The maesters chain

[Friendly Thenn]

Also, i believe Pycelles chain is just a ceremonial one passed from Grand Maester to Grand Maester ... possibly with each adding links to it? That or else his own personal chain is still his but he just doesn't wear it in favour of the bling, which would be the masters version of the crystal crown

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So then now we have an additional question.. which links do you need to earn before being allowed to try out for your "final exam".?

I really hope Sam tells it all in Winds :)

[RuthBolton]

Nice! I'm interested in this, I really hope Sam gives more insight.

I'm guessing the necessary basics are ravens, literacy, healing, which could actually be multiple links, ie herbs as one, midwifery as one (at least Luwin had this skill!) etc.

I'd assume they'd need some basic political knowledge too, given that they're supposed to advise their lords, right? We know Luwin also had some lessons with Bran, so really they'd need whatever knowledge the Lord of their castle wouldn't pass directly on to the kids (such as Ned personally teaching more leadership skills to his boys).

I hope we learn about an official list in the next books.

I also presumed the Grand Maester had a decorative chain with extra links to mark his station, to stay on the original topic.

[Greymoon]

I don't think it makes much sense for there not to be certain essential courses (i.e. accounting, raven craft, healing, reading and writing, etc) that a link must be earned in for an acolyte to qualify for graduation. What is the point of having a maester in the first place if they can't do these things? The other links (valyrian steel etc) then would more or less be window dressing, aiming for a station with a more prestigious house.

You are speaking about graduation, others about final exam, as if this were a modern day educational facility. It isn't... There'd be essential disciplines for maesters yes -- but who says that all novice at the citadel set out to become full maesters? Who says, that one must first study the essential; "core" disciplines required to become a maester; before being allowed to study other disciplines?

Who says that one cannot spend 30 years at the citadel without ever "graduating"? a squire doesn’t always become a knight...some squire their whole life. Here, it is the same imo. It’s a matter of forging links in the core disciplines; but also of saying the proper words – and if one’s character was flawed for ex. it’s quite possible the Archmaesters could “veto” or delay the “graduation” of a novice. Or a novice might not want to take vows...

The Valyrian Steel link is optional -- Maester Luwin is one of the few who bothered to forge it. The study of Poisons, would probably go hand in hand with healing -- to me; poisons and counter poisons would be sub-fields of healing. A big discipline like healing, would probably encompass a number of sub-fields; and take more than a few years to be studied in its entirety...

Pregnancy and childbirth would be one such field. Poisons and counter poisons, too. Common illnesses and ailments another; and a last would be something along the line of tending the wounded; with sewing; cleaning wounds; basic surgery; ect. being part of it. There being sub-fields, would fit with the below quote that it is possible to earn multiple links of the same metal, if each sub-fields of a greater discipline required a link to be forged, for ex...

I think it’s safe to say that a maester would be required to earn every link pertaining to healing – that is their most important job imo. Another important job is the care and training of ravens.

....the glass candle “exam”; is a philosophical question is it not? up until the birth of Dany’s dragons, they could not be light – the citadel is adverse to magic...it seems like a way to test the wit and character of novices; by giving them a task that is believed impossible to accomplish.

Maesters should probably be instructed in history; and geography. There must be able to give sound advice and counsel to those they serve – they also, iirc, function as preceptor for high born children.

Thus – healing and its many sub categories; the care of ravens, philosophy; history and geography seems the basic requirements for a good maester. Sums and letters of course are too; but that’s probably a requirement for a novice already....

the Wiki states this: (though I have no idea where the info comes from for most of these....what is "warcraft"? shouldn't it be "warfare"?)...I've bolded the disciplines that to me, should be a requirement....

The collar signifies that maesters do not serve themselves, but are instead servants of all of Westeros. The collar consists of several links of different types of metal. These chains are formed from every metal known to man, but almost no maester will ever wear them all. Maesters do not remove the chain ever, not even when sleeping.

According to semi-canon sources, it is possible to earn multiple links of the same metal.

These metals include:

• Black iron (Ravenry)
• Brass
• Bronze (Astronomy)
• Copper (History)
• Electrum (Astrology)
• Yellow Gold (Economics)
• Iron (Warcraft)
• Lead
• Pale steel (Smithing)
• Pewter
• Platinum
• Red gold
• Silver (Medicine and healing)
• Steel
• Tin
• Valyrian steel

[Friendly Thenn]

I didn't mean to make it sound like a college based system ... IIRC from Pates chapter in the citadel he was able to choose which link to try for next ... i was just floating the idea that there were certain links that would be essential to consider yourself a maester, not that this "core" was attempted first before the others or something like that

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I agree that it seems likely that there are several links you have to earn before being able to take your maester vows. Which links these are, I don't think we can know yet exactly, though guesses about childbirth, and medicine, and ravenry seem logical, though what else you need I don't know.

So it definitly isn't about the number of links anymore, but also about which links you have. To reformulate my OP question then, how many, and which, links do you need to earn before being able to call yourself a maester and take the maester vows?

