Howland Reed = High Septon?

[Mia B.]

Varys hates and fears magic THIS IS KNOWN! I personally love and buy into this theory. Varys has professed his hatred for all things magic due to the wizard who threw his "parts" into the brazier and what he saw. So why would someone who hates all things magic be using magic to "glamour" himself. Varys is NOT HS. HR is a way more likely suspect. Especially since noone knows where he is. This is where he could extract his revenge and do the most damage.

Exactly. Besides, does Varys even have the time to also be a high septon? I really dislike the Varys theories but I love this one

[Hippocras]

This seems like trolling. It really does.

The theory makes zero sense, yet random people keep showing up and reviving the thread to say they love this theory that DOESNT WORK AND IS DEFINITELY FALSE.

[SunflashJT]

In no way could it be Howland, he is a follower of the Old Gods.

No way its Varys because the High Sparrow has been gathering followers throughout the War of the 5 Kings and Varys only went missing a week at most before the High Sparrow's arrival in KL.

[Antler's Fury]

I never thought I'd read a theory more full of holes than the GNC, and then I read this one. Seriously, this one really is nuttier than a fruitcake. Here are all of the flaws I could think of off the top of my head.

1) Does Howland Reed not have anything else better to do? Currently, the Boltons are attempting to seize control of the North. They have already taken Winterfell, and as far as Howland knows, have "Arya Stark" in their clutches. If Howland wants to help avenge the Starks, why isn't he joining up with the Northern lords and Stannis to fight the Boltons? Surely, this attempted usurpation of the Starks' seat and position, using "Arya" no less, is the biggest threat to the Starks' legacy? Wouldn't this be more worthy of Howland's attention than playing septon in the South as part of a ridiculously complex conspiracy to seat Jon Snow on the Iron Throne, especially considering that he doesn't even know if Jon wants the Iron Throne, and knows that Ned definitely did not want Jon to have it? We are supposed to believe that he is "avenging" Ned by using the Faith to destabilize the Lannister regime, but why is avenging Robb by fighting against Roose Bolton, the man who killed him, not more important? Also, punishing Cersei would not even be avenging Ned, because Cersei did not want Ned executed; Joffrey ordered that, and Howland cannot punish him because he is dead. And let's not forget, Jon Snow was assassinated while Howland was down south. Oops! Maybe Howland would have been able to prevent that had he actually been in the North, helping Jon, or fighting the Boltons, or doing something of immediate importance rather than dicking around in King's Landing.

2) If Howland Reed wants to punish the Lannisters, destabilize their government, and pave the way for Jon's ascension, he is doing an awful job. He started out in an excellent position. He had two very influential forms of leverage over Cersei: the Faith's blessing, and the Crown's debt to the Faith. Cersei can only solve one of these problems: either she can pay the debt to get the blessing and thus deprive the Crown of money to build a new navy, or she can ignore the debt and build a new navy, but deprive Tommen of the religious legitimacy that the Faith's blessing represents. If Howland wants to weaken Tommen by depriving him of religious legitimacy so that he can eventually bless Jon, all he has to do is refuse to back down, and insist that he won't bless Tommen unless the Crown's debt to the Faith is paid, knowing that Cersei would never do it. However, Howland just hands over both bargaining chips for a reward of dubious value; he agrees to bless Tommen and forgive the Crown's debts to the Faith in exchange for reviving the Faith Militant. Now that Howland has significantly strengthened Tommen by effectively giving him religious legitimacy and a new navy, one would expect that what he got in exchange was even more powerful than what he gave up. We are supposed to believe that Howland will use the FM to dethrone Tommen and crown Jon. However, this is clearly impossible.

First off, we are supposed to believe that Howland was saving his blessing for Jon. But now, Howland has blessed Tommen, not Jon, which means that not only the smallfolk, but the new FM itself will be backing Tommen. So how can Howland demand that the FM suddenly go and attempt to dethrone the very king that he just blessed and who allowed the reformation of the FM in the first place? This is especially important considering that Jon, Howland's supposed new candidate for king is, at best, Rhaegar's bastard, and at worst, the product of Rhaegar's polygamous union. The Faith looks down upon both bastards and polygamy, so one wonders whether the zealous FM would fight Tommen and back Jon merely because the High Septon suddenly demanded it. Far from hurting Tommen, this sudden shift just makes the High Septon look like a flip flopper violating the tenets of the Faith, and would make men as zealously devout as those in the FM question whether the High Septon really is the embodiment of the Seven on earth, or just a fraud. It's also important to note that Howland is a follower of the Old Gods, and the FM has a reputation for fanaticism against all enemies of the Faith. By reviving the FM, Howland has potentially put his actual religion in danger. While he is High Septon, he may be able to prevent them from attacking the "tree worshipers" of the North, but what happens after he is dead? Howland has apparently not considered the the long term consequences of armed religious zealots running around.

