Jump to content

Howland Reed = High Septon?


shmoove

Recommended Posts

thanks guys :cheers:

NP. "Howland Reed is probably to stupid to pull this off" is the worst counter argument I've read in this entire thread.

BTW, I don't know if you missed the story link you asked for, I posted here.

It's almost definite that GRRM would have read Lang's fairy books, considering he wrote 12 of these collections, gathered from many cultures as a collection of fairy lore. Lang was Tolkein's favorite source of fairy lore.

In fact, we pretty much know The Hobbit was heavily influenced by Lang's adaptation of The Story of Sigurd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's common knowledge that HR spent time with the Green Men on the Isle of Faces.

Source - Meera in ASoS.

Jojen and Meera are intelligent children, who know a great deal about history and lore - even more so than Bran, who had a Maester and a library at his disposal.

Just as some omissions in Bran's studies does not make him illiterate or stupid, perceived omissions in Howland's education - or by extension his children's education - does not make them illiterate or stupid.

This is not to say Greywater Watch does not have a Maester or a Library, which would not make sense in a noble household in Westeros. Nevertheless, Jojen and Meera seem very well educated in their own way.

"HR could not have learned about another religion because he lived in a swamp with no books" is a terrible argument. He is a Lord of Westeros, known for his cunning.

Even children learn about religion - even many of them. They don't require a stint in seminary school.

Did I say they were stupid? Please don't put words or arguments in my mouth that I did not use. I am saying that their culture is very different from that of the rest of Westeros and it seems they have preferred to keep it that way rather than mingle or integrate, as they have every right to. Apart from Howard, JoJen and Meera, do we know of any other crannogmen who have chosen to live in Westeros society?

"Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We are a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some..."

I said Howard may be illiterate in the Common Tongue, not that he was illiterate, there is a subtle difference there. I was using as grounds for this Jojen's recounting of the events at Harrenhal which apppears to be from HR POV:

"The crannogman had never seen such pagentry... This was their world... There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him and he pup who was the youngest of the four."

This is a unique narrative POV, delivered by an outsider someone who has very little knowledge of the new culture he is confronting. Unfamiliarity is not the same as ignorance, BTW.

Yes, children learn about religion, again where did I deny this? But they learn about the predominant religion in their culture. Ask an Amish child, for example, about the minutiae of Islamic theology... Would they be able to give you an in depth account or even a passably accurate one? I doubt it.

Interestingly, also from the Harrenhal tale:

"And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered... by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

No mention of the seven there.

From ASoIaF wiki:

The crannogmen are so called for their habit of living in small villages formed of reeds and thatch that sit atop floating islands in the mire (crannogs). They are a poor people and seldom leave their lands, subsisting on fishing and frogging.[1]

They are talented hunters and warriors and despite their short stature and somewhat primitive lifestyle, the crannogmen have proven a notoriously difficult people to conquer. They use nets, bronze knives, frog spears, and round leather shields. They fight with poison, guerrilla tactics, and a mastery of their difficult terrain. According to those who have fought them, their houses, even their castles, move.[1] They are disparaged as "frog-eaters, swamp-dwellers, mud-men and bog devils" by most other people of the Seven Kingdoms, and are looked down upon for their tactics, which are viewed as cowardly.[1][2]

The histories say that the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck.[3]They swore oaths of fealty to the Starks thousands of years ago, when the King in the North defeated the Marsh King and took his daughter as wife. They are ruled by House Reed from Greywater Watch. Other families of crannogmen are House Fenn, Peat, Boggs, Cray, Quagg, Greengood and Blackmyre.[2]

From which it can be inferred: they do not have advanced metalworking technology, they don't make swords, armour or shields of any metal other than bronze, they don't have the means to use stone for their constructions, there is no mention of literacy.

For HR to impersonate no less than the head of the Sept requires a cultural leap similar to that of an amazonian tribes person becoming the CEO of Microsoft... It just doesn't work like that. Likewise, it is highly doubtful that Bill Gates would survive alone very long in the Amazon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I said Howard may be illiterate in the Common Tongue, not that he was illiterate, there is a subtle difference there.

There is no reason in the world to assume that a Lord of Westeros may be illiterate in the common tongue especially.

Did you forget Robb sent him... letters?

I'm afraid this is a very poor assumption on your part, and a poor argument in general against this theory.