It does seem to be the case that you can choose which subject to try out for. So you can choose your subjects yourself.

Who says that one cannot spend 30 years at the citadel without ever "graduating"?

We already seem to know one person who has spend a significant amount of time studying at the Citadel without becoming a maester: Lorcas, who has been at the Citadel for 50 years, and has 9 links.

the Wiki states this: (though I have no idea where the info comes from for most of these....what is "warcraft"? shouldn't it be "warfare"?)...I've bolded the disciplines that to me, should be a requirement....

Most of the info from the Citadel and becoming a maester comes from the RPGs. Consider most of the stuff on the wiki to be semi-canon (though the sources should list the RPGs, but I guess whoever edited that page forgot to list the sources?).

[Fool of a Book]

There seems to be a very limited number of households that require the employment of a Maester, and likely all of those positions are currently filled. Maesters of a noble household would certainly need links in ravenry, history, astronomy, economics and healing at a minimum to be useful to the lord and his household. Maybe multiple links in each area are levels of mastery.

So another question is, why so many acolytes trying to become Maesters? With an almost non-existent chance to become Maester for a noble house, what is the alternative? Hanging out in the citadel forever? Walking the earth - as it's implied Marywn did? What would be the motivation, other than pure learning, a la Oberyn?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Don't the maesters who remain at the Citadel do research? Perhaps that's what you are supposed to do when there isn't a spot for you yet.

Old maesters need to be replaced (at times before their deaths). And in a time of plenty, when there are enough maesters available from the Citadel, even the minor houses might get a maester (if they can pay the money). That could be an improvement.

As to why go study at the Citadel when there are more than enough maesters, besides the reasons I already mentioned, for the lowerborn, it might just be to gain a place in the world. Once in the Citadel, you have a roof over your head. There's food. And someone to care for you when you get sick. For lowborns, such as Pate, going to the Citadel seems like a good plan.

For the higher borns that shouldn't be an issue (think Leo Tyrell, Samwell Tarly, Aemon Targaryen). Perhaps in the south, going to the Citadel is the southron equivalent of going to the Night's Watch in the North? Like, when there is no place for you in a big family (Aemon, possibly Leo Tyrell), that reminds me of being a third son with nothing to inherit going to the Night's Watch (Waymar Royce).

[Fool of a Book]

Don't the maesters who remain at the Citadel do research? Perhaps that's what you are supposed to do when there isn't a spot for you yet.

Old maesters need to be replaced (at times before their deaths). And in a time of plenty, when there are enough maesters available from the Citadel, even the minor houses might get a maester (if they can pay the money). That could be an improvement.

As to why go study at the Citadel when there are more than enough maesters, besides the reasons I already mentioned, for the lowerborn, it might just be to gain a place in the world. Once in the Citadel, you have a roof over your head. There's food. And someone to care for you when you get sick. For lowborns, such as Pate, going to the Citadel seems like a good plan.

For the higher borns that shouldn't be an issue (think Leo Tyrell, Samwell Tarly, Aemon Targaryen). Perhaps in the south, going to the Citadel is the southron equivalent of going to the Night's Watch in the North? Like, when there is no place for you in a big family (Aemon, possibly Leo Tyrell), that reminds me of being a third son with nothing to inherit going to the Night's Watch (Waymar Royce).

Makes sense.

Another question... who chooses the Maesters for the noble houses? I'd assume it's partially based on which links are most valuable to the house's needs.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Makes sense.

Another question... who chooses the Maesters for the noble houses? I'd assume it's partially based on which links are most valuable to the house's needs.

Are there different needs between houses?

I assume there is a council amongst the maesters (perhaps the archmaesters) who decide which maester goes where... And if that's not the case, it might be on a basis of who finished his studies first.

If X finished his studies before Y and Z and a spot opens up, X will go to that castle whilst Y and Z will remain at the Citadel.

But if it was Z who had finished his studies first, and then X and then Y, and a spot opened up somewhere, it would be Z who would be send. If then another spot opens up, X will be send.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

After Oberyn studied at the Citadel, he travelled to the Free Cities, where he learned the art of poison, amongst other things. It's always possible that Oberyn's basic knowledge of poisons came from his time at the Citadel, of course.

I assumed he stutied alchemy in Lys.

I think the worldbook would give more insight about the Citadel, there is a section about Oldtown. Even if we don't get anything from the worldbook, Sam is in the Citadel so it's a win-win.

[WeaselPie]

Are there different needs between houses?

I assume there is a council amongst the maesters (perhaps the archmaesters) who decide which maester goes where... And if that's not the case, it might be on a basis of who finished his studies first.

If X finished his studies before Y and Z and a spot opens up, X will go to that castle whilst Y and Z will remain at the Citadel.

But if it was Z who had finished his studies first, and then X and then Y, and a spot opened up somewhere, it would be Z who would be send. If then another spot opens up, X will be send.

A noble house could certainly want certain specialties, beyond a list of "basics." It might be more valuable to a particular House to have a Maester who knows more about smithing, for example.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I assumed he stutied alchemy in Lys.

I think the worldbook would give more insight about the Citadel, there is a section about Oldtown. Even if we don't get anything from the worldbook, Sam is in the Citadel so it's a win-win.

Sorry, I just read in one of the RPGs (which is the only source for the order of events in Oberyn's youth), that Oberyn first went to the Free Cities, where he "dabbled in dark arts, learning secrets of poisoning", and only then returned to study at the Citadel.

I think I mixed them up earlier by accident

After, Oberyn left Dorne to explore the Free Cities. There he dabbled

in the dark arts, learning the secrets of poisoning and far more, only to

return to the Seven Kingdoms to study at the Citadel. He stayed there

long enough to forge six links of a maester’s chain, and then he moved

on again. He fought in the Disputed Lands, rode with a mercenary

company for a time, and had many exploits of love, battles, wars, and

more.

Curious: why do you think Lys specifically?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Curious: why do you think Lys specifically?

Lyseni are renown for their alchemist? Whetever time they mention an exotic poison, it's either from Lys or it's also made in Lys. Maester Cressen mentions "alchemists of Lys" among the people who would make a Stranger.

It seems like a good place to learn arts of poisoning.

[Khal Shaggydog]

I thought some source of his poison knowledge, and poison, was Dorne itself? Had he already gone abroad etc when he killed the Yronwood? I thought that was some sort of semi-exile to let the heat die down after killing a Lord (like Michael Corleone in Godfather I).

[FittleLinger]

I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thing, but don't some quotes say that some maesters' chains are tight around their necks? Of course, we don't know how large a link is, but 10-15 seems about right to me for a not so advanced, but already maester.

[The Green Griffin]

I recall that Grand Maesters wear several large chains that are not actually indicative of links they've earned, but represent the grand maester position. Novices become acolytes when they've mad three links and maesters when they've forged a full chain, which seems to have been just a choker in at least some cases. I'm not sure how big the links are, but I imagine a chain has around a dozen or so links. I think a lot of this information is on the wiki, though that isn't strictly speaking cannon, but neither is the RPG. Hope that helps.

[ValrianSunni]

[quote

Taking a look at the other students at the Citadel:

• Armen, with 4 links, in 4 years
• Alleras, with 3 links, in 1 year
• Pate had arrived when he was 13 years old, but still had no links 5 years later
• Lorcas, with 9 links, in 50 years

There's also Pylos, who had arrived at Dragonstone in 298AC, and who had been 24 years old by then. There's no indication on how old he was when he had started his studies.

And there's Kerwin, who at the age of 22 had already been in service at a castle by the time he got taken by House Greyjoy.

I'm not sure what Lorcas means here. 9 links is higher than the minimum we previously had found, but he's still not a maester, though he still works at the Citadel. What does it mean?

It is true that the average student earns 1 link a year, and they do seem to be done with their studies (also, on average) by roughly the age of 25 at the latest. So if students arrive around 13 years old on average as well, than about 12 links might be (roughly at the moment) the minimum? (with your inch per link, Dire Dragon :p ).

That might explain why several people dropped out at 6 links (halfway through you evaluate your process), and why Lorcas with his 9 links still hasn't made it to maester..

[Broken Wolf]

These metals include:

• Black iron (Ravenry)
  
• Brass
  
• Bronze (Astronomy)
  
• Copper (History)
  
• Electrum (Astrology)
  
• Yellow Gold (Economics)
  
• Iron (Warcraft)
  
• Lead
  
• Pale steel (Smithing)
  
• Pewter
  
• Platinum
  
• Red gold
  
• Silver (Medicine and healing)
  
• Steel
  
• Tin
  
• Valyrian steel (Magic and the occult) - Only one in one hundred holds a link of Valyrian steel; the study of magic is looked down upon by most maesters.
  

I just wanna know what those other metals represent. If every link represents mastery of a different area of learning, what are those "different areas"? And are there any other links in the chain?

[Aniel]

I feel there's one more criteria to become a maester which hasn't been brought up: suitability.

This holds especially true for maesters going to serve a noble house, and less so for a maester who just wants to sit around the Citadel studying and experimenting all his life. The question is then "What should a maester be?" or "Does the Citadel even care if their maesters are assholes?" I'm going to go ahead and answer the second question myself: they probably only care if they're going to be seen by non-maesters... It's one thing to conduct vivisections like Qyburn, another to just be a dick.

I'd say that it's in the interests of both the Citadel and individual maesters not to be viewed negatively and that that might have some impact on whether or not you might be allowed to become a maester, regardless of how learned you are.

So, in case there really is a minimum limit regarding links, if you're an unsavory person or just overly vocal about your political leanings you might end up with many more links than is required to become a maester and still not actually end up a maester.

I feel like I could write tons more on this subject but since the thread isn't all that active and I'm fairly new to the world of ASOIAF it's all going to be relatively useless... :mellow: