The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien: How "evil" are Feanör and his sons?

[LordBloodraven]

They have a bad rep. in the Silmarillion but I'm not sure that I can blame them for the turn of events. The First Kinslaying was wrong but the Second and Third?

Feanör was perhaps a little dramatic but truly, the Silmarils are his and he doesn't have to yield them even to the VValars when he "poured his soul" into their makings. He should not have attacked the Teleri and seized their ships though at Alqualonde. But for all the rest, I see no fault in his acts and those of his sons.

Truly, why did Dior Eluchil decide to keep the Silmaril as his jewel when they were never his? Why did Elwing and Earendil flee to Sirion with the Silmaril and not yield it to those that rightfully own it and are sworn to recover them. Maedhros, Maglor, Caranthir are more tragic than anything. Celegorm was kind of an ass but that's no big deal.

What do you think? Is their reputation truly deserved? I think their fates were tragic (particularly Maedhros and Maglor) and it's a shame that there was no representative of the House of Feanor during the later ages

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I feel that they were caught up in the moment when they swore that oath, unaware of how tragic the consequences would be. And yes I agree about Maedros and Maglor, I felt bad for them.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Obsessive to the point of insanity but, no, not "evil" in the sense that they delighted in harming people.

[Altherion]

They have a bad rep. in the Silmarillion but I'm not sure that I can blame them for the turn of events. The First Kinslaying was wrong but the Second and Third?

The Second and Third were also wrong since the sons of Feanor no longer had any right to the Silmaril because of the First.

Feanör was perhaps a little dramatic but truly, the Silmarils are his and he doesn't have to yield them even to the VValars when he "poured his soul" into their makings. He should not have attacked the Teleri and seized their ships though at Alqualonde.

Not giving up the Silmaril was a mistake, but it was not morally wrong in and of itself. However, the murder of the Teleri is unforgivable. They could have done what Galadriel and company did and crossed the ice, but they chose the dark and easy way. If I remember correctly, that's how Sauron wins his duel of songs with Finrod and in general it's made pretty clear that this is the point of no return.

But for all the rest, I see no fault in his acts and those of his sons.

Really? Not even when two of them kidnapped Luthien and subsequently tried to kill her and Beren? Some of them were not nice at all, even without the Silmaril business.

Truly, why did Dior Eluchil decide to keep the Silmaril as his jewel when they were never his? Why did Elwing and Earendil flee to Sirion with the Silmaril and not yield it to those that rightfully own it and are sworn to recover them. Maedhros, Maglor, Caranthir are more tragic than anything. Celegorm was kind of an ass but that's no big deal.

Dior kept it because the Silmarils have the same possession issue as the Ring -- they're good rather than evil, but everyone who sees one wants it and very few can let of one once they have it. But in any case, the Silmarils were didn't belong to the sons of Feanor at that point. In fact, once the remaining two sons finally get their hands on the gems, the latter burn their hands just to make this absolutely clear.

What do you think? Is their reputation truly deserved? I think their fates were tragic (particularly Maedhros and Maglor) and it's a shame that there was no representative of the House of Feanor during the later ages

There's no doubt their fate is tragic, but to a considerable extent, they brought it upon themselves.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Dior also kept it because his parents were the ones to (heroically) get the thing out of Angband, and because of the past actions of the Feanorians (recall that his granddad Thingol forbade Quenya to be spoken in Doriath for this reason - the Teleri are family). Ditto Elwing: the jewel was rescued by her grandparents, and why should she give that up to the people who had murdered her father and destroyed her home?

[Oblique]

Here's the text commenting on the right of the House of Feanor concerning the Silmarils after the War of Wrath:

And they sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him. But Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens.

Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Silmarillion (Kindle Locations 4821-4824). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

[The Marquis de Leech]

it's a shame that there was no representative of the House of Feanor during the later ages

For all we know, Maglor is still wandering the shore. ;)

[sologdin]

The Second and Third were also wrong since the sons of Feanor no longer had any right to the Silmaril because of the First.

an oddity. i would expect title to the chattels at issue to vest irrespective of the alleged moral defects of the claimants thereto.

Maglor is still wandering the shore

i am enamored of this thesis. can't there be a pleasant fanfic wherein maglor survives the ruin of beleriand, hides underground until the third age, becoming a nameless thing that gnaws the root of zirakzigal, present for the olorin v balrog duel, kills B, resurrects O with a jaunty song, then goes to orodruin, fishes the ring out of the magma, and then leads the rebellion during the fourth age in the sequel lord of the rings 2: the revenge of the ring, which sees the destruction of feudal monarchy and the beginning of socilalist democracy?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I always wanted to read a story of Maglor coming upon a farmstead and playin for his dinner without the farmer ever realizing who he was hosting.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The Second and Third were also wrong since the sons of Feanor no longer had any right to the Silmaril because of the First.

an oddity. i would expect title to the chattels at issue to vest irrespective of the alleged moral defects of the claimants thereto.

Assuming we're talking civil action, it'd have to be a claim of detinue, since that would allow the return of the Silmarils. That said, since the value of one of them has been increased via the attachment of the Nauglamir, I think monetary compensation more likely there.

[Tears of Lys]

Tolkien is flopping around in his grave right about now.