As has been stated, HR would not have to give up his religion in order to play a part, as a means to an end. As far as we know, the High Sparrow performed naming ceremonies and marriages, and is now involved in Cersei's trial. There is no evidence that the High Sparrow gives scholarly lectures on the Faith.

Any child on the planet can know the basics of many religions, know the words to ceremonies etc.

People play roles all the time in the series, and they often get away with it because others see what they want/expect to see. Arya is a great example of this throughout.

Your example that HR cannot possibly pretend to be someone else - It would be like meeting Abel the Bard, and presuming he could not possibly be the King in the North because he's just a Bard and that's all he knows.

Oops that happened. He was actually Mance.

Edit: typo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right, Game of Thrones



To make a point, it takes about a year for an average student to earn a Maester's Link (proficiency in a subject). A particularly motivated student (Alleras for example) can earn three per year.



There is no reason Howland Reed could not have become very knowledgeable about the Fot7 in a years time, more or less, especially if motivated by a plan.



Also, everything we know about the High Sparrow has to be filtered through Cersei's eyes.



The only other times he is mention is by Randall Tarly in the ADWD epilogue, an offhand comment about the Sparrows, and by Doran Martell in Areo's ADWD chapter, that he isn't the puppet the other High Septons were.



So, everything is Cersei's POV, and her perceptions, which are often misperceptions, as most of us know. She's self-delusional, biased, and judgemental.



If she sees a frail old man and a bunch of ugly old women, that's what we're led to see.



Say Roose Bolton had a POV in Harrenhal. He might mention his new cupbearer Nan, and by his perception of her, it might be difficult to guess she is Arya Stark, especially since sensitive information about the Starks is discussed in her presence.



So the main arguments against this theory... age, appearance, knowledge of the Faith... are non-arguments to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just for fun, those of you who are considering that Howland Reed might be the High Septon.



I suggest a re-read of Jaime's POV when he and Brienne, and Cleos come upon the man who was NOT an innkeep. A man who George makes sure we understand is not an innkeep with No given name..just the man who is not an innkeep, he is also referred to as the cook, the host, oh and he has a sidekick called the boy. LOL



The entire conversation that man has with Brienne, Jaime and Ser Cleos is full of hints about Cersei and her conversations with the High Septon. Sometimes the story is in reversal but its all a mummer's farce...Brienne sounds like Cersei at times..so does Jaime..but the man who was not an innkeep alway always sounds like the High Septon..



I have looked at looked at the Mummers Urswyk the Faithful and his group traveling to Old Town to the Hightowers to see if there is anyway Hightower is involved in the mummer High Septon.



I have also looked at the Brotherhood without Banners..trying to find someone..who went south with Beric's bones to see if there is anyone who could be the High Septon..



It's clear to me at least that George wants us to consider who this man is..who is this HighSepton.



A re-read of Jaime's POV gives some subtle clues..that is all I will say..:)


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would Howland coming to either Winterfell or Barrowtown to pledge loyalty to the Boltons be more suspicious. He has not left the Neck since Robert's Rebellion which means for about 16 years he apparently never left the Neck to visit Ned (as far as i know). Or when the war broke out after Ned's death he did not go to met Ned's son Robb at Moat Cailin and he sent he's children to Winterfell to renew the Necks and Greywater loyalty to the King in the North. Everyone that has talk about him has said that he is incredibly loyal to the Starks. Knowing that wouldn't him going to pledge loyalty to the Boltons no matter what seem highly suspicion?

This only suggests that he is still in the Neck, and not masquerading as the High Sparrow.

Now for Manderly while yes he did lose a son a the RW he also is know as a fat coward which makes people assume even if he wanted to take revenge he's too much of a coward to do it. He also recently "killed" Stannis right hand man Davos making him an enemy of Stannnis as far as the characters in the story know. He also is easy to monitor with him only eating sleep, and every once and a while having to take a hour long squat. These three thing Manderly make the Freys underestimate him which allows him to win over the Northern lords to his side while making sure the Freys and Roose don't do anything against him. If Howland was in his place the Freys hate crannogmen which means they would distrust him instantly and keep an eye on every move Howland makes. Who would be more successful in this plan Wyman or Howland?

Manderly isn't fooling anyone. Roose distrusts him and knows he killed the Freys, but can't do anything about it because he'd risk alienating what Northern support he does have. If Manderly can pull off a deception like this in Winterfell, then surely Howland could do the same, considering how sneaky the crannogmen are? Furthermore, if there is such a rivalry between the Freys and the crannogmen, then why isn't Howland in the Riverlands fighting the Freys who were, after all, responsible for the Red Wedding?

Well since I brought up the Howland never leave the Neck thing might as well address that too. What would be more rewarding for the readers after all this time waitnig to see him Howland shocking us by being High Septon with a ingenious plan to put Jon on the Throne and get back at the Lannisters or him in the Neck going "You're a Targaryen Jon...whelp you'll never see me again since I never leave the neck see yeah... oh could you tell my kids to come back at some point that would be great thanks."

Howland's "plan" isn't ingenious, it's idiotic. Neither Jon nor any Stark has ever expressed any interest in the Iron Throne, yet Howland is apparently going through all this trouble to give Jon something he doesn't even know Jon wants, or would accept if offered it. What if Jon refuses? Did Howland consider that? Jon also just got assassinated in the North. Oops! Why didn't Howland factor Jon's safety into his "ingenious" plan? And how on earth is the FM helpful to him? The FM hates all enemies of the Seven, and that includes followers of the Old Gods, like Howland and Jon himself. Furthermore, Jon is either Rhaegar's bastard or a product of Rhaegar's polygamous union with Lyanna. He is, in short, everything that the Faith despises, so why on earth would an army of Seven-following zealots support Howland's attempts to crown him? The FM would more likely try to kill them both for heresy.

Also since he's an unknown in the South and one of the few traits we know about him is that he has a way with words. Why doesn't he just use his anonymity in the South to his advantage and grab a formerly very powerful position in the south the High Septon return in to it's former glory by rearming the Faith, and use it in his own way to strike back against the Lannisters? You know the family that killed his close friend, and brought ruin to the North as well as the rest of Westerios?

Because an armed Faith is even more of a threat to his and Jon's religion and way of life than it is to the Lannisters. And if Howland wants to punish the Lannisters for bringing ruin upon the North and Westeros as a whole, he is mostly too late. Tywin, Joffrey, and Tyrion were responsible for the vast majority of Lannister crimes during the war, yet Howland did nothing to punish them. Instead, he is apparently willing to go through a lot of trouble to punish Cersei, who was the least complicit in the Lannisters' crimes, and that too, while ignoring Roose, the Freys, and the Ironborn in the North. Howland's priorities are all mixed up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this sums it up nicely, I don't necessarily agree with ALL of Pobeb's similarities but the basics are there, some of the links might be tenuous, but the start of the thread has some basic similarities upon which this theory is founded. It is entirely possible that this IS some RANDOM Septon but that does not seem likely.

Surely even the most hardened critics of this theory must agree that GRRM has a pattern of revealing that in the latter books some existing characters are introduced then their "real" identity is revealed to the readers. I believe the HS is almost certainly going to be a character we have already heard about, would you prefer Rhaegar, Dayne, Hightower, or Whent? sorry can't think of any other "dead" people off the top of my head. What about the missing Targ who fell to his death? would he fit? So for those who don't like this theory - can you think of a better candidate?

While we are at it, given that HR uses subterfuge & strategy as his weapons of choice can you perhaps provide a scenario of exactly how HR might help avenge Ned by bringing down the Lannisters (who killed him) & help bring justice for the remaining Starks? Do you really think he's going to raise an army to route the Frey's or Boltons? Do you really think that he would NOT avenge Ned? The only problem I have is that it has taken THIS long for him to appear.

i think he would rather do it because of the red wedding than because of neds death. the violation of the guest right is said to be worst crime in the eyes of the gods and as a faithful man it is very likely he has the same opinion about it. so it is not only a personal thing, he has a much stronger motivation. this would explain why he didn't show up earlier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not having an easy time fighting the Boltons? The Boltons are done for. They're inside of a castle, surrounded by enemies, with absolutely nowhere to go. The North Remembers.

The Boltons are hardly done for. They are in Winterfell, which is a virtually impenetrable fortress. They have plenty of food. It's Stannis' army that is freezing and starving. There is no way that they can storm the walls of Winterfell and win. The only way that they would be able to do so is by deception, something that we know crannogmen are very good at. Howland would be far more useful here than in King's Landing.

And as far as the Freys go, they've been dropping like hot cakes since Lady Stoneheart hung Petyr Frey. Scores of them are being killed all over the Riverlands, and not just by LS and the BwB.

