Howland Reed = High Septon?

[Antler's Fury]

When we're not arguing about whether the High Sparrow is Howland Reed, I think we agree that he is terrible for Tommen's reign. In the short term, some of his moves seem to bolster Tommen, but in the longer term, he has given himself a veto over blessing kings, has destroyed Cersei's credibility, has told the world that the king's mother is a slut, and has given the church an army. I agree that long-term shifts in power dynamics aren't immediately helpful to the North, particularly since Howland Reed isn't going to stay on as High Septon for years to keep things on track. But he could be planning to stir things up and then pass power over to somebody that will continue to weaken the monarchy.

Why would Howland do something that is not immediately helpful to the North when he could do something that is immediately helpful to the North?

I'm fine with the story if this all happened because the commonfolk rose up and made the nobility pay consequences. That's a good story, probably better than Howland Reed coming out of nowhere to be a charismatic rabble-rouser. I just don't agree that Howland Reed COULDN'T plausibly be the High Sparrow, given what we've seen in the story.

Howland Reed himself is a member of the nobility, and so are the Starks he is supposedly trying to help. Even though the smallfolk are rising up in the South and not the North, it still would not be a good thing for Howland to encourage. What's stopping Northern smallfolk from rising up against their lords as well, especially seeing as they have also suffered due to the negligence and mistakes of their lords?

And I'm not fine if Howland has been sitting on his thumbs the whole time. "We're not great at fighting in the open" ceases to be an excuse at some point. When faced with cataclysm, you try to do something about it, even if the circumstances don't suit your strengths.

There's no evidence that he has been doing anything outside of the Neck, as difficult as that may be to admit. All this means is that a lot of readers have an exaggerated sense of Howland's capabilities.

Do you hate this theory because you feel like there are way too many "this person is somebody else in disguise theories"?

Partly. Also because it involves characters stupidly resorting to ridiculously outlandish, roundabout conspiracies to accomplish something they could have done far more simply, but did not. Readers who like these characters are unable to accept their failures and thus create absurd conspiracy theories to make it seem like these characters actually do have the upper hand. The GNC, the theory that Rickon and Osha made a pit stop in White Harbor, and this theory about Howland Reed fall into this category, and are sustained more by wishful thinking than hard evidence.

[TheHouseHB]

That would be awesome if the High Septon was Howland Reed, but I think the High Septon is Varys. When the High Septon says he is waiting for the "Time to be ripe" I think he means Aegon.

[Antler's Fury]

That would be awesome if the High Septon was Howland Reed, but I think the High Septon is Varys. When the High Septon says he is waiting for the "Time to be ripe" I think he means Aegon.

Then why does he bless Tommen? Plus, when Varys killed Kevan, he specifically said that he was afraid Kevan would bind the Faith to Tommen, which makes no sense if he is in fact the High Sparrow or controlling the High Sparrow.

[Janicia]

are sustained more by wishful thinking than hard evidence.

It is a fantasy story. There is no hard evidence until GRRM conjures it up. There is ample wishful thinking.

[Roadside Rose]

Then why does he bless Tommen? Plus, when Varys killed Kevan, he specifically said that he was afraid Kevan would bind the Faith to Tommen, which makes no sense if he is in fact the High Sparrow or controlling the High Sparrow.

The High Sparrow has not blessed Tommen.

[Antler's Fury]

The High Sparrow has not blessed Tommen.

The deal he made with Cersei was contingent upon his blessing Tommen, and he promised to do it. It's doubtful that Cersei would have let him revive the FM had he not blessed Tommen. He may have done it off screen, or may not have done it yet, but at any rate, it doesn't suggest that he is saving his blessing for Aegon, Jon, or anyone else.

[Laniki]

The deal he made with Cersei was contingent upon his blessing Tommen, and he promised to do it. It's doubtful that Cersei would have let him revive the FM had he not blessed Tommen. He may have done it off screen, or may not have done it yet, but at any rate, it doesn't suggest that he is saving his blessing for Aegon, Jon, or anyone else.

I thought the deal was contingent on forgiving the large debt that the crown had incurred.

Also, in re-reading the chapter where Cersei first encounters the High Sparrow, she describe him of having a short cropped beard that is gray and brown. It says nothing about hair color, only that it was tied up in a hard knot. When Brienne describes the Sparrow she meets near Rosby, she describes him as having a beard of gray and brown and hair was tied back and knotted. . Many men show gray in their beards while in their late twenties, not to mention in their thirties. It's interesting that Cersei whose likely in her mid thirties doesn't identify the HS as being an old man.