One might say that Howland did a good job of destabilizing Tommen's government by imprisoning Cersei. But even this was actually beneficial for Tommen's rule. With Cersei imprisoned, Kevan became regent, and would have repaired the relationship with the Faith and the Tyrells. This is why Varys had to assassinate him, and Howland had nothing to do with that. Even if Cersei loses her trial, thus questioning Tommen's legitimacy and allowing Howland to say he was born of incest, Howland can hardly use this as justification to back Jon, who was also conceived in a manner unacceptable to the Faith. Furthermore, unlike Aemon, who swore his maester's vows by the Seven, and thus could be released from them by the High Septon, Jon swore his vows by the Old Gods, so Howland could not even use his power to release Jon from them. All in all, Howland has done more to strengthen Tommen's government than to hurt it, and that too at the expense of the North and Jon, which suggests that he is comically incompetent.

3) There was no way that Howland could have anticipated that things would develop the way that they did. Assuming he heard about the death of the High Septon and immediately set out from Greywater Watch intending to replace him, there's no way he could guarantee that everything would work out according to plan. He'd need to read enough from the Seven Pointed Star to be able to successfully impersonate a septon, go around the Riverlands naming babies, performing marriages, and doing other religious acts to build up a reputation, then find a bunch of armed, zealous smallfolk willing to follow his lead, and reach King's Landing just before the Most Devout concluded their election process so that he could storm the election chamber and force them to pick him at knifepoint, and that too, while making sure that the Goldcloaks did not stop him, and that the Crown accepted the election as valid. If anything went wrong, like if he was delayed en route and arrived at KL after the election had concluded, or if he was arrested/killed by the Goldcloaks, or if he simply wasn't charismatic enough to build a following, his entire plan would collapse. Why would he abandon his home and Jon and leave the North to the Boltons to engage in such a risky plan with no immediate reward, and then repeatedly botch his attempts to destabilize the Lannister regime after he had worked so hard to become High Septon?

4) All of the other "evidence" presented in favor of this theory is too vague to suggest that the High Sparrow is Howland Reed. For instance, though the High Sparrow did complain about Ned Stark's execution at the Sept of Baelor, this hardly suggests that he cared about Ned; it only meant that he did not want the holy Sept to be desecrated with blood. This was apparently so egregious a sin that even the previous fat, corrupt High Septon complained about it. He also could not have been in possession of the last letter sent by Ned, because that letter was to Stannis, and was retrieved by the Lannisters after they killed the messenger Ned sent to him. Similarly, though the High Sparrow may be short with brown hair and calloused feet like a crannogman, these are not exactly unique features. Most smallfolk in Westeros are probably short, with brown hair and calloused feet. Though Taena Merryweather says that he was born with filth beneath his fingernails, this is simply a reference to his being born poor. Again, most poor smallfolk in Westeros live in dirty environments, so this is also not evidence that he was born in the swampy Neck. The fact that he was washing the floor of the sept, thereby turning it into a "swamp" is hardly evidence either; he was cleaning the floor, meaning that he did not want it to be dirty. Indeed, the High Septon himself seems to be a surprisingly clean person. Cersei does not see any dirt on his feet or fingernails, and reports that his robes are clean, if patched and frayed. The fact that the High Sparrow's name is unknown also does not indicate that he is Howland Reed. All High Septons stop using their given name after their election, so if this is "evidence" then one could also assume that the previous two High Septons could also have been Howland. Heck, the second one even had a weirwood staff.

5) From a narrative standpoint, the High Sparrow makes much more sense if he is exactly who he says he is. He is representative of the common people's fury at the corruption of the religious authorities and the negligence of the secular authorities. Up until now the lords have taken smallfolk meekness for granted, but the High Sparrow rose because the smallfolk's patience finally snapped, making them willing to take matters into their own hands. This adds realistic depth and complexity to the Game of Thrones by showing that the lords' actions have serious consequences, and introduces the Faith as a player of the Game, all of which is undercut if the High Sparrow is not really a puritan but a charlatan. Furthermore, the role that the High Sparrow plays in Cersei's downfall is meant to show us how Cersei opened up a Pandora's Box of trouble when she foolishly re-armed the Faith, and ended up getting entangled in the web of schemes and lies that she wove. This is again undercut if Howland Reed always intended to bring her down.