Castle Darry is overrun with the same bearded, axe-wielding sparrows who occupy King's Landing. And who is at Castle Darry? A score of Freys, including: Arwood Frey, Ami Frey, and Perriane Frey's sons - Donnel and Harys. Even the Elder Brother notes how Freys are washing up at the Quiet Isle; hinting at House Darry's involvement.

The Sparrows who are at Castle Darry are apparently loyal to the pious Lancel Lannister. And what House Darry is there to be involved in anything? House Darry is extinct in the male line, and the female members all married into House Frey.

In Jaime's PoV when he has his meeting with the Riverlords and Freys, Lord Crakehall, Lord Vance, and especially Lord Piper all clearly show that they want the Freys dead.

After this meeting, Ryman Frey (Walder's heir), is killed by Stoneheart and Co., which leaves Edwyn Frey and Black Walder at each others throats.

Jared Frey, Symund Frey, and Rhaegar Frey were all chopped up and put into pies via Lord Manderly.

Aenys Frey broke his neck charging blindly into a trap set the Crowfood Umber and his group.

And the rest of the noteworthy Freys are all North, about to be eliminated when the Manderlys push them into Stannis' ice-hole trap at the Gift.

So, as you can clearly now see, both Freys and Boltons are on the brink of being destroyed. Therefore, Howland isn't really needed.

Killing subordinate Freys accomplishes nothing. Walder is still alive, and the Freys still hold Greatjon Umber, Patrek Mallister, and Marq Piper. Edmure Tully is a Lannister captive, and the Freys still hold the Twins and Riverrun. Clearly, there is a lot more to do in the Riverlands, and the Freys are far from the brink of destruction. Again, Howland's support would be far more useful here than in KL.

Why would Howland wait for an assumed collapse in the regime rather than doing what he could to ensure it?

Because what he is doing hasn't really weakened the Lannister regime, and does absolutely nothing to help the North or crown Jon. Fighting against the Freys and Boltons, on the other hand, directly helps the North.

So, yes, the Lannisters needed to be dealt with.

And what did Howland do to "deal" with them? He had no way of knowing that Osney Kettleblack would provide him with evidence against Cersei. Furthermore, his removal of Cersei only allowed Kevan to return and try to rebuild the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, meaning his plan backfired. Howland was saved by pure luck when Varys assassinated Kevan, because Howland had nothing to do with that. Did he not take into account the possibility that Cersei would be replaced by someone more competent, like Kevan? And what if Cersei wins her trial and becomes reinstated as regent? Did Howland not consider this possibility either? And what if Howland was delayed on the way to KL and only reached KL after the election of a new High Septon? What if the Goldcloaks had arrested or killed him for storming the Sept of Baelor? What if the FM refuses to back Jon? What if, after all is said and done, Jon refuses to become King? What if the no one outside KL accepts him as King? Plus, why didn't Howland consider the possibility that Jon might die at the Wall, considering there are Boltons, Freys, Ironborn, wildlings, and Others/wights in the vicinity? Howland's plan relies heavily on things he cannot control working in his favor, which suggests that either he is an awful planner, or that this entire conspiracy is false.

Huh? Re-establishing the Faith Militant (which had to be royaly disbanded because of how powerful they were) is squandering two meaningless pieces of trade? Sorry, I don't understand that logic.

You seriously don't get how the Faith Militant, which is a fanatical, militarized arm of the Seven, which passionately hates all other religions, would necessarily be a threat to the Old Gods, the gods that Howland, Jon, and most of the North follow? You don't get how the Faith Militant would have absolutely no desire to crown Jon, who follows a religion they hate, and is either a bastard or a product of polygamy, both of which are considered sinful by the Faith? Jon is a walking, talking abomination in the eyes of the Faith, and Howland is not much better off. The FM is much more likely to kill both of them and call for a holy war against the Northern tree-worshipers than it is to follow them.

lol, ok. If you can't see the parallels in appearance, or with the septas and the She-Bear carving on Mormont Gate, then I don't know how else to explain it to you. We'll have to agree to disagree here.

There are no "parallels in appearance." Your basis for this claim is that the septas look like Mormont women, but we have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the septas are much too old to be Maege's daughters. You might say that they are warrior-women from Bear Island, but we have no evidence to suggest that the septas' appearance resembles that of women from Bear Island who are not part of House Mormont.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ANTLER'S FURY. The truth is Howland's priorities are unclear at this point. People can speculate that Howland wants to crown Jon, or that he should be fighting Freys, or anything else in favour or against the theory. But in the end, it remains speculation.

