomination" to warg into a human. This leads me to believe it isn't impossible to warg a human, so Jojen is just incorrect (though I don't even remember him saying it's impossible).

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Okay let me seriously try to nail down the timeline for this time traveler character then:



first, in order to be the Last Hero, he's born hundreds if not thousands of years before the 13th Lord Commander (Night King) would have been born....


....then, he becomes known as the Last Hero during his "first" lifespan because of stuff he does (way before the rise of Night King).....


then he gets Otherized when he bites off more than he can chew...... (immortalized, vampire style) (must be) (because of how he has to have some excuse for sticking around long enough to become the NK......)


...... then he goes into hiding in the far North ice until he re-emerges AS A HUMAN (or sufficiently human to fool the Night's Watch into voting him in as LC.....


....then, LIKE EMPEROR PALPATINE, he "turns" (reverts) into the Night King he's really already been for hundreds of years (and blames some Cold Woman as his means of explaining away the "transformation" his men just saw him go through. When really he must have already been an immortal figure, a cold-turned entity, to explain his longevity.


.....then he's driven out after the North rejects his twisted regime, and goes back into the deep far north ice for even more centuries, until the present.




Uh. This is not a deeply satisfying way to go. There's gotta be an easier way, such as just letting these two characters be separate folks.


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While I think the nights king could be the last hero... I'm gonna play devils advocate.

I'd just like to point out that the leaders in qarth are 13.

There's some good ideas in this thread but besides the number 13... Is there anything else that actually connects the last hero with the nights king?

I don't think there are other explicit connections, but there's the idea that the Night's King may have been a Brandon Stark, even as a Brandon Stark is held responsible for the building of the Wall. But unlike the Thirteen in Qarth, the Last Hero and his 12 companions are of the same time period of the Night's King.

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Okay let me seriously try to nail down the timeline for this time traveler character then:

first, in order to be the Last Hero, he's born hundreds if not thousands of years before the 13th Lord Commander (Night King) would have been born....

....then, he becomes known as the Last Hero during his "first" lifespan because of stuff he does (way before the rise of Night King).....

then he gets Otherized when he bites off more than he can chew...... (immortalized, vampire style) (must be) (because of how he has to have some excuse for sticking around long enough to become the NK......)

...... then he goes into hiding in the far North ice until he re-emerges AS A HUMAN (or sufficiently human to fool the Night's Watch into voting him in as LC.....

....then, LIKE EMPEROR PALPATINE, he "turns" (reverts) into the Night King he's really already been for hundreds of years (and blames some Cold Woman as his means of explaining away the "transformation" his men just saw him go through. When really he must have already been an immortal figure, a cold-turned entity, to explain his longevity.

.....then he's driven out after the North rejects his twisted regime, and goes back into the deep far north ice for even more centuries, until the present.

Uh. This is not a deeply satisfying way to go. There's gotta be an easier way, such as just letting these two characters be separate folks.

I feel like Lord Martin's OP clearly puts the NK and LHs lifetimes much closer together, with supporting evidence... can you disprove?

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Okay let me seriously try to nail down the timeline for this time traveler character then:

first, in order to be the Last Hero, he's born hundreds if not thousands of years before the 13th Lord Commander (Night King) would have been born....

....then, he becomes known as the Last Hero during his "first" lifespan because of stuff he does (way before the rise of Night King).....

then he gets Otherized when he bites off more than he can chew...... (immortalized, vampire style) (must be) (because of how he has to have some excuse for sticking around long enough to become the NK......)

...... then he goes into hiding in the far North ice until he re-emerges AS A HUMAN (or sufficiently human to fool the Night's Watch into voting him in as LC.....

....then, LIKE EMPEROR PALPATINE, he "turns" (reverts) into the Night King he's really already been for hundreds of years (and blames some Cold Woman as his means of explaining away the "transformation" his men just saw him go through. When really he must have already been an immortal figure, a cold-turned entity, to explain his longevity.

.....then he's driven out after the North rejects his twisted regime, and goes back into the deep far north ice for even more centuries, until the present.

Uh. This is not a deeply satisfying way to go. There's gotta be an easier way, such as just letting these two characters be separate folks.

Let me quote Sam from AFfC:

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The first Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it.

But even with that caveat, isn't the Night's Watch said to have been established with the building of the Wall? And in any event, as I understand it the OP is suggesting that the stories are just a slight bit off: that the Night's Watch comes into being with the death of the Night's King, perhaps only then with the explicit directives found in their vows, as noted by butterbumps!"

Would an adjacent point to this theory be that perhaps the Watch vows are much more literal than we might have thought?

I mean, if the LH is the founder of the Watch and the NK, and it goes as you say, were the vows created in response to that as a very literal measure against the Others? I'm mostly referring to I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. In other words, is an adjacent point that these vows were originally mandated so that the men of this organization weren't having children to sacrifice for power or something, and became understood much differently over time?

