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Oberyn poisoned Tywin vol. 2


Mithras

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I don't consider it officially dead, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. After listening to the podcast I'm more convinced that Ran and Linda were not operating on any inside information from Martin. The explanation for the stinking corpse is something like "they didn't have embalming back then." Not very convincing because we get the impression that Tywin smells especially bad. Their main argument is that if Widows Blood shuts down the digestive system, he wouldn't crap himself even after taking an arrow to the belly and dying. I dunno how Widows Blood is supposed to work so it's hard to comment on that one.

Of course Martin doesn't like to confirm things like this, so we'll probably never be sure.

And the theory continues! :)

Isn't that just because he's not in the other rooms in his little suite at the top of the Tower of the Hand?

I thought so too..

Maybe, but why necessarily the privy? Maybe he's anywhere.

Because there was a girl in Tywin's bed, so he probably wasn't far away :)

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The "explanation" of it being impossible for him to have been poisoned with Widows blood is ridiculous in and of itself


(hardly worth explaining, absurd how they scoff at how the crossbow wouldn't have counteracted the widows blood and unclogged his bowels is beyond comprehension, the point is that he had been clogged up for so long that as soon as he died and that's why he emptied his bowels the instant he died, which for all the scientific explanations being offered they could have noted how people don't vacate their bowels the instant they die)


never mind the idea to dismiss the theory because one specific type of poison has been (theoretically) debunked, that the Red Viper who we've seen manipulate poisons already to the point of it being called sorcery, could no longer have possibly poisoned Tywin, without us knowing the exact poison and the exact symptoms that would ensue



On top of that the fact that them not having proper embalming materials at that time is a joke. Tywins corpse smell is noticeably, abnormally hideous to people like Jaime who I'm sure's been around a dead body or three. Nevermind that Pycelle himself back reels from the complaints with an explanation of how he had to take an abnormal amount of time working on the body and was uncharacteristically unsuccessful in doing so


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The "explanation" of it being impossible for him to have been poisoned with Widows blood is ridiculous in and of itself

(hardly worth explaining, absurd how they scoff at how the crossbow wouldn't have counteracted the widows blood and unclogged his bowels is beyond comprehension, the point is that he had been clogged up for so long that as soon as he died and that's why he emptied his bowels the instant he died, which for all the scientific explanations being offered they could have noted how people don't vacate their bowels the instant they die)

never mind the idea to dismiss the theory because one specific type of poison has been (theoretically) debunked, that the Red Viper who we've seen manipulate poisons already to the point of it being called sorcery, could no longer have possibly poisoned Tywin, without us knowing the exact poison and the exact symptoms that would ensue

On top of that the fact that them not having proper embalming materials at that time is a joke. Tywins corpse smell is noticeably, abnormally hideous to people like Jaime who I'm sure's been around a dead body or three. Nevermind that Pycelle himself back reels from the complaints with an explanation of how he had to take an abnormal amount of time working on the body and was uncharacteristically unsuccessful in doing so

I think their argument is that Widows Blood totally shuts down the digestive system, so the food he ate wouldn't even make it down to the colon.

I always assumed the viper didn't manipulate the poison himself, as I don't think it's ever suggested has an knowledge of sorcery. I figured he just bought it somewhere from some sage or warlock who manipulated it.

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As for bumping, let me make a small point about Oberyn's original plan.

We know that Widow's Blood is one of the slowest working poisons. Tears of Lys is faster than it, yet Maester Colemon was able to purge it from Jon Arryn and he was going to heal him had Pycelle not intervened.

So a standard Widow's Blood has a small chance to kill Tywin because Pycelle should be more than capable of giving the right treatment for it.

But wait. Oberyn magically enhanced the manticore venom he used on Gregor. That baffled Pycelle, who is a man of science. Only a highly unorthodox "maester" like Qyburn was able to identify it. Pycelle even didnot believe it was manticore venom.

All these mean that the Widow's Blood used by Oberyn should be magically enhanced to make sure that it cannot be healed by a standard maester.

What a superbly put together post,always liked the conversation about the book between Oberyn and Tyrion and always felt it meant something,love how you identified it and I'm left in no doubt that they're talking about Tywin.

Oberyn didn't just come to KL for nothing he came with a plan and I believe you got it bang on,I'm sure when he knew about him taking on Gregor would of been the time for him to poison Tywin?

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I was already convinced when the original theory came out, I'm even more now thanks to your well thought and organised post.


Bravo, Paper Waver.



Also this



I actually do disagree with their main point: using Doran's words as a way to debunk Oberyn's poisoning is nonsense because that's absolutely not a guarantee of sort.




Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes. Your father and I worked more closely than you know …



The text proves us many times that Doran isn't in real control of his family: the Sand Snakes raised the smallfolk to war without his permission, he let Arianne try her folly to make her fail and grow up, but couldn't foresee the consequences (and apparently in Dorne anyone and their dog know that Darkstar is supposed to be a very dangerous man, so good job Doran) and most importantly Oberyn already raised an army once to avenge his sister without Doran's permission.


Doran may be the Grass that Hides, but that doesn't forbid the Viper to have his own agenda despite some eventual collaboration. Especially since Oberyn proved to desire a more direct vengeance before the AGoT events and on scene as well (seeking for Amory Lorch, the whole Mountain business).



It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure.



Tywin's official death cause is by crossbolt. That's what Doran can know, since he wasn't at King's Landing during the events and relies only on secondary info.


Be it that Doran planned Tywin's death and sent Oberyn to do the killing (the text doesn't suggest this idea), or most likely be it that Doran just sent Oberyn to recon, the info that Doran receives do not relate Oberyn and Tywin's death at all.


If like I believe Tywin was also poisoned, there is no absolutely no way for Doran to know it.