[WeirwoodWorshiper]

Howland Reed worships the Old Gods, to then become High Septon? I don't think so. The only way I could accept this is it he was planning of bringing down the Seven from within and I don't think this is his style. More Vary's style, but that theory is also riddled with holes. The High Septon is just a raised Sparrow in my opinion.

If Howland Reed is in the South he's on the Isle of Faces, or hiding in Raventree Hall possibly, The Blackwoods will appear again before the series is up.

[Hippocras]

And the HS is an old man with a heavily lined face while Howland Reed is at most 34. So can we just lock this thread? Case closed.

[Lord of Ragweed and Cedar]

I never thought I'd read a theory more full of holes than the GNC, and then I read this one. Seriously, this one really is nuttier than a fruitcake. Here are all of the flaws I could think of off the top of my head.

1) Does Howland Reed not have anything else better to do? Currently, the Boltons are attempting to seize control of the North. They have already taken Winterfell, and as far as Howland knows, have "Arya Stark" in their clutches. If Howland wants to help avenge the Starks, why isn't he joining up with the Northern lords and Stannis to fight the Boltons? Surely, this attempted usurpation of the Starks' seat and position, using "Arya" no less, is the biggest threat to the Starks' legacy? Wouldn't this be more worthy of Howland's attention than playing septon in the South as part of a ridiculously complex conspiracy to seat Jon Snow on the Iron Throne, especially considering that he doesn't even know if Jon wants the Iron Throne, and knows that Ned definitely did not want Jon to have it? We are supposed to believe that he is "avenging" Ned by using the Faith to destabilize the Lannister regime, but why is avenging Robb by fighting against Roose Bolton, the man who killed him, not more important? Also, punishing Cersei would not even be avenging Ned, because Cersei did not want Ned executed; Joffrey ordered that, and Howland cannot punish him because he is dead. And let's not forget, Jon Snow was assassinated while Howland was down south. Oops! Maybe Howland would have been able to prevent that had he actually been in the North, helping Jon, or fighting the Boltons, or doing something of immediate importance rather than dicking around in King's Landing.

2) If Howland Reed wants to punish the Lannisters, destabilize their government, and pave the way for Jon's ascension, he is doing an awful job. He started out in an excellent position. He had two very influential forms of leverage over Cersei: the Faith's blessing, and the Crown's debt to the Faith. Cersei can only solve one of these problems: either she can pay the debt to get the blessing and thus deprive the Crown of money to build a new navy, or she can ignore the debt and build a new navy, but deprive Tommen of the religious legitimacy that the Faith's blessing represents. If Howland wants to weaken Tommen by depriving him of religious legitimacy so that he can eventually bless Jon, all he has to do is refuse to back down, and insist that he won't bless Tommen unless the Crown's debt to the Faith is paid, knowing that Cersei would never do it. However, Howland just hands over both bargaining chips for a reward of dubious value; he agrees to bless Tommen and forgive the Crown's debts to the Faith in exchange for reviving the Faith Militant. Now that Howland has significantly strengthened Tommen by effectively giving him religious legitimacy and a new navy, one would expect that what he got in exchange was even more powerful than what he gave up. We are supposed to believe that Howland will use the FM to dethrone Tommen and crown Jon. However, this is clearly impossible.

First off, we are supposed to believe that Howland was saving his blessing for Jon. But now, Howland has blessed Tommen, not Jon, which means that not only the smallfolk, but the new FM itself will be backing Tommen. So how can Howland demand that the FM suddenly go and attempt to dethrone the very king that he just blessed and who allowed the reformation of the FM in the first place? This is especially important considering that Jon, Howland's supposed new candidate for king is, at best, Rhaegar's bastard, and at worst, the product of Rhaegar's polygamous union. The Faith looks down upon both bastards and polygamy, so one wonders whether the zealous FM would fight Tommen and back Jon merely because the High Septon suddenly demanded it. Far from hurting Tommen, this sudden shift just makes the High Septon look like a flip flopper violating the tenets of the Faith, and would make men as zealously devout as those in the FM question whether the High Septon really is the embodiment of the Seven on earth, or just a fraud. It's also important to note that Howland is a follower of the Old Gods, and the FM has a reputation for fanaticism against all enemies of the Faith. By reviving the FM, Howland has potentially put his actual religion in danger. While he is High Septon, he may be able to prevent them from attacking the "tree worshipers" of the North, but what happens after he is dead? Howland has apparently not considered the the long term consequences of armed religious zealots running around.