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Oh I think Brandon the Builder did build the Wall. I just suggest he didn't lay the first foundations but added to what his father started. And of course if the First Foundations were actually laid by his father, aka the Night's King, whose name has been stricken from history, the result would be Brandon the Builder gets the credit.

We also know the Joramun woke giants from the Earth to help build Winterfell and perhaps the Wall and that he was also involved in the Downfall of Night's King.

Sounds like Brandon and Joramun were allies for a time... then I'm guessing the Wall became a big issue causing Joramun to move south where he broke his strength on the Wall he built with Brandon or at Brandon's hands, as stated in the text.

Yeah....I've always read the fables of Bran the Builder as a foundational myth. There is no friggin way that an lliterate bronze age society living in a cold temperate climate would be able to build something like the Wall. It's 700 feet high and 300 miles long! It makes the great pyramids look like childrens toys. Clearly the wall was built with magic either by the CotF or by someone else, maybe the Others themselves, after all it's based on ice magic.

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Okay let me seriously try to nail down the timeline for this time traveler character then:

first, in order to be the Last Hero, he's born hundreds if not thousands of years before the 13th Lord Commander (Night King) would have been born....

....then, he becomes known as the Last Hero during his "first" lifespan because of stuff he does (way before the rise of Night King).....

then he gets Otherized when he bites off more than he can chew...... (immortalized, vampire style) (must be) (because of how he has to have some excuse for sticking around long enough to become the NK......)

...... then he goes into hiding in the far North ice until he re-emerges AS A HUMAN (or sufficiently human to fool the Night's Watch into voting him in as LC.....

....then, LIKE EMPEROR PALPATINE, he "turns" (reverts) into the Night King he's really already been for hundreds of years (and blames some Cold Woman as his means of explaining away the "transformation" his men just saw him go through. When really he must have already been an immortal figure, a cold-turned entity, to explain his longevity.

.....then he's driven out after the North rejects his twisted regime, and goes back into the deep far north ice for even more centuries, until the present.

Uh. This is not a deeply satisfying way to go. There's gotta be an easier way, such as just letting these two characters be separate folks.

Here's my take FWIW.

The Others are in fact the original Nights Watch. Look at the vow again

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Few things to take from that. First note the name, nights watch, why has GRRM chosen to call them that? We assume it's from the last long winter, but what if it's because the original Nights Watch only operated in the cold depths, the dark places, to defend the realm? It's emphasized in the vow, 'for this night and all the nights to come'. So not day time?? It's a strange thing to pledge.

Then there is their vow to take no wife and father no child. The vow a priest would make, and again common thinking is they took this vow to prevent conflict within the order, but what if instead it was taken because when a recruit 'took the black' back in the day it meant being transformed into another physical state where fathering chidren became impossible?

The fire that burns against the cold I've always taken to mean that the NW was in fact lightbringer, the 'sword' that will defeat the great enemy. But really? Even at it's peak they were a few thousand human soldiers, and now? A rag tag collection numbering a few hundred. But what if the brotherhood was something else thousands of years ago, what if it was made up of transformed first men gifted terrible powers? Would the NW as the lightbringer who defeated the great enemy make more sense then?

And now we know that at least 14 of the Others, including the Ranger who collected Craster's baby, were dressed as Crows, and that their leader was a former Lord Commander of the NW! It seems we're only scratching the surface of where GRRM is going with this, which is a testament to his briilance as a writer.

Something happened to turn the Nights Watch against the realm of men? Some terrible event, perhaps the NK rebeled, maybe the CotF exiled them somehow. Anyway by really out there prediction is that Jon Snow, sworn brother and Lord Commander of the Nights Watch is destined to lead the Others back into the realm of men by being transformed into a WW himself. I have very little in the way of evidence to back that up I admit :)

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I think the LH was Brandon the Builder and the NK was his brother. Their stories are partially intertwined and merged into one another with time. A representation of their story is happening right now.



Bran’s arc resembles the story of the LH in many ways which has been discussed in several threads. He had a dozen companions at the beginning, which can be ordered (according to the time of disappearance to Bran) like this: Ned, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Cat, Robb, Old Nan, Luwin, Rickon, Jojen, Meera, Hodor. The last three (or the last two according to Jojenpaste theories) are not lost to him yet. Of course most of them are still alive but they are practically lost to him for the time being.



While Bran’s arc is progressing similar to LH, Jon’s story is filled with the elements from the Night’s King.



Jon;


  1. has 13 chapters in ADwD, in which he served as the LC of the NW.
  2. applied highly unorthodox policies which seemed as high treason by some.
  3. reopened 10 old castles. This makes a total of 13 castles (including the Nightfort) presently.
  4. was accused to be in league with the enemy (wildlings).
  5. A white beauty (Val) whose green eyes turned blue after returning from the Haunted Forest is trying to seduce Jon.
  6. was betrayed and assassinated by his comrades.