[Derfel Cadarn]

The exercise will do him good

[Shinrei]

For myself, the House of Finwë is more of a House full of tragic anti-heroes than a House of evil elves. If you want to put blame on anyone, i think Melkor is the one who has to take it. And maybe Eru for not clapping his bad child on the fingers the first time it started being disonant and greedy ;)

[sologdin]

Assuming we're talking civil action, it'd have to be a claim of detinue, since that would allow the return of the Silmarils. That said, since the value of one of them has been increased via the attachment of the Nauglamir, I think monetary compensation more likely there.

nice! i was thinking that the claim to the silmarils pass to the sons of feanor via intestate succession, each with a one-seventh undivided interest, unless there's such a thing as intestate primogeniture in elfland.

that makes the actual property choses in action (detinue), rather than the chattels themselves.

as to elwe adding value--he's not really a possessor in good faith, aye? he knew that he was receiving stolen goods (twice stolen!) and made no effort to return them.

as i recall it, at the post-treedeath hearing to dispossess feanor of the silmarils, doesn't one of the valar deploy a labory theory of value? i.e., yeahyeahyeah, you made them, but that was only possible because of someone else making the trees? or is that simply eminent domain exercised rationally during a publuc emergency?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Sologdin,

as i recall it, at the post-treedeath hearing to dispossess feanor of the silmarils, doesn't one of the valar deploy a labory theory of value? i.e., yeahyeahyeah, you made them, but that was only possible because of someone else making the trees? or is that simply eminent domain exercised rationally during a publuc emergency?

Prof. Tolkien, closet Marxist.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

i am enamored of this thesis. can't there be a pleasant fanfic wherein maglor survives the ruin of beleriand, hides underground until the third age, becoming a nameless thing that gnaws the root of zirakzigal, present for the olorin v balrog duel, kills B, resurrects O with a jaunty song, then goes to orodruin, fishes the ring out of the magma, and then leads the rebellion during the fourth age in the sequel lord of the rings 2: the revenge of the ring, which sees the destruction of feudal monarchy and the beginning of socilalist democracy?

I suppose Maglor would be more into technocratic fascist futurism. One Mordor, one Volk, one Metropolis. You now all those Noldors were basically dwarves with pointy ears.

[Happy Ent]

OP, please edit the original post. It’s Fëanor, not Feanör. (The latter makes no sense: why put a diaeresis on a single vowel?) The ë is there to inform native English speakers that “e” and “a” are two separate vowels, unlike in, say, speak. You could put the diacritic over the ä instead (Feänor) but not over the ö.

[sologdin]

as if quenya follows your linguistic rules! as mr. shaw said,

HE is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.

[LordBloodraven]

The Second and Third were also wrong since the sons of Feanor no longer had any right to the Silmaril because of the First.

Not giving up the Silmaril was a mistake, but it was not morally wrong in and of itself. However, the murder of the Teleri is unforgivable. They could have done what Galadriel and company did and crossed the ice, but they chose the dark and easy way. If I remember correctly, that's how Sauron wins his duel of songs with Finrod and in general it's made pretty clear that this is the point of no return.

Really? Not even when two of them kidnapped Luthien and subsequently tried to kill her and Beren? Some of them were not nice at all, even without the Silmaril business.

Dior kept it because the Silmarils have the same possession issue as the Ring -- they're good rather than evil, but everyone who sees one wants it and very few can let of one once they have it. But in any case, the Silmarils were didn't belong to the sons of Feanor at that point. In fact, once the remaining two sons finally get their hands on the gems, the latter burn their hands just to make this absolutely clear.

There's no doubt their fate is tragic, but to a considerable extent, they brought it upon themselves.

I think that plotline was too easy.Yes, they committed kinslaying but that certainly won't stop them from getting what they want. They wanted the Silmarils above all and telling them that they forfeited their rights to it was of little help. The Vala re pretty useless actually until the War of Wrath. They watched the world burn while eating popcorn in Aman. If only they could unbind them from that Oath.

Dior, Elwing and the rest had less rights to it than Feanor and his sons. Thingol is greediest of all and could have prevented the Kinslayings actually.

Dior also kept it because his parents were the ones to (heroically) get the thing out of Angband, and because of the past actions of the Feanorians (recall that his granddad Thingol forbade Quenya to be spoken in Doriath for this reason - the Teleri are family). Ditto Elwing: the jewel was rescued by her grandparents, and why should she give that up to the people who had murdered her father and destroyed her home?

I see. But really, everything would have been simpler if he yield them. Thingol is not innocent of all this. On one hand, he has a grudge against the Sons of FFeanor and on the other, try to acquire what they deem to be rightfully theirs. Jewels that made them kill Thingol's kinsmen in the first place

For all we know, Maglor is still wandering the shore. ;)

Well, he's as good as dead by the War of the Ring. He's just a legend. I forgot Celebrimbor, who lived in the Second Age and who was killed by Sauron

The Second and Third were also wrong since the sons of Feanor no longer had any right to the Silmaril because of the First.

an oddity. i would expect title to the chattels at issue to vest irrespective of the alleged moral defects of the claimants thereto.

Maglor is still wandering the shore

i am enamored of this thesis. can't there be a pleasant fanfic wherein maglor survives the ruin of beleriand, hides underground until the third age, becoming a nameless thing that gnaws the root of zirakzigal, present for the olorin v balrog duel, kills B, resurrects O with a jaunty song, then goes to orodruin, fishes the ring out of the magma, and then leads the rebellion during the fourth age in the sequel lord of the rings 2: the revenge of the ring, which sees the destruction of feudal monarchy and the beginning of socilalist democracy?

Here's the text commenting on the right of the House of Feanor concerning the Silmarils after the War of Wrath:

And they sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him. But Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens.

Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Silmarillion (Kindle Locations 4821-4824). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

The Vala had a practical way to disposess Feaor and his sons of the Silmarils. Sorry, you killed your kinsmen so now you have no right to the Silmarils. Kind of easy.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LordBloodraven,

Jewels that made them kill Thingol's kinsmen in the first place

The jewels didn't force them to pick up arms and attack Doraith or the Havens at the mouths of the Sirion. They did that of their own will and should suffer the consequences for their actions.