One might say that Howland did a good job of destabilizing Tommen's government by imprisoning Cersei. But even this was actually beneficial for Tommen's rule. With Cersei imprisoned, Kevan became regent, and would have repaired the relationship with the Faith and the Tyrells. This is why Varys had to assassinate him, and Howland had nothing to do with that. Even if Cersei loses her trial, thus questioning Tommen's legitimacy and allowing Howland to say he was born of incest, Howland can hardly use this as justification to back Jon, who was also conceived in a manner unacceptable to the Faith. Furthermore, unlike Aemon, who swore his maester's vows by the Seven, and thus could be released from them by the High Septon, Jon swore his vows by the Old Gods, so Howland could not even use his power to release Jon from them. All in all, Howland has done more to strengthen Tommen's government than to hurt it, and that too at the expense of the North and Jon, which suggests that he is comically incompetent.

3) There was no way that Howland could have anticipated that things would develop the way that they did. Assuming he heard about the death of the High Septon and immediately set out from Greywater Watch intending to replace him, there's no way he could guarantee that everything would work out according to plan. He'd need to read enough from the Seven Pointed Star to be able to successfully impersonate a septon, go around the Riverlands naming babies, performing marriages, and doing other religious acts to build up a reputation, then find a bunch of armed, zealous smallfolk willing to follow his lead, and reach King's Landing just before the Most Devout concluded their election process so that he could storm the election chamber and force them to pick him at knifepoint, and that too, while making sure that the Goldcloaks did not stop him, and that the Crown accepted the election as valid. If anything went wrong, like if he was delayed en route and arrived at KL after the election had concluded, or if he was arrested/killed by the Goldcloaks, or if he simply wasn't charismatic enough to build a following, his entire plan would collapse. Why would he abandon his home and Jon and leave the North to the Boltons to engage in such a risky plan with no immediate reward, and then repeatedly botch his attempts to destabilize the Lannister regime after he had worked so hard to become High Septon?

4) All of the other "evidence" presented in favor of this theory is too vague to suggest that the High Sparrow is Howland Reed. For instance, though the High Sparrow did complain about Ned Stark's execution at the Sept of Baelor, this hardly suggests that he cared about Ned; it only meant that he did not want the holy Sept to be desecrated with blood. This was apparently so egregious a sin that even the previous fat, corrupt High Septon complained about it. He also could not have been in possession of the last letter sent by Ned, because that letter was to Stannis, and was retrieved by the Lannisters after they killed the messenger Ned sent to him. Similarly, though the High Sparrow may be short with brown hair and calloused feet like a crannogman, these are not exactly unique features. Most smallfolk in Westeros are probably short, with brown hair and calloused feet. Though Taena Merryweather says that he was born with filth beneath his fingernails, this is simply a reference to his being born poor. Again, most poor smallfolk in Westeros live in dirty environments, so this is also not evidence that he was born in the swampy Neck. The fact that he was washing the floor of the sept, thereby turning it into a "swamp" is hardly evidence either; he was cleaning the floor, meaning that he did not want it to be dirty. Indeed, the High Septon himself seems to be a surprisingly clean person. Cersei does not see any dirt on his feet or fingernails, and reports that his robes are clean, if patched and frayed. The fact that the High Sparrow's name is unknown also does not indicate that he is Howland Reed. All High Septons stop using their given name after their election, so if this is "evidence" then one could also assume that the previous two High Septons could also have been Howland. Heck, the second one even had a weirwood staff.

5) From a narrative standpoint, the High Sparrow makes much more sense if he is exactly who he says he is. He is representative of the common people's fury at the corruption of the religious authorities and the negligence of the secular authorities. Up until now the lords have taken smallfolk meekness for granted, but the High Sparrow rose because the smallfolk's patience finally snapped, making them willing to take matters into their own hands. This adds realistic depth and complexity to the Game of Thrones by showing that the lords' actions have serious consequences, and introduces the Faith as a player of the Game, all of which is undercut if the High Sparrow is not really a puritan but a charlatan. Furthermore, the role that the High Sparrow plays in Cersei's downfall is meant to show us how Cersei opened up a Pandora's Box of trouble when she foolishly re-armed the Faith, and ended up getting entangled in the web of schemes and lies that she wove. This is again undercut if Howland Reed always intended to bring her down.

