Lyse Stark Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Nah... cliche :cool4:It won't be a cliche if GRRM subverts it by looking at Jon's motivations and mentality, and show how his upbringing have affected him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Who said this story was about lost Princes and magic?In terms of "cliche," it's all been done before. There is not much left on the table to do anything different, so either way you go, it's a cliche' even if Jon rides off into the lonely sunset, defeating the Others and never being seen again, lost in the mystery of Westeros. Its also very possible that it's Jon who goes mad, or becomes cruel. The flipside of both his bloodlines is the cruelty, madness and abomination that lie within.The old Kings of Winter, harsh as the land they ruled, a Stark that committed an abomination with an Other, and the Targaryens, well....Blood magic and blood sacrifices on both sides to harness the power of gods. Anyway, while there is magic enough, it's not the focus of the story. The focus of the story ARE the very themes Faulkner writes about and which so influences Martin who quoted Faulkner himself, " the heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about."Not the various, magical bugaboos, (though they serve as symbols in the cautionary tale in regards to religious zealotry, prophesy and looking for answers not meant to be known, rather than living life). The Others are a problem, but they are a symptom for something else that is also likely rooted in a universe out of sync with itself.The dragons could be a problem. They certainly don't mind snatching up little children for hor d'oevres, so the idea that they are a force for "good" is debatable. If they can't actually eat The Others, they may not be interested in killing them, but the point is, they too are likely this worlds response to something out of balance. No, I think the story is about loving where you shouldn't, and love being the death of duty and honor. It's about family, functional and dsyfunctional, and wanting to belong, ask Theon and Lady Dustin. It's about strong and powerful men being reduced to the pitiable in the face of loving someone you can't have, (Rhaegar, Sandor, Jorah, Tyrion, Jaimie, Peter Bailish, Robert, etc.), and women loving where they are told or losing their lives because they made a choice they didn't have a right to make.It's a time where 7 out of ten children born, die before the age of five, and women fight their battles in birthing bed and often lose, while men lose theirs on the battlefield, and it still happens.(I had a co-worker the other day confide to me that of her three children, only one lived as the other two died in infancy). If this story sounds "cliche," it is because there is nothing new under the sun, and especially in regards to the human heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 And if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 *snip Well said :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Well said :) I hate the word "cliche" as if something "different" holds the promise of something better. :closedeyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I hate the word "cliche" as if something "different" holds the promise of something better. :closedeyes::agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I hate the word "cliche" as if something "different" holds the promise of something better. :closedeyes: Exactly! Pepperoni pizza is not cliche, it's delicious. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Exactly! Pepperoni pizza is not cliche, it's delicious. ;) :drool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Exactly! Pepperoni pizza is not cliche, it's delicious. ;)And so is four-cheese pizza! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hmmm, a foreshadowing of the younger, more beautiful Queen? B) http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/28/article-2300292-18F73B73000005DC-390_634x858.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hmmm, a foreshadowing of the younger, more beautiful Queen? B) http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/28/article-2300292-18F73B73000005DC-390_634x858.jpg Arya Horseface?? nahhhhhhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Arya Horseface?? nahhhhhhhShe of many faces, She-wolf of Braavos, the dreaded justice of the North?Oh YEAH!!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 She of many faces, She-wolf of Braavos, the dreaded justice of the North?Oh YEAH!!! :) :lol: "the dreaded justice of the North," I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlaw's Book the Sequel Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Arya Horseface?? nahhhhhhh "It was not for your tail alone that my sister [Elia] and I [Oberyn] came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest of sorts. A quest that took us to Starfall... Squire Squishlips and his ilk and the various pimply young maidens who'd been paraded before were the almonds before the feast..." Ashara Dayne could've been one of those pimply young maidens Oberyn mentions, and if Ashara Dayne can have an awkward adolescent phase, then