Personally, I think there is a deeper narrative to Howland's goal and that it is connected to the Green Men, who GRRM has said will come to the fore in the later books. The Sacred Order of Green Men were established during the Pact between Children and men and I don't see them being too concerned about the game of thrones. Howland spent a winter on the Isle of Faces, he was present at the ToJ where one of the leading candidates for the PwwP was born, he sent his kids to lead Bran to Bloodraven and CotF, the Crannogmen grew close to the Children, the First Men enlisted the help of the Children in the fight against the Others, and now the Others are rising after thousands of years and the realm of men, regardless of religion, are under threat, a fact that most of the realm seems oblivious to. The song of ice and fire is almost certain to supersede the game of thrones in the next two books and that's why I think Howland is connected to this strand of the story rather than anything else. So maybe his priorities are not as mixed up as you suggest.

Of course I'm speculating too, but at least I admit it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The blessing: She is not religious so the blessing does not matter to her personally. Also most High Septon do this at the start of their term. So to her he's not doing something she feels he's required to do, and should have already done without any prompting. The only reason she cares is the ignorant peasants think it is important and having it keeps them happy.

The blessing was apparently important enough for her to go the High Sparrow in person, despite not wanting to, and for her to give up the Crown's monopoly on military power. So it was clearly important from a political standpoint.

The Debt: Cersei doesn't really seem to care about debts could be because she a Lannister but who knows. She later blows off the debt to the Iron Bank later on which everyone that hears about it consider it a stupid move.

The debt is also very important, because if Cersei payed it, then she wouldn't have money to build a new navy. Yet, without paying it, she wouldn't have the blessing for Tommen. Thus, Howland could have easily forced Cersei to pick one at the expense of the other. Instead, he gives away both for an army of zealots who hate the Old Gods, bastards, and polygamy, all of which are associated with Jon, who Howland supposedly wants to crown? This is a remarkably foolhardy "plan."

Since Antler going to bring it up whether or not the High Septon is Howland or not his goal was to get that army. So he was willing to give up those two leverages for that army. OK then what happens next? Who going to get that army?

An army of Seven-worshiping religious fanatics is useful to the High Sparrow, who is also a Seven-worshiping religious fanatic. It is absolutely worthless to Howland Reed if he intends to crown Jon, a follower of the Old Gods, who also happens to be either a bastard or born of polygamy, both of which are things that the Faith despises.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this sums it up nicely, I don't necessarily agree with ALL of Pobeb's similarities but the basics are there, some of the links might be tenuous, but the start of the thread has some basic similarities upon which this theory is founded. It is entirely possible that this IS some RANDOM Septon but that does not seem likely.

Why is it unlikely? From a narrative standpoint, the High Sparrow makes much more sense if he is exactly who he says he is. He is representative of the common people's fury at the corruption of the religious authorities and the negligence of the secular authorities. Up until now the lords have taken smallfolk meekness for granted, but the High Sparrow rose because the smallfolk's patience finally snapped, making them willing to take matters into their own hands. This adds realistic depth and complexity to the Game of Thrones by showing that the lords' actions have serious consequences, and introduces the Faith as a player of the Game, all of which is undercut if the High Sparrow is not really a puritan but a charlatan. Furthermore, the role that the High Sparrow plays in Cersei's downfall is meant to show us how Cersei opened up a Pandora's Box of trouble when she foolishly re-armed the Faith, and ended up getting entangled in the web of schemes and lies that she wove. Throughout Cersei's political career we have seen her repeatedly make bad decisions fueled by hubris and paranoia, so it is only to be expected that her own poor decision making comes back to bite her in the ass, as has happened to several other influential figures in King's Landing, like Jon Arryn, Ned, Robert, Tyrion, and Tywin. This is again undercut if Howland Reed always intended to bring her down.

While we are at it, given that HR uses subterfuge & strategy as his weapons of choice can you perhaps provide a scenario of exactly how HR might help avenge Ned by bringing down the Lannisters (who killed him) & help bring justice for the remaining Starks? Do you really think he's going to raise an army to route the Frey's or Boltons? Do you really think that he would NOT avenge Ned?