Man, you're really bumming me out...

[Janicia]

One piece of circumstantial evidence for the theory that I didn't see mentioned in this thread was that Brienne did meet the High Septon on the road before he was elevated, and he was coming from the north. The counter argument could be that somebody who worships the Seven as a religious minority in the North probably has a very different, more fundamentalist mindset than somebody from the south where it is the dominant religion.

I never thought I'd read a theory more full of holes than the GNC, and then I read this one. Seriously, this one really is nuttier than a fruitcake. Here are all of the flaws I could think of off the top of my head.

1) Does Howland Reed not have anything else better to do?

2) If Howland Reed wants to punish the Lannisters, destabilize their government, and pave the way for Jon's ascension, he is doing an awful job.

3) There was no way that Howland could have anticipated that things would develop the way that they did.

You've persuaded me that the High Septon's goal isn't putting Jon Snow on the Iron Throne. You've also made good points that if the High Septon is part of the Varys conspiracy to put Aegon on the throne, he's doing it wrong. Whoever he is, the High Septon is spearheading a popular movement that will be problematic for any king in Kings Landing. Varys is fine with the populist uprising now while it distracts attention from Aegon's invasion, but I think it will become a threat to Aegon if he does capture Kings Landing because the people in Kings Landing have lost respect for the nobility.

The High Septon still could be Howland Reed. The Northerners have been trying to secede from the Kingdom since book 1. Robb sent his will to Howland to make Jon the King in the North, not King over all of Westeros. Even if Howland Reed knows Jon to be a Targaryan heir, he probably agrees with the rest of the Northerners that they would be better off without the Iron Throne. His goal is to make Kings Landing ungovernable and divide the country by raising up the commonfolk against nobility and throwing the south into chaos so that the North can secede.

I agree that Howland Reed couldn't have known that he would be elevated to High Septon. But he doesn't have to be High Septon to be really disruptive to the Iron Throne by traveling the countryside riling people up, setting up militant refugee camps, putting pressure on the church leadership, ect.

People adopt convincing disguises throughout ASOIAF. I find it plausible that a 30 year old crannogman could disguise himself as somebody older. The crannogmen are mysterious and are probably capable of such trickery. People also tend to be bad at guessing the age of somebody with an unfamiliar ethnicity and grey hair is easy to fake / some people grey early.

As for your point that Howland has better things to do than screw around with Kings Landing politics - maybe he does, but he hasn't been doing them. If the crannogmen were helping at the Wall, they should have showed up when the Wall was threatened, but they didn't. A crannogmen force lurking near the Wall could have destroyed Ygritte's wildling force, but they didn't. They also clearly haven't been defending Jon very well, so presumably that hasn't been their goal. And they haven't made a move on Bolton yet, though he had to travel through their territory to get home. I think people like this theory because it has Howland actually out in the world doing something.

Maybe the crannogmen will play an important role in the battle of Winterfell. Definitely possible. But maybe at the meeting that kicked off the Great Northern Conspiracy, the other houses announced that they could deal with the Boltons if Howland Reed could keep southeners from interfering. And the best way to do that is to throw the south into chaos, raise a people's rebellion against the monarchy, pit church against state, and crush the Iron Throne.

[Hippocras]

No, the HS could NOT be Howland Reed. At least a quarter century age difference.

[Antler's Fury]

One piece of circumstantial evidence for the theory that I didn't see mentioned in this thread was that Brienne did meet the High Septon on the road before he was elevated, and he was coming from the north. The counter argument could be that somebody who worships the Seven as a religious minority in the North probably has a very different, more fundamentalist mindset than somebody from the south where it is the dominant religion.

Do you have an exact quote? I don't think it says that they came from the North; it could just mean north of where Brienne was, which would include most of the Riverlands. The High Sparrow explained to Cersei that he went around the countryside performing marriages, naming babies, etc so he could just have been on the southward portion of his circuit before he joined the other sparrows.

The High Septon still could be Howland Reed. The Northerners have been trying to secede from the Kingdom since book 1. Robb sent his will to Howland to make Jon the King in the North, not King over all of Westeros. Even if Howland Reed knows Jon to be a Targaryan heir, he probably agrees with the rest of the Northerners that they would be better off without the Iron Throne. His goal is to make Kings Landing ungovernable and divide the country by raising up the commonfolk against nobility and throwing the south into chaos so that the North can secede.