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  • 2 weeks later...

He says he "expected to find him in the privy". Is there any time a day one expects their family members to be taking a shit? Nope. That implies he knew something. And he could have just left Tywin to his suffering and escaped, but he gave him a "clean", quick death instead?

The problem with this idea is that we're inside Tyrion's head and, in Book 5, he never once thinks about giving Tywin a "clean" death or that Tywin had been poisoned. No to mention that, given Tyrion's mindset at the time he confronted Tywin, why on Earth would he want to do anything to alleviate Tywin's suffering in the first place?

I'm ambivalent on the poisoning theory, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that Tyrion thought (before or after) that Tywin had been poisoned.

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The problem with this idea is that we're inside Tyrion's head and, in Book 5, he never once thinks about giving Tywin a "clean" death or that Tywin had been poisoned. No to mention that, given Tyrion's mindset at the time he confronted Tywin, why on Earth would he want to do anything to alleviate Tywin's suffering in the first place?

Also in his first ADWD chapter Tyrion thinks back to when he killed his father. It is clear he had no thought that Tywin might already have been fatally poisoned.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Interesting how someone whom isn't the author knows exactly how Widow's Blood is supposed to work. As if this Checkov's gun is entirely meaningless. GRRM admitted in Entertainment Weekly how there was more behind the death of Tywin that hasn't been revealed. He also mentions there is a Varys component that hasn't been revealed as well.



Anyway, there is a real easy way to reconcile the Varys theory and the Oberyn theory.



Varys hears whispers that Tywin was poisoned. Keeping an eye on Tywin's activities it is confirmed Tywin hasn't taken a shit in several days. That night Varys delivers Shae to the Hand's bedroom and uncovers that Tywin has been struggling in the privy for quite some time.



If Tywin dies of poison with Tyrion locked up (or executed by that time) , suspicion will be directed at the Dornish. Varys wants to split the alliance of the Lannisters and Tyrells hoping both the Reach and Dorne will back Aegon. He can't afford a war with Dorne while this alliance with the Tyrells is intact. Getting the Tyrells to work with the Dornish will become much more challenging if they are already on opposite sides in a war.



Knowing Jaime loves Tyrion, Varys visits Jaime who of course asks for a way to save his brother, and Varys agrees to help.


Varys may have hinted this would be the last time Jaime would see Tyrion. Basically pointing out that if Jaime has any confessions to make towards Tyrion, this will be his last opportunity.



The rest plays out just as Varys hoped. But even if Tyrion didn't taken the bait and kill Tywin outright, Tyrion could still be blamed for the poison that kills Tywin since Tyrion escaping provides the opportunity. He was just convicted of poisoning the king.



I think Oberyn poisoned Tywin and Varys covered it up in order to stall a war breaking out with Dorne. He also alerts Doran to Cersei's plot to have Trystane killed and Tyrion blamed for the same reason. Varys needs time for Cersei to break the connection with the Tyrells.



Varys may have learned of the plot prior to the poisoning taking place and allowed it to happen. Varys definitely wouldn't want Tywin in power when Aegon is revealed. He is probably just manipulating the situation to his advantage in order to avoid any nasty consequences.


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Interesting how someone whom isn't the author knows exactly how Widow's Blood is supposed to work. As if this Checkov's gun is entirely meaningless. GRRM admitted in Entertainment Weekly how there was more behind the death of Tywin that hasn't been revealed. He also mentions there is a Varys component that hasn't been revealed as well.

Context is important:

Right, and there’s also the surprise at Tywin’s hypocrisy when he finds her in his bed. Did Tywin know she was a prostitute [in the book version that's not clear]? Or did he just not care?

Oh, I think Tywin knew about Shae. He probably figured out she was the same camp-follower that he expressly said “you will not bring that whore to court,” and that Tyrion defied him again and did bring that whore to court. As to precisely what happened here, that’s something I don’t really want to talk about because there’s still aspects of it I haven’t revealed that will be revealed in later books. But the role of Varys in all of this is also something to be considered.

It’s also worth mentioning Shae is one of the characters that really has changed significantly from the books to the TV show. I think that [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] wrote Shae very differently, and a symbol to Sibel Kekilli — the incredible girl playing her. Shae is much more sincere in her affections for Tyrion. This is almost contradictory, but with the Shae in the TV series, you can tell she actually has real feelings for Tyrion — she challenges him, she defies him. The Shae in the books is a manipulative camp-follower prostitute who doesn’t give a s–t about Tyrion...

Seems to me he's talking about the role of Varys in Tywin knowing about Shae, and possibly bringing her to the Tower of the Hand. Not about Tywin's death.

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I don't know why people think Tywin was poisoned. These hints and or foreshadowing are weak at best. Tywin was taking a shit at night. I have news for you, old people need to make frequent bathroom trips at night. He didn't shit until he died because his son was pointing a crossbow at his nuts, had a crazy look in his eye, was fleeing after a jailbreak, and was rehashing the most humiliating event of his life - the time his father forced him to participate in the gang rape of his wife, and promised to shoot him if he said his favorite word, whore, once more. That'd make anybody clench up.



Perhaps Oberyn intended to eventually poison Tywin once he got some more evidence / a confession out of the Mountain. Before that, there wasn't exactly a good reason to do so.


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Context is important:

Seems to me he's talking about the role of Varys in Tywin knowing about Shae, and possibly bringing her to the Tower of the Hand. Not about Tywin's death.

If that is all he is referring to then I've taken dumps with more drama and suspense. Varys is playing the Game of Thrones, not hide and seek with the funny whore. Of course he delivered Shae to the Tower of the Hand.

The larger context is the death of Tywin, which just occurred in the episode they are discussing.

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