The situation in the neck got out of hand after the RW. With the Frey / Bolton alliance and hostages from among the Northern Lords, it would have been necessary to devise a plan that would give him access to the ruling nobility with power and enforcement capability in order to avenge his liege and what has happened because of the war. If he and his men posed as sparrows, he could attract many thousands more on their way from the Neck to Kings Landing. It's possible that Reed hasn't been outside the Neck since he came back from the war, so his identity wouldn't likely be known. But it's the way he speaks to Cersei that gets my attention to this possibility. He speaks to her on equal terms. When talking to her he is direct, commanding and leads the conversation to his own ends. In general, compared to all those lords we've met, this guy is heads and shoulders more representative of being a lord and is closer to Tywin in strategy and demeanor.

[Antler's Fury]

I thought the deal was contingent on forgiving the large debt that the crown had incurred.

Here's what the High Sparrow promised:

"As you wish. This debt shall be forgiven, and King Tommen will have his blessing. The Warrior’s Sons shall escort me to him, shining in the glory of their Faith, whilst my sparrows go forth to defend the meek and humble of the land, reborn as Poor Fellows as of old."

The situation in the neck got out of hand after the RW. With the Frey / Bolton alliance and hostages from among the Northern Lords, it would have been necessary to devise a plan that would give him access to the ruling nobility with power and enforcement capability in order to avenge his liege and what has happened because of the war.

How is this somehow more important than stopping the Boltons and Freys from taking over the North? I mean, Cersei didn't even kill Ned, and tried to stop his execution, while Roose personally killed Robb and is trying to steal his seat. I'd think that Roose would be the first target of someone trying to avenge the Starks.

If he and his men posed as sparrows, he could attract many thousands more on their way from the Neck to Kings Landing.

He and his sparrows went to King's Landing to seek Tommen's protection, not overthrow his government.

[Janicia]

Here's what the High Sparrow promised:

"As you wish. This debt shall be forgiven, and King Tommen will have his blessing. The Warrior’s Sons shall escort me to him, shining in the glory of their Faith, whilst my sparrows go forth to defend the meek and humble of the land, reborn as Poor Fellows as of old."

How is this somehow more important than stopping the Boltons and Freys from taking over the North? I mean, Cersei didn't even kill Ned, and tried to stop his execution, while Roose personally killed Robb and is trying to steal his seat. I'd think that Roose would be the first target of someone trying to avenge the Starks.

He and his sparrows went to King's Landing to seek Tommen's protection, not overthrow his government.

Manderly's coalition is stopping the Boltons and Freys from taking over the North and avenging the Starks.

The sparrows said they went to Kings Landing for Tommen's protection. Cersei doesn't pay attention to everything and she's somewhat unreliable. We don't know much about the activities of the sparrows at all.

The septon's promises to Cersei "I'll bless Tommen eventually" might not mean much.

[TheHouseHB]

Varys being the High Septon or in cahoots with the High Septon would be a good way to get the faith militant on Aegon's cause am I right?

[Antler's Fury]

Manderly's coalition is stopping the Boltons and Freys from taking over the North and avenging the Starks.

What coalition? At the moment, the only coalition I see is between him and Robett Glover, and neither of them are actually openly opposing the Boltons or the Freys. It was actually Sybelle Glover who sided with Stannis against the Boltons. Regardless, it's clear that the anti-Bolton faction of the North needs all the help it can get, so it makes no sense for Howland to abandon them for the South, which is not immediately threatening the North.

Cersei doesn't pay attention to everything and she's somewhat unreliable. We don't know much about the activities of the sparrows at all.

We know that they are people whose lives have been ruined by the war, who came to King's Landing to seek Tommen's protection. They talked about this in a Brienne chapter, so Cersei's unreliability does not matter here. I don't see why we should not take them at their word.

The septon's promises to Cersei "I'll bless Tommen eventually" might not mean much.

Why make the promise at all? He could just refuse and demand that the Crown's debt be repaid, which Cersei will never do.

Varys being the High Septon or in cahoots with the High Septon would be a good way to get the faith militant on Aegon's cause am I right?

Varys himself admitted that he was afraid Kevan might bind the Faith to Tommen, which would not make sense if he was the High Sparrow or had the High Sparrow in his pocket. Varys is influential but he is not omnipotent.