Secede under which King? Jon? Wait, he just got assassinated. Oops! Like I said, Howland might have been able to prevent that had he actually been in the North rather than dicking around in the South. Even if Howland wants an independent North, it makes much more sense for him to fight the Boltons or Stannis, who are actually in the North attempting to bring it back under the Iron Throne, than playing septon in KL. Furthermore, dividing Westerosi society by leading the smallfolk against the nobility is not something that a member of the nobility like Howland would want to encourage.

I agree that Howland Reed couldn't have known that he would be elevated to High Septon. But he doesn't have to be High Septon to be really disruptive to the Iron Throne by traveling the countryside riling people up, setting up militant refugee camps, putting pressure on the church leadership, ect.

That doesn't explain why, as High Septon, he's actually strengthened the Iron Throne by forgiving its debts, blessing Tommen, and removing Cersei from power to allow Kevan to take the regency. Furthermore, the people who the High Sparrow riled up in the countryside wanted a strong Iron Throne that could protect them from the horrors of war. They went to KL seeking the protection of the King. If Howland Reed wanted to destabilize the Iron Throne, he'd tell his followers to overthrow the monarchy, not seek its protection.

As for your point that Howland has better things to do than screw around with Kings Landing politics - maybe he does, but he hasn't been doing them. If the crannogmen were helping at the Wall, they should have showed up when the Wall was threatened, but they didn't. A crannogmen force lurking near the Wall could have destroyed Ygritte's wildling force, but they didn't. They also clearly haven't been defending Jon very well, so presumably that hasn't been their goal. And they haven't made a move on Bolton yet, though he had to travel through their territory to get home. I think people like this theory because it has Howland actually out in the world doing something.

The fact that he did not intervene in these events, which were much more important to the welfare of the North than anything the High Sparrow has done, suggests that Howland Reed would not suddenly attempt to intervene in Northern affairs via some hare-brained, roundabout scheme in the South.

Maybe the crannogmen will play an important role in the battle of Winterfell. Definitely possible. But maybe at the meeting that kicked off the Great Northern Conspiracy, the other houses announced that they could deal with the Boltons if Howland Reed could keep southeners from interfering. And the best way to do that is to throw the south into chaos, raise a people's rebellion against the monarchy, pit church against state, and crush the Iron Throne.

The High Sparrow has done the exact opposite. He allied the Church with the State by forgiving the Crown's debts, blessing Tommen, and intending to use the Faith Militant against Tommen's enemies, like Stannis. His followers clearly want a stable and devout government under the Iron Throne, not instability.

[Mdoggy]

I Love this theory because it is so .... WOW but yet extremely plausible.

IMO this seems a twist that GRRM would through in there. The foreshadowing is there, the pieces all line up even though its unlikely, it makes a whole lot of sense.

Howland probably did not head into battle with Robb because HR is not good at that type of combat. It would be stupid because the cranogmen are said to be horrible at that kind of warfare. It would also make them the best candidates to infiltrate KL.

I also find this series plausible because it gives an excellent way for the Starks to make a come back. Even with two books left, the North does not have enough men to lead the North into any sort of battle in the south. Plus it is winter and it would be hard to get a northern army south through a snowy riverlands... but if an army was somehow already in the south... then it would be easier for a Stark revival.

[Janicia]

The fact that he did not intervene in these events, which were much more important to the welfare of the North than anything the High Sparrow has done, suggests that Howland Reed would not suddenly attempt to intervene in Northern affairs via some hare-brained, roundabout scheme in the South.

The High Sparrow has done the exact opposite. He allied the Church with the State by forgiving the Crown's debts, blessing Tommen, and intending to use the Faith Militant against Tommen's enemies, like Stannis. His followers clearly want a stable and devout government under the Iron Throne, not instability.

Important things have been going on in the north that are really bad, and the crannogmen haven't even tried to doing anything about it. Why? A possible explanation is that they've been busy doing something else. What's your explanation for the crannogmen's passivity while disaster strikes?

The High Septon traded two tokens of political legitimacy to Cersei in exchange for arming his masses. The act of forcing the monarchy to bargain with the church for the blessing may be a more important precedent in terms of damaging the monarchy than the specifics of this particular bargain. And the then the High Septon shredded Cersei's political legitimacy, and Tommen's by extension, by parading her through the streets naked. People take you less seriously after they've thrown rotten fruit at your naked mother, and punishing Cersei so publicly for sleeping around bolsters the notion that Tommen is a bastard. The High Septon showed the people that the mighty can be humbled. Whoever the High Septon is, he has been hugely damaging to Tommen's reign and has changed the dynamic between the people and their king.

We don't know what the High Septon will do with his army. Whatever he does, it will probably prolong the civil war and reduce the power of the monarchy.

The High Septon's actions are helpful to the North's goal of seceding. He could just be who he says he is, and his rise was natural in a country splitting at the seams. Or he could possibly be Howland Reed, which would explain why Howland Reed hasn't been dealing with any of the important problems in the north.

[Janicia]

No, the HS could NOT be Howland Reed. At least a quarter century age difference.

You keep saying that. In a series with so many characters wearing convincing disguises, it isn't convincing to me, particularly since people have trouble guessing the age of unfamiliar ethnic groups correctly. GRRM stretches plausibility on a number of character's ability to disguise themselves.

[Hippocras]

You keep saying that. In a series with so many characters wearing convincing disguises, it isn't convincing to me, particularly since people have trouble guessing the age of unfamiliar ethnic groups correctly. GRRM stretches plausibility on a number of character's ability to disguise themselves.

Howland Reed is at most 34.

The HS is grey and stooped with a heavily lined face.

This is not about pretending anything. The descriptions do not match in ANY way.

[Antler's Fury]

Important things have been going on in the north that are really bad, and the crannogmen haven't even tried to doing anything about it. Why? A possible explanation is that they've been busy doing something else.

Why? Dicking around in the South does absolutely nothing to stop Roose or Stannis from taking the North. Even if Howland does succeed in his supposed goal of destabilizing the South, that means nothing so long as Roose or Stannis controls the North.

What's your explanation for the crannogmen's passivity while disaster strikes?

They cannot project their influence very far out of the Neck, because they need the swampy terrain to give them an advantage. The Neck is where they are strongest, so they do the best that they can from there to harass the Ironborn and potentially the Boltons as well. Roose himself has to use a decoy when passing through the Neck.

The High Septon traded two tokens of political legitimacy to Cersei in exchange for arming his masses. The act of forcing the monarchy to bargain with the church for the blessing may be a more important precedent in terms of damaging the monarchy than the specifics of this particular bargain.

The High Septon traded down and strengthened the monarchy. The mere act of bargaining with someone does not weaken them if you give up more than you gain, which is exactly what the High Sparrow did.

And the then the High Septon shredded Cersei's political legitimacy, and Tommen's by extension, by parading her through the streets naked. People take you less seriously after they've thrown rotten fruit at your naked mother, and punishing Cersei so publicly for sleeping around bolsters the notion that Tommen is a bastard.

Cersei was specifically punished for fornication after Robert's death, which hurts her but does not necessarily damage Tommen's legitimacy. Even that only happened when Cersei sent Osney Kettleblack to confess, something that Howland could not have planned or anticipated. It suggests that Howland is a terrible long term planner who was incredibly lucky to have been elevated to High Septon and given a golden opportunity to humiliate Cersei, without doing very much to ensure that these events progressed as he wanted them to. In addition, Howland apparently did not anticipate that the more competent Kevan would take over as regent, strengthening Tommen's administration. All in all, "Howland" has squandered more opportunities to hurt the monarchy than he has exploited, which suggests that the High Sparrow is not Howland Reed, and has no intention of destabilizing the monarchy.

The High Septon showed the people that the mighty can be humbled. Whoever the High Septon is, he has been hugely damaging to Tommen's reign and has changed the dynamic between the people and their king.

He may well have shifted power from the monarchy and towards the Faith, but that only means he wants a King subordinate to the diktats of the Faith, not an end to the monarchy.

We don't know what the High Septon will do with his army. Whatever he does, it will probably prolong the civil war and reduce the power of the monarchy.

He has made it clear that his intentions are to fight against the enemies of the Faith, which would include the secessionist Ironborn who worship the Drowned God, the secessionist Northmen who worship the Old Gods, and Stannis, who follows the Red God, all of whom just so happen to also be Tommen's enemies. Again, "Howland Reed" is strengthening the monarchy by doing this, which suggests that he's not Howland Reed.

[Janicia]

Howland Reed is at most 34.

The HS is grey and stooped with a heavily lined face.

This is not about pretending anything. The descriptions do not match in ANY way.

The descriptions, to the extent they exist at all, do match regarding stature. Hair can be dyed. I had a friend who started greying at 20. Somebody living a somewhat rough, outdoorsy life, who screws around with poison and possibly magic, could have a heavily lined face. This isn't as insurmountable as you want it to be.

[Hippocras]

As I want it to be? Generally in fiction you do not jump to the exception rather than the rule without a specific reason. Heavily lines face was MEANT to tell us this is an old man.

[Janicia]

The High Sparrow is representative of the common people's fury at the corruption of the religious authorities and the negligence of the secular authorities. Up until now the lords have taken smallfolk meekness for granted, but the High Sparrow rose because the smallfolk's patience finally snapped, making them willing to take matters into their own hands. This adds realistic depth and complexity to the Game of Thrones by showing that the lords' actions have serious consequences, and introduces the Faith as a player of the Game, all of which is undercut if the High Sparrow is not really a puritan but a charlatan. Furthermore, the role that the High Sparrow plays in Cersei's downfall is meant to show us how Cersei opened up a Pandora's Box of trouble when she foolishly re-armed the Faith, and ended up getting entangled in the web of schemes and lies that she wove.

When we're not arguing about whether the High Sparrow is Howland Reed, I think we agree that he is terrible for Tommen's reign. In the short term, some of his moves seem to bolster Tommen, but in the longer term, he has given himself a veto over blessing kings, has destroyed Cersei's credibility, has told the world that the king's mother is a slut, and has given the church an army. I agree that long-term shifts in power dynamics aren't immediately helpful to the North, particularly since Howland Reed isn't going to stay on as High Septon for years to keep things on track. But he could be planning to stir things up and then pass power over to somebody that will continue to weaken the monarchy.

I'm fine with the story if this all happened because the commonfolk rose up and made the nobility pay consequences. That's a good story, probably better than Howland Reed coming out of nowhere to be a charismatic rabble-rouser. I just don't agree that Howland Reed COULDN'T plausibly be the High Sparrow, given what we've seen in the story.

And I'm not fine if Howland has been sitting on his thumbs the whole time. "We're not great at fighting in the open" ceases to be an excuse at some point. When faced with cataclysm, you try to do something about it, even if the circumstances don't suit your strengths. If Howland is south of the Neck, trying to destroy one of the most serious threats to the Northern kingdom (the Iron Throne), he has a reason to be useless as other problems he couldn't have predicted come up.

Do you hate this theory because you feel like there are way too many "this person is somebody else in disguise theories"? I get that. I don't like Aegon for that reason, I don't like the Jaqen/Sirio theory, and I don't love fArya. I'm not sure why I think this one is cool. Probably because I want Howland to be trying to do something.

[WexPyke]

this theory ia also plausible because the starks likely win in the end and this is another arrow in their battle quiver

[WeirwoodWorshiper]

Howland Reed is at most 34.

The HS is grey and stooped with a heavily lined face.

This is not about pretending anything. The descriptions do not match in ANY way.

Altho I dont think the High Septon is Howland Reed, I don't think because the High Septon has a heavily lined face makes him a particular age. Look at Gordon Ramsey 10 years ago when he was 35, his face was very heavily lined. Plus Howland would have had a harsher life in the crannogs. I agree with you it's massively unlikely the HS is Howland, but I think the age thing is irrelevant.

If we just look at the nature of the crannogmen, or what we've have described of their nature, Howland Reed = High Septon doesn't fit. They are shy, they rarley leave the neck and they worship the old gods... If Howland Reed is the High Septon he's gone and left the neck, surrounded himself with people and is supporting the faith of the Seven, three moves that go against the habits of the crannogmen. This for me is the most telling evidence he's not the High Septon.

Whoever the High Septon is, he is messing with the power of the Monarchy. The Monarchy doesn't make deals with the faith, the faith serves the Monarchy. The fact the Faith now has it's Millitant shows an increase in their power and influence. Its not for the benefit of the North tho, rather the Weirwoodless South. Why would Howland Reed be in the South to increrase the power of the Seven, this could be detrimental to the North and their Old Gods.

I think the Neck could be a key place in holding off the White Walkers, and that Howland will deal in Northern affairs. Not Crown affairs. He may have a role in restoring a Stark as Lord of Winterfell or King in the North. Winter is coming, Howland is not gonna be messing around in the South.