The NK;


  1. reigned for 13 years.
  2. committed terrible atrocities during his reign. I bet these were his highly unorthodox policies in fighting the Others.
  3. commanded 13 castles on the Wall (the others were probably not built back then) with probably the Nightfort (largest castle) being the primary castle.
  4. was most probably accused to be in league with the enemy (Others).
  5. took a female Other (a white beauty with blue eyes) as his Queen. Maybe he tried to make peace and seal it with a marriage agreement.
  6. was betrayed and assassinated by his comrades.


The fall of the NK happened according to the following quote of Nietzsche:



He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.



He was sworn to fight the Others but he ended up as a thrall of the Others. He was transformed into the monster he was sworn to fight.



At the end, Joramun and Brandon the Builder united their forces to defeat him. I think it is possible that they buried him alive into the Wall and Brandon the Builder planted a weirwood tree at the Black Gate in his body. His life force was absorbed into the tree and he was punished to hear and respond to the vows of the NW each time a true brother passes as long as the Wall stands. It is possible that Jon will be put in an ice cell and he will be tied to the Wall by his blood. I think he will get out after strengthening his vows.


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I think the LH was Brandon the Builder and the NK was his brother. Their stories are partially intertwined and merged into one another with time. A representation of their story is happening right now.

Bran’s arc resembles the story of the LH in many ways which has been discussed in several threads. He had a dozen companions at the beginning, which can be ordered (according to the time of disappearance to Bran) like this: Ned, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Cat, Robb, Old Nan, Luwin, Rickon, Jojen, Meera, Hodor. The last three (or the last two according to Jojenpaste theories) are not lost to him yet. Of course most of them are still alive but they are practically lost to him for the time being.

While Bran’s arc is progressing similar to LH, Jon’s story is filled with the elements from the Night’s King.

Jon;

  1. has 13 chapters in ADwD, in which he served as the LC of the NW.

applied highly unorthodox policies which seemed as high treason by some.

reopened 10 old castles. This makes a total of 13 castles (including the Nightfort) presently.

was accused to be in league with the enemy (wildlings).

A white beauty (Val) whose green eyes turned blue after returning from the Haunted Forest is trying to seduce Jon.

was betrayed and assassinated by his comrades.

The NK;

  1. reigned for 13 years.

committed terrible atrocities during his reign. I bet these were his highly unorthodox policies in fighting the Others.

commanded 13 castles on the Wall (the others were probably not built back then) with probably the Nightfort (largest castle) being the primary castle.

was most probably accused to be in league with the enemy (Others).

took a female Other (a white beauty with blue eyes) as his Queen. Maybe he tried to make peace and seal it with a marriage agreement.

was betrayed and assassinated by his comrades.

The fall of the NK happened according to the following quote of Nietzsche:

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

He was sworn to fight the Others but he ended up as a thrall of the Others. He was transformed into the monster he was sworn to fight.

At the end, Joramun and Brandon the Builder united their forces to defeat him. I think it is possible that they buried him alive into the Wall and Brandon the Builder planted a weirwood tree at the Black Gate in his body. His life force was absorbed into the tree and he was punished to hear and respond to the vows of the NW each time a true brother passes as long as the Wall stands. It is possible that Jon will be put in an ice cell and he will be tied to the Wall by his blood. I think he will get out after strengthening his vows.

That's a great post, but hasn't the HBO show all but confirmed that the NK is in fact an Other?

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Okay let me seriously try to nail down the timeline for this time traveler character then:

first, in order to be the Last Hero, he's born hundreds if not thousands of years before the 13th Lord Commander (Night King) would have been born....

....then, he becomes known as the Last Hero during his "first" lifespan because of stuff he does (way before the rise of Night King).....

then he gets Otherized when he bites off more than he can chew...... (immortalized, vampire style) (must be) (because of how he has to have some excuse for sticking around long enough to become the NK......)

...... then he goes into hiding in the far North ice until he re-emerges AS A HUMAN (or sufficiently human to fool the Night's Watch into voting him in as LC.....

....then, LIKE EMPEROR PALPATINE, he "turns" (reverts) into the Night King he's really already been for hundreds of years (and blames some Cold Woman as his means of explaining away the "transformation" his men just saw him go through. When really he must have already been an immortal figure, a cold-turned entity, to explain his longevity.

.....then he's driven out after the North rejects his twisted regime, and goes back into the deep far north ice for even more centuries, until the present.

Uh. This is not a deeply satisfying way to go. There's gotta be an easier way, such as just letting these two characters be separate folks.

Yeah, I agree with you. Thanx to the TV show, I've re-reading lot of about the Last Hero and the Knight's King. While fan made fiction and theories can be very enticing, often times it can be so convoluted and based on wishful thinking that I rarely find it convincing after some deep analysis.

I've come to conclusion that Last Hero and the Night's King are two different person. In case of Last Hero, he probably was rescued by Children of Forest who provided him with Obsidian weapon to defeat Others. It's this event that probably started the tradition of CoF giving Obsidian weapons to the Nighwatch, a practice noted by Sam Tarly.

Lot of times simplest answers are often the right ones.

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