How exactly is Howland avenging Ned by having Cersei imprisoned and executed, Tommen overthrown, and Jon crowned? Ned did not want any of this. He actually worked to ensure that Cersei and Tommen remained unpunished, and that Jon was kept as far away from the Iron Throne as possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How exactly is Howland avenging Ned by having Cersei imprisoned and executed, Tommen overthrown, and Jon crowned? Ned did not want any of this. He actually worked to ensure that Cersei and Tommen remained unpunished, and that Jon was kept as far away from the Iron Throne as possible.

Ned didn't want Cersie and her offspring slaughtered because he was opposed to killing children. Also, this was before (possibly in HR's eyes) Cersei got Ned executed.

Jon being crowned would prevent a Lannister bastard sitting on the iron throne.

I don't believe the theory, but I do enjoy all of it's little ironies. :cool4:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ned didn't want Cersie and her offspring slaughtered because he was opposed to killing children. Also, this was before (possibly in HR's eyes) Cersei got Ned executed.

So? Killing Cersei and her kids does not bring Ned back from the dead. "Avenging" the Starks in this manner doesn't actually help any of the Starks, least of all Jon, who has no interest in the Iron Throne that we know of. Howland has no reason to believe that any Stark, least of all Jon, who, as far as Howland knows, joined the NW and became LC, has any interest in crowning Jon.

Jon being crowned would prevent a Lannister bastard sitting on the iron throne.

How exactly is a Stark/Targaryen bastard somehow better?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Boltons are hardly done for.

We're CLEARLY not reading the same story.

I can't continue to argue with someone who bases their entire argument in their own opinion.

Everyone has done more than enough to provide you with the relevant text. You've continued to ignore said text and asserted your opinion in every single argument thus far. I can't find one post of yours in which you're supporting your argument with text. Not one; in spite of all the evidence put before you. As such, it is pointless to keep arguing with you.

You've grabbed the baton from Hippocras, and are running at full speed. Sadly, there isn't a finish line for you - just a gigantic brick wall.

I'm going to just ignore your posts now, I'd advise you to do the same for mine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We're CLEARLY not reading the same story.

I can't continue to argue with someone who bases their entire argument in their own opinion.

Everyone has done more than enough to provide you with the relevant text. You've continued to ignore said text and asserted your opinion in every single argument thus far. I can't find one post of yours in which you're supporting your argument with text. Not one; in spite of all the evidence put before you. As such, it is pointless to keep arguing with you.

You've grabbed the baton from Hippocras, and are running at full speed. Sadly, there isn't a finish line for you - just a gigantic brick wall.

I'm going to just ignore your posts now, I'd advise you to do the same for mine.

On the contrary. Your entire theory is based mostly on your own opinion on lots of things, like the supposed "parallels" between the septas and the Mormonts, the supposed "symbolic connection" between Cersei's walk of shame and the dancing bears that Hotah thinks about, the supposed "link" between the turtle on the Rhoyne and Howland Reed, etc. You simply insist that there are connections where there are none, and ignore most evidence that indicates otherwise. There is virtually no hard evidence for this theory aside from what you have manufactured and tried to legitimize by repeating it ad nauseam, and blindly insisting that it is simply ridiculous to question your theory. My arguments have been based entirely on what the text tells us. I have posted my objections to your theory several times, and referenced and quoted the relevant text. You repeatedly choose to ignore most of the criticisms I have made, and continue to belabor the same debunked talking points over and over again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the contrary. Your entire theory is based mostly on your own opinion on lots of things, like the supposed "parallels" between the septas and the Mormonts, the supposed "symbolic connection" between Cersei's walk of shame and the dancing bears that Hotah thinks about, etc. You simply insist that there are connections where there are none, and ignore most evidence that indicates otherwise. There is virtually no hard evidence for this theory aside from what you have manufactured and tried to legitimize by repeating it ad nauseam, and blindly insisting that it is simply ridiculous to question your theory. My arguments have been based entirely on what the text tells us. I have posted my objections to your theory several times, and references and quoted the relevant text. You repeatedly choose to ignore most of the criticisms I have made, and continue to belabor the same debunked talking points over and over again.

Strangely, the HIgh Sparrow appears only in Cersei's multiple POVs and Areo Hotah's POV, where he mentions both the bears and Doran's comment about the new High Septon not being a puppet. Other than a passing mention by Randall in the ADWD epilogue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...