[TheHouseHB]

Howland has been a pretty busy guy then being in charge of the Grand Northern Conspiracy and becoming High Septon at the same time. For a guy that has never appeared in the series this dude sure does a lot behind the scenes.

[Carlos Arellano Sepulveda]

Would be cool if true. However, the Reed's keeping the old good's and the isolation of Grey Water Watch makes it seem to unlikely.

How would Howland Reed, a guy who spent his life worshiping the old gods, be adept enough at preaching about The Seven to get that much support?

The new HS claims that: "Before coming to King’s Landing, I tended to half a hundred little villages too small to have a septon of their own. I walked from each one to the next, performing marriages, absolving sinners of their sins, naming newborn children." If HR=HS then reading the Seven Pointed Star and tending village flocks was how HR educated himself in the faith of the seven gods.

OR Howland Rreed could be in league with Wayman Manderly. Which is a follower if the faith of the seven.
1.- Manderly declaring "The mummer's farce is almost done" 2.- Wyman Manderly: His titles include Lord of White Harbor, Warden of the White Knife, SHIELD OF THE FAITH (of the seven, Wayman is one of the few Nothern lords who follows the seven), DEFENDER OF THE DISPOSSESED, Lord Marshal of the Mander, and Knight of the Order of the Green Hand. 3.- we know Manderly is a very skilled plotter. 4.- HR and WM are as Stark loyalists as it can get.

If Manderly is the Shield of the faith (and defender of the dispossesed), it's safe to assume he is a pious man with deep knowledge of the politics of the faith of the seven... If WM is in league with HR, that can explain how HR aquired such deep knowledge of the faith of the seven and its internal politcs. We can assume HR recieves Ned's and/or Robb's letters and/or knew about Cercei's incest when she confessed to ned in a godswood -in front of a weirwood-.. then he goes with WM to get a good glimpse of the politics of the curch and get trained on the faith of the seven. Either HR had the idea himself, or WM gave him the idea to infiltrate (and clean) the (corrupt) church (while helping refugees). They could also have just plotted it together and/or see their plots converged.

As a bonus, Manderly, by Supporting HR on his quest south (where he helps refugees and recruits people), acts on his "Defender of the Dispossesed" title, and gets revenge on the Lannisters via HR (as he is already getting revenge against the Freys and the Boltons)

[Carlos Arellano Sepulveda]

And the HS is an old man with a heavily lined face while Howland Reed is at most 34. So can we just lock this thread? Case closed.

The Tourney at Harrenhall was in 281... (20+years before the current events) .. Howland reed was older than 15 and "grown to manhood"... he could be very well be 40+ for all we know.

and the HS is NOT an old Man, his beard is "Brown and white"

[Hippocras]

The Tourney at Harrenhall was in 281... (20+years before the current events) .. Howland reed was older than 15 and "grown to manhood"... he could be very well be 40+ for all we know.

and the HS is NOT an old Man, his beard is "Brown and white"

No, he was younger than Ned at the tournament, closer in age to Lyanna, and Ned was 35 at the beginning of the books. Howland is closest to where Lyanna would be in age. 34ish.

Honestly, in literature you pretty much never actually state someone's age. Instead you use description to give a sense of it. Description of a heavily lined face is one of the few tools you have to communicate that someone is old.

You would simply never write that someone had a heavily lined face and was grey and stooped at 34ish without simultaneously giving a description of the very extreme conditions of that person's life that led them to look ancient at 34, and without specifically communicating the character was younger than they appeared.

So the denial on this thread is frankly ridiculous. The High Sparrow is an old man. Howland Reed is not, and furthermore is a Lord. He may be Lord of the Neck, with odd people and habits, but he has not lived a life of extreme hardship.

[forestchilde]

No, he was younger than Ned at the tournament, closer in age to Lyanna, and Ned was 35 at the beginning of the books. Howland is closest to where Lyanna would be in age. 34ish.

Honestly, in literature you pretty much never actually state someone's age. Instead you use description to give a sense of it. Description of a heavily lined face is one of the few tools you have to communicate that someone is old.

You would simply never write that someone had a heavily lined face and was grey and stooped at 34ish without simultaneously giving a description of the very extreme conditions of that person's life that led them to look ancient at 34, and without specifically communicating the character was younger than they appeared.

