Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I like this theory, however: http://boiledleather.com/post/31921132635/did-oberyn-poison-tywin-the-case-against So.... No widow's blood for Tywin.. It has been confirmed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northernmonkey Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 So.... No widow's blood for Tywin.. It has been confirmed? Why does it have to be widows blood? Oberyn knows about all kinds of poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 So.... No widow's blood for Tywin.. It has been confirmed? I dunno. It's possible that Martin did intend for him to have been poisioned and he and Ran and Linda have just never discussed it? I dunno if they were speaking from some inside knowledge, or just speculating as fans that Widow's Blood would still prevent you from defecating as you die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Seeing that Ran thinks the theory is total nonsense makes me kinda happy cause that's how I've always felt. Still enjoy the thread good work Paper Waver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Why does it have to be widows blood? Oberyn knows about all kinds of poison. Well some of the evidence for the theory is based on the idea that it was Widow's Blood. (Tywin being in the privy for a long time, the smell) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Why does it have to be widows blood? Oberyn knows about all kinds of poison. Because that was a specific theory, that widow's blood was used :) And because they were specifically mentioning it. So that's why I asked about one poison only. I dunno. It's possible that Martin did intend for him to have been poisioned and he and Ran and Linda have just never discussed it? I dunno if they were speaking from some inside knowledge, or just speculating as fans that Widow's Blood would still prevent you from defecating as you die. But that they say it's "total nonsense", suggesting, IMO at least, that they are certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Yeah you're probably right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 I asked the OP this before in another thread what narrative purpose does any of this serve from a writing stand point why have Oberyn poison Tywin and not have anythingtg come of it. let's say for arguments sake that Oberyn did poison Tywin at this point it couldn't be revealed had no impact on the story so it's no differnt than if it hadn't happend. it's like writing a book where a character plays to shoot someone they hate but on a way to go kill him he finds out he was hit by a bus. what was the point then Actually it was discussed before. Varys has to hide the poisoning because if Tywin was diagnosed to die from poison, Oberyn and Dorne would naturally get the blame. Then, the failing Lannister-Tyrell alliance would get a common enemy to hold on together. Dany was never the original plan and fAegon came without her. Dorne is central to fAegon's campaign. All the clever characters know that Dorne is not ready to defy their power yet. So, letting Dorne get the blame and be forced to fight the IT alone is like a suicide for fAegon’s campaign. Therefore, as soon as Varys confirmed the poisoning (Oberyn was not making it easy to miss that), he thought of another way to kill Tywin and cover the poisoning. And at the same time he didn’t want to be known to be the killer. It works better for him if his hands stay clean. Varys is already despised in the Realm and any foul thing that benefits fAegon would be attributed to Varys and poison their PR campaign. We know that Varys has a plan to frame several parties for the assassination of Kevan and Pycelle. I think even if Jaime didn’t force him to save Tyrion from the jail, he would still smuggle him out. He would still play reverse psychology on him to force him to kill Tywin. That chest under the crossbow gives this idea. And even if Tyrion did not go upstairs and kill Tywin, I bet Varys himself would kill him just like Kevan and Pycelle. In any case, missing Tyrion would be accused for the murder of Tywin, especially with the chest that makes it possible for a dwarf to reach the crossbow. In short, from the narrative perspective, Oberyn poisoning Tywin to assure his revenge and Varys trying to kill Tywin in a different way to avert the suspicion from Dorne makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I believe Tywin was poisoned, but it makes much more sense for the poisoner to have been Varys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegars Heir Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Actually it was discussed before. Varys has to hide the poisoning because if Tywin was diagnosed to die from poison, Oberyn and Dorne would naturally get the blame. Then, the failing Lannister-Tyrell alliance would get a common enemy to hold on together. Dany was never the original plan and fAegon came without her. Dorne is central to fAegon's campaign. All the clever characters know that Dorne is not ready to defy their power yet. So, letting Dorne get the blame and be forced to fight the IT alone is like a suicide for fAegons campaign. Therefore, as soon as Varys confirmed the poisoning (Oberyn was not making it easy to miss that), he thought of another way to kill Tywin and cover the poisoning. And at the same time he didnt want to be known to be the killer. It works better for him if his hands stay clean. Varys is already despised in the Realm and any foul thing that benefits fAegon would be attributed to Varys and poison their PR campaign. We know that Varys has a plan to frame several parties for the assassination of Kevan and Pycelle. I think even if Jaime didnt force him to save Tyrion from the jail, he would still smuggle him out. He would still play reverse psychology on him to force him to kill Tywin. That chest under the crossbow gives this idea. And even if Tyrion did not go upstairs and kill Tywin, I bet Varys himself would kill him just like Kevan and Pycelle. In any case, missing Tyrion would be accused for the murder of Tywin, especially with the chest that makes it possible for a dwarf to reach the crossbow. In short, from the narrative perspective, Oberyn poisoning Tywin to assure his revenge and Varys trying to kill Tywin in a different way to avert the suspicion from Dorne makes sense.your missed my point it serves no narrative purpose if it doesn't come to light which at this point couldn't and is no differnt if he hadn't. also we've already gotten confirmation that it didn't happen so why are u still arguing that it did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I believe Tywin was poisoned, but it makes much more sense for the poisoner to have been Varys. I finally had a chance to listen to the podcast, and Ran and Linda seem convinced he wasn't poisoned by anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I finally had a chance to listen to the podcast, and Ran and Linda seem convinced he wasn't poisoned by anybody.What podcast is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Upthread I linked to a blog entry about a podcast where Ran and Linda debunked the theory: http://boiledleather...he-case-against The link to the podcast is there, they start talking about the theory like 35 minutes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Pie Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Amazing. Haven't seen something so convincing since R+L=J, also it's implied that Tyrion knew/had guessed, and maybe he shot his father as a final act of mercy. You know, to give the man a quick death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 So.... theory is officially dead? I can't listen right now. Do they give any other explanation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 also it's implied that Tyrion knew/had guessed, and maybe he shot his father as a final act of mercy. You know, to give the man a quick death.Umm wot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 So.... theory is officially dead? I can't listen right now. Do they give any other explanation? I don't consider it officially dead, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. After listening to the podcast I'm more convinced that Ran and Linda were not operating on any inside information from Martin. The explanation for the stinking corpse is something like "they didn't have embalming back then." Not very convincing because we get the impression that Tywin smells especially bad. Their main argument is that if Widows Blood shuts down the digestive system, he wouldn't crap himself even after taking an arrow to the belly and dying. I dunno how Widows Blood is supposed to work so it's hard to comment on that one. Of course Martin doesn't like to confirm things like this, so we'll probably never be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Pie Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Umm wotHe says he "expected to find him in the privy". Is there any time a day one expects their family members to be taking a shit? Nope. That implies he knew something. And he could have just left Tywin to his suffering and escaped, but he gave him a "clean", quick death instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 He says he "expected to find him in the privy". Is there any time a day one expects their family members to be taking a shit? Nope. That implies he knew something. And he could have just left Tywin to his suffering and escaped, but he gave him a "clean", quick death instead? Isn't that just because he's not in the other rooms in his little suite at the top of the Tower of the Hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Pie Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Isn't that just because he's not in the other rooms in his little suite at the top of the Tower of the Hand?Maybe, but why necessarily the privy? Maybe he's anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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