Arya can be (or become) pretty enough to be the "younger, more beautiful queen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Another problem I have with the Warrior Hero/Prince is precisely this business of not just tropes but cliches. One of the biggest going is the young innocent lad who knows nothing of his destiny but embraces it reluctantly in order to do the needful or bravely die trying. That's a major reason why I'm reluctant to embrace the idea that Jon Snow will follow that particular line. Arguably to subvert that trope properly, Jon would have to learn of his parentage, turn his back on the Wall and what lies beyond and storm southward to sieze his throne and to hell with the Others. Not going to happen obviously and overall I find it difficult to believe that this will in the end be resolved in battle, against the Others or anyone else. A cliche is nothing but a poorly implemented archetype. It is not the existence of the motive itself but the way it is used that makes all the difference. What you propose is certainly not the only way to do so properly . Hmmm, a foreshadowing of the younger, more beautiful Queen? B) http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/28/article-2300292-18F73B73000005DC-390_634x858.jpg Yes, why not? Arya is growing into the image of Lyanna, the Kindly Man mentions that she would make a splendid career as a courtesan. Dany, Sansa and the other beauties would be just red herrings here :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 A cliche is nothing but a poorly implemented archetype. It is not the existence of the motive itself but the way it is used that makes all the difference. What you propose is certainly not the only way to do so properly . Yes, why not? Arya is growing into the image of Lyanna, the Kindly Man mentions that she would make a splendid career as a courtesan. Dany, Sansa and the other beauties would be just red herrings here :-)Exactly, because its from Cersei's perspective of Maggie's prophesy. And only the most beautiful can beome Courtesans, so the Kindly Man sees something under those scabby knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasi Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 On the subject of clichés, Jon's potential hero path does sound familiar... Luke Skywalker comes to mind immediately. But you know what? I love Star Wars and it's a Damn good story full of emotional payoff both positive and negative. Luke's story is one that is as old as fiction itself. But what keeps it relevant and enjoyable is the examination of his motivations and the impact he has on the plot and other characters. Jon would be the same, but made unique by Martin's crazy political landscape and marriage of reality and magic. Cliché? Could be. But you know you're going to love reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 If this story sounds "cliche," it is because there is nothing new under the sun, and especially in regards to the human heart. THIS. If people think that their supposed non-cliché intepretations of ASoIaF represents a revolutionary uniqueness in history of storytelling... they haven't been paying attention to 5000 years of legends/myths/lore/theatre/literature. This "if it doesn't go the oh-so-original way it should, then it's a cliché" denotes quite a bit of intellectual arrogance.I know that I know nothing, like Jon... and Socrates lol but I respect and trust Martin to deliver an unforgettable tale, wherever he will take HIS story.As for cliché *shrug* one of the most beautiful ASoIaF passages is a huge, touching, heart-breaking cliché, and I'm sorry people are too focused on their ideas of a perfect fantasy world to even notice that the struggles of the heart are a thing of beauty: "Even those who lack a man's parts may still have a man's heart," said Grey Worm. "This one has been told that your servant Stalwart Shield sometimes gave coin to the women of the brothels, to lay with him and hold him." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubarey Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 " they haven't been paying attention to 5000 years of legends/myths/lore/theatre/literature." They also have not read any British history. Everything from the conquest to the fabled line of king's,different lines of the royal family fighting to gain the throne, the red wedding, claims of killing child kings to gain the throne, ugly misshapen Princes or Fat Drunk Kings with possible adulterous/and or incest commiting wives, tales of magic swords Hero kings that will return, mad kings and disfunctional noble (or royal) families, are taken directly from history books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hmmm, a foreshadowing of the younger, more beautiful Queen? B) http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/28/article-2300292-18F73B73000005DC-390_634x858.jpgDefinitely young and beautiful! And on a throne ;)Fwiw, Maisy is my choice of girl for my son, they're the exact same age and she's so darn cute and spunky! Not that I have an actual choice in the matter :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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