So the denial on this thread is frankly ridiculous. The High Sparrow is an old man. Howland Reed is not, and furthermore is a Lord. He may be Lord of the Neck, with odd people and habits, but he has not lived a life of extreme hardship.

There is no indication that he is younger than Ned at the tourney. He is "grown to manhood", and Ned is 18.

I can find no description of a "heavily lined face", there is one description (out of several) that says "lined". A "lean, sharp face" and a sharply pointed face with deep set brown eyes are both used with no reference to "heavily lined". There is no reference to him being "stooped", and his hair is described as gray once in passing, while his beard is described as being brown and gray twice, so "ancient" is a stretch.

If we're assuming (for the sake of argument) that he is HR, I can think of reasons he might be worried enough to acquire some gray hair and facial lines by middle age.

Of course, a modest disguise would seem to be a prudent consideration as well, if one is infilitrating the heart of Cersei's power base.

[forestchilde]

I try to approach all theories I read here with an open mind, but the questions of how and why some event(s) or imposture is claimed to have occurred are rarely answered satisfactorily, with evidence from the books to answer them.

This theory answers both questions, with evidence. I congratulate the original poster, Roadside Rose, and those who have found additional evidence.

[Hippocras]

I would rank this theory alongside Arthur Dayne being alive as theories people cling to just because they want to believe it in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

We all want to meet Howland Reed and we are all intrigued by the High Sparrow. But the profiles do not match in ANY way. There is absolutely nothing to commend the theory beyond the fact that we are all anxious to know more about both of these characters so putting them together relieves boredom and makes us think we know something more than we do.

[Mithras]

The Most Devout must have been mad as well, to elevate this creature [High Sparrow] . . . mad, or terrified of the beggars at their doors. Qyburn’s whisperers claimed that Septon Luceon had been nine votes from elevation when those doors had given way, and the sparrows came pouring into the Great Sept with their leader on their shoulders and their axes in their hands.

When last the salt kings and the rock kings met in kingsmoot, Urron of Orkmont let his axemen loose among them, and Nagga’s ribs turned red with gore. House Greyiron ruled unchosen for a thousand years from that dark day, until the Andals came.

Both coups are the same.

High Sparrow seems far more educated than a normal septon, and not only in the Faith but in politics as well.

The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots.

The man’s beard was grey and brown and closely trimmed, his hair tied up in a hard knot behind his head. Though his robes were clean, they were frayed and patched as well. He had rolled his sleeves up to his elbows as he scrubbed, but below the knees the cloth was soaked and sodden. His face was sharply pointed, with deep-set eyes as brown as mud. His feet are bare, she saw with dismay. They were hideous as well, hard and horny things, thick with callus.

Compare him to Haldon.

His companion was older, clean-shaved, with a lined ascetic face. His hair had been pulled back and tied in a knot behind his head.

They look like brothers, don’t they?

Crackpot time;

I think Haldon was the master at Dun Fort during the Defiance of Duskendale and High Sparrow is his brother. They studied in the Citadel together. When the defiance ended, Haldon was spared and sent to exile. He found his way among the GC. High Sparrow decided to join the Faith and served as a wandering septon. Both of them were approached by Team fAegon and became agents of Varys.

[punkypickett]

I haven't read the books in a long time, so forgive me if this is way off base. But here are my thoughts anyway:

1) Howland traveled in the south more than any other crannogman (and is described as being a bit weird for his people for wanting to travel). He at least traveled south for the whole Knight of the Laughing Tree adventures & then when he was out warring with Ned. Surely during all of this time he had plenty of opportunities to learn about the Seven. I'd guess that there were plenty of septons to talk to on his journeys & probably more than a couple who tried to convert him.

2) If we're using Jojen/Meera as ways to determine what Howland looks like, we need to take into consideration how Jojen comes across as older than he actually is. A lot of this may be based on just his seriousness & maturity for his age, but this could take a physical toll as well as an emotional one on greenseers. Perhaps greenseers age faster than normal Westerosis. Certainly having the greensight puts more of a burden on a person than just being a normal lord, and stress ages people more rapidly.

3) There seem to be disagreements over how the book describes the HS. Can someone provide specifici references, especially to the part where he's described as being stooped and/or has a heavily lined face?

I love this theory. Even if it's totally crackpot it's fun to imagine that there is some kind of mastermind-level Northerner out there entering the fray. Watch out Varys